4 Cyl Oil Change intervals

J

Jim

My dealer insists that I change the oil in my 03 OBW 4 Cyl every 3K whether
they do it, I do it or someone else. The book says 7500. A guy that writes
an Auto Column in my local paper never lets a week go by that he doesn't
harp that 3K oil changes are so important - more so in hotter running newer
cars. He writes that his shop does 100 cars a week so he knows what he is
talking about. Always brings up the Toyota fiasco of a few years back where
they sludged up when changed at 7500 and no sludge when done at 3K. Who am I
to believe?? I was going to settle on 5K w/ filter? I do a lot of highway
driving.
Jim
 
I also do about 50 percent highway driving and I change oil and filter at
5,000 miles. My Forester engine has no sludge( l looked with a small mirror
inside the sump at the 55,000 mile oil change) and the oil is medium brown
when drained. When the car was broke-in at about 3000 miles I sent samples
of my used oil to Mobil oil company. Samples were sent from 7,500 and 3,000
miles oil changes. There was NO significant difference demonstrated and
samples were classified "excellent". Based on the test results I opted for
5,000 mile changes. Subaru doesn't even recommend a 3,000 mile change for
severe. Unfortunately there are too many self appointed experts and other
who insist on hanging on to a change recommendation that is 20 years old. My
laboratory test demonstrate that if 1/3 to 1/5 or more of your miles are
highway miles then 7,500 miles changes are fine. In fact my friend Legacy
which has 264,000 miles on it changes oil at 10,000 miles but, 90 % of his
driving is highway. As far as someone telling me that Toyota had a sludge
problem so it's a Subaru problem is nonsense. Toyota had designed an oil
sump that did not allow all areas to be sweep as the oil was circulated.
This was a design mistake and not an oil change problem. Eddie
 
This subject always stirs up a lot of controversy. Last year I went 19K
with a filter change at 10K. Sent the oil in for analysis and it came
back fit for continued use with filter change. I use Amsoil 0w-30 with
their filters. Yes I am a dealer, but mainly so I can buy the oil at a
better price. Have used their products since 1978. They were the first
API approve synthetic, 1972.
 
Jack said:
insist that counting mileage is wrong. They go by time and change
every three months. Their reasoning, if you are a low mileage driver

Ever notice that many industrial type engines (aircraft, tractors,
stationary engines, etc) have a Hobbs meter (counts hours of operation),
and that many tests done on motor oil are set up according to hours of
operation?

Your idea makes more sense than not. If you dig out your calculator and
play a bit, you'll find more than a casual correlation between the
number of hours the engine runs if you drive 7500 miles at 60-70 mph vs
3000 miles at 30 mph.

I'm wondering out loud if the new systems where the car "tells" you when
to change oil are simply glorified Hobbs meters run thru the vehicle's
computer?

Rick
 
I like the reasoning behind the hours/time interval. Aircraft also use the
hours interval for oil changes /tune-ups and overhauls. The only
disadvantage is the buyer of your car want may want to see service records.
I'm against two sets of book, but I may go with the time interval on my next
new vehicle. Eddie
 
I couldn't agree more! For the average driver, changing oil every season (ie
every three months) best insures the engine is kept clean.
 
Here is an interesting article on oil changes that appeared on an automotive
newsletter here in Ontario, Canada.
I also wrote last week about a local performance shop that sells Amsoil
synthetic oil, and leave the oil in for 20,000 km (12,000 mi), but change
the filter every 5,000 km (3,000 mi) with an Amsoil filter (finer filtering
than standard filter). They had a Camry come in for valve seal replacement
at 260,000 km, and they told me the honing marks on the cylinder walls from
manufacturing were still visible, indicating a very slippery oil! Also, any
of the oil tests you look at show that synthetics don't sludge up like crude
derived oils, hence their suitability for longer drain intervals with less
wear than crude oil products changed at much shorter intervals, due to the
crude oils breaking down quite quickly, and synthetics not breaking down, or
at least very slowly. Also heard from several sources of increased fuel
mileage with synthetics, due to the friction reduction.
Ed B.



March 31, 2003

Opinion:
Synthetic motor oil
by Phil Bailey

About ten years ago, when I was a local bright light in the Montreal radio
world, I used to be approached to test a lot of automotive products. One
such product was called 'Motrlube' and was being produced by a chemical
company in Montreal. Initially, this company, in conjunction with the
National Research Council, had been asked to develop a non freezing grease
for the old fire hydrants in the city. Unfortunately, the synthetic grease
they produced worked so well that the city's needs for the following years
were far less than expected, so the company set out to find another outlet
for its research and decided upon motor oil as a strong possibility.

The secret was that this company had developed a catalyst that allowed them
to blend together three different polyalphaolefins (PAOs) to produce a very
superior product at low cost. As it happened, I was leaving for a 1300 Km
run to Halifax the next week in my Golf, so I poured 4 litres of this dark
brown brew into my engine, along with a new filter and off I went.

Now, I had previously driven as far West as Calgary, for the usual reason.
When working on a project, I would take my car to the site and fly home
every weekend. Sometimes these projects would last for months, so I made
some extra money and the client saved a bundle on rental car fees. As anyone
knows, who drives long distances, one gets used to the rhythm and sound of
the car. No need to watch the speedometer, you just know when you are
traveling at a good cruising speed. I usually try to drive just 'under the
radar' at about 117 Km/hour.

Somewhere west of Quebec City, on the long run to Riviere du Loup, I
happened to glance down at the speedometer and found myself running at 135
Km/hour. Foot off the loud pedal, settle down again, back up to 135K. The
engine was running very smoothly indeed and I began to realize that this
brown liquid in the engine was the reason for this quiet running. Usually, I
achieved about 37 mpg on such a run. On this run I got over 41 mpg at a
higher running speed.

Since that day, I've used Motrlube, a company now based in Calgary, in all
my cars. At that time, the Motrlube company claimed that the product was
good for two years or 60,000 Km between oil changes. I decided to push the
envelope and went for 3 years and 100K without an oil change. I changed the
filter every year and at that time I sent a sample to a laboratory for
analysis. The lab conclusion in every case was "do not change the oil'. Now
this old faithful car of mine, is used for winter driving only. It has
400,000 Km on the clock and the body is held together with epoxy putty, but
the engine starts first time in winter and has never been opened up for any
reason except to change timing belts. It still burns no oil. I'm pretty sure
that the use of pure PAO synthetics has produced this result. Equally, I use
synthetics in the gearbox, which makes VWs notoriously reluctant gearbox
work much better in very cold weather.

Ten years later, everyone has a long life product, but there are still only
a handful of pure PAO products on the market. Amsoil, Redline and Motrlube
are three of the ones I know well and they are all very good products. (You
can find the websites of all these companies through the Canadian Driver web
index). Castrol, egged on by Audi, recently launched SLX Longlife II In
Europe. And this oil has the ability to keep some engines operating for up
to a staggering 30,000 miles (50,000 Km ) between changes. (Castrol's words,
not mine). This Audi Variable Service concept (AVS) first appeared in the
European A2 - a car designed without a hood for "minimal mechanical
interference by the owner' - quote.





-2-





The low maintenance idea has been extended to other cars in the Audi range
since, and Longlife gives these cars the potential to cover up to 19,000
miles (30,000 Km ) between services. Audi's V6 TDI diesels can cover as many
as 22,000 miles (36,000 Km ) before draining the sump and four-cylinder TDI
diesels might, in the right circumstances, avoid mechanics for up to 30,000
miles.

Audi spokesman David Goosey said "This oil has been developed to maintain
its viscosity characteristics, and so deliver the key benefits of fuel
efficiency and wear protection, throughout far longer oil drain intervals."

Under AVS, Audi drivers no longer need to adhere to a traditional service
plan. Instead, new Audis have an on-board system, which monitors both
current engine condition, and the type of motoring the car has typically
endured. It then tells the driver when a service is required via the
instrument panel.

Last time I was in the UK, I priced this product and it was selling for $20
a litre, which leads me to believe that this is definitely a pure PAO
product.

So what about the $7 products that we can buy over here? Products such as
Castrol Syntec and Mobil1? Well, these products have a very good performance
level, but cannot match the life of the pure PAO formulations. To start at
the beginning, ordinary engine oil is a by-product of the refining process
and becomes available whether the refiner wants it or not. As a lubricant,
it has very little value at all until it is doctored with a group of
additives, from which comes the viscosity and durability rating shown on the
container. As we all are aware, the basic raw material is a very viscous
black goo, that has to be diluted with solvents at the refinery so that it
can be processed.

Unfortunately, these solvents are carried over with the lubricating oil
fraction and are the major reason for the rapid deterioration of the
additives in less expensive oils. Within 2000 Km or so, low cost oil is not
doing much of a job of lubricating your engine. At high temperatures, this
oil carbonises rapidly and most of the black residue that drains out at an
oil change is not engine wear, but burnt, deteriorated, oil that has
carbonised itself into oblivion.

A $1.50/litre motor oil, no matter what the brand name, should not be left
in your engine for more than 5000 Km. 100% recycled oil, selling for eighty
eight cents per litre in the big retail stores, has hit the market. Note
that even these oils have an SF/CC rating, which only goes to show how low
these standards really can be. So that, in general, ordinary engine oil has
not improved much in the last five years or so.

Now next up are the "100%' synthetics which carry a little disclaimer on
their label: " not including carrier oil". These products are known as
Hydrogenated Esters (HE) and are just properly modified and reprocessed
mineral oils, although they certainly perform much more adequately and are
probably good for 24,000 Km between drain periods, with regular filter
changes.





-3-





Fourth generation products, are now available, as used in the aircraft
industry, where oil changes are uncommon, at least in jet planes. If one can
find a way of formulating a PAO (polymer) based product containing no
mineral oil whatsoever, at an affordable price, then one has a fourth
generation engine lubricant that can remain in an engine, almost until the
engine is rebuilt.

Filtration of pure PAO lubricants is not challenging for the filter because
no carbon is present, and the filter is doing what it should do, eliminating
the odd metal particle.

If you have a new car and wish to comply entirely with your warranty, then
your owner's manual calls for an oil change every 12,000 Km. Changing a pure
PAO product at this distance is major overkill, but costs only $65 on
average and is therefore no more expensive than cheap oil changed every 4000
Km, particularly if the latter service is done at a dealership.

Another common objection to leaving oil in an engine for long periods of
time is contamination from products of combustion. In the case of mineral
oil, one can actually form an emulsion with water, resulting in a beige
coloured `mayonnaise' that is some times seen on oil filler caps. By
contrast, PAO based lubricants shrug off water and acids and will not form
emulsions. Consequently, as soon as the engine lubricant reaches the boiling
point of the condensables, PAO's reject them through the PCV valve and go
back to doing their job of lubricating the engine, completely unaffected by
diluents of any kind.

And now, let's put to bed all the objections you will hear concerning the
use of synthetic engine lubricants:

Myth #1: Synthetic motor oils damage seals.
Untrue. It would be foolhardy for lubricant manufacturers to build a product
that is incompatible with seals. The composition of seals presents problems
that both petroleum oils and synthetics must overcome. Made from elastomers,
seals are inherently difficult to standardize. Ultimately it is the additive
mix in the oil that counts. Additives to control seal swell, shrinkage and
hardening are required, whether it be a synthetic or petroleum product that
is being produced.

Myth #2: Synthetics are too thin to stay in the engine.
Untrue. In order for a lubricant to be classified in any SAE grade (10W-30,
10W-40, etc) it has to meet certain guidelines with regard to viscosity
("thickness"). For example, it makes no difference whether it is 10W-40
petroleum or 10W-40 synthetic, at -25 degrees centigrade (-13F) and 100
degrees centigrade (212 degrees F) that oil has to maintain a standardized
viscosity or it can't be rated a 10W-40.

Myth #3: Synthetics cause cars to use more oil.
Untrue. Synthetic motor oils are intended to use in mechanically sound
engines, that is, engines that don't leak. In such engines oil consumption
will actually be reduced. First, because of the lower volatility of
synlubes. Second, because of the better sealing characteristics between
piston rings and cylinder walls. And finally, because of the superior
oxidation stability (i.e. resistance of synthetics against reacting with
oxygen at high temperatures.)



-4-





Myth #4: Synthetic lubricants are not compatible with petroleum.
Untrue. The synthesized hydrocarbons, polyalphaolefins, diesters and other
materials that form the base stocks of high quality name brand synthetics
are fully compatible with petroleum oils. In the old days, some companies
used untested ingredients that were not compatible, causing quality
synthetic lubricants to suffer a bad reputation. Fortunately, those days are
long gone. Compatibility is something to keep in mind, however, whether
using petroleum oils or synthetics. It is usually best to use the same oil
for topping off that you have been running in the engine. That is, it is
preferable to not mix your oils, even if it is Valvoline or Quaker State you
are using. The reason is this: the functions of additives blended for
specific characteristics can be offset when oils with different additive
packages are put together. For optimal performance, it is better to use the
same oil throughout.

Myth#5: Synthetic lubricants are not readily available.
Untrue. This may have been the case two decades ago when AMSOIL and Mobil1
were the only real choices, but today nearly every major oil company has
added a synthetic product to their lines. This in itself is a testament to
the value synthetics offer.

Myth #6: Synthetic lubricants produce sludge
Untrue. In point of fact, synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant
than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high
temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things
happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil
thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum
base stocks begin to react with each other, forming sludge, gums and
varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the
timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further
negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to
critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy. Because of their
higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and
oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development.

Myth #7: Synthetics can't be used with catalytic converters or oxygen
sensors.
Untrue. In fact the very low ash content of synthetics will extend the life
of every exhaust system component.

Myth #8: Synthetics void warranties.
Untrue. No major manufacturer of automobiles specifically bans the use of
synthetic lubricants. In point of fact, increasing numbers of high
performance cars are arriving on the showroom floors with synthetic motor
oils as factory fill. Which may not make the dealers too happy since oil
changes usually lead to other service work.

Myth #9: Synthetics last forever.
Untrue. Although some experts feel that synthetic base stocks themselves can
be used forever, it is well known that eventually the additives will falter
and cause the oil to require changing. However, by "topping off", additives
can be replenished. Through good filtration and periodic oil analysis,
synthetic motor oils protect an engine for lengths of time far beyond the
capability of non synthetics.





-5-





Myth #10: Synthetics are too expensive.
Untrue. Tests and experience have proven that synthetics can greatly extend
drain intervals, provide better fuel economy, reduce engine wear and enable
vehicles to operate with greater reliability. All these elements combine to
make synthetic engine lubricants more economical that conventional non
synthetics. In Europe, synthetics have enjoyed increasing acceptance as car
buyers look first to performance and long term value rather than initial
price. As more sophisticated technology places greater demands on today's
motor oils, we will no doubt see an increasing re-evaluation of oil buying
habits in this country as well.

Conclusions
Since their inception, manufacturers of synthetic motor oils have sought to
educate the public about the facts regarding synthetics, and the need for
consumers to make their lubrication purchasing decisions based on quality
rather than price. As was the case with microwave ovens or electric lights,
a highly technological improvement must often overcome a fair amount of
public skepticism and consumer inertia before it is embraced by the general
population. But the word is getting out as a growing number of motorists
worldwide experience the benefits of synthetic lubrication. The wave of the
future, in auto lubes, is well under way.

For the environmental enthusiasts, the use of synthetics could reduce waste
oil disposal by 80%, so if environment is your thing, then synthetic
lubricants should be your choice. As a footnote, we have tried to sell
expensive synthetics on the environmental argument, with no great success.
Unless you can also show an economic advantage, the general public will not
invest.

The opinions in this article do not necessarily represent those of the
editors or the publisher of Canadian Driver Inc. Montreal-based Phil Bailey
is a mechanical engineer, garage owner, journalist and TV and radio
personality who was a former rally driver and press relations officer for
Mont Tremblant race track. He can be reached at (e-mail address removed)

© 1999-2003, Canadian Driver Communications Inc., all rights reserved
 
Hi,
My understanding is oil itself is not the problem the additives(all kind
of chemicals) will deplete. Don't think replacing filter alone will do.
I just replace oil(dino juice) and filter every 8000Km ALL the time.
MY rule of replacing car is when it springs an oil leak underneath.
My cars last 10 years easily without any major problem.
IMO, just for ordinary driving, regular oil/filter change with good
ordinary oil is enough. If you really want to protect engine, install a
oil primer. Most wear is when you start engine which runs pretty dry
until oil starts circulating creating an oil film barrier between metal
parts.
Tony
 
I agree with Tony that it's the additives that give-up although Synthetics
have much fewer additives. I think the main reason to change any oil is to
get rid of the water that accumulated from combustion by-products. Short
drives that do not bring the oil up to temp to boil off water is the worst.
Eddie
 
I suppose Amsoil is good but I wonder why Porsche, Corvette, and Honda
racing + many NASCARs use Mobil-1. What major car company that manufactures
high performance cars use Amsoil. I may be mistaken but I don't think ANY
car manufactures recommends Amsoil and I have to wonder why. Honda racing
did extensive testing of many major oils and chose Mobil-1. eddie
 
Jim said:
My dealer insists that I change the oil in my 03 OBW 4 Cyl every 3K whether
they do it, I do it or someone else. The book says 7500. A guy that writes
an Auto Column in my local paper never lets a week go by that he doesn't
harp that 3K oil changes are so important - more so in hotter running newer
cars. He writes that his shop does 100 cars a week so he knows what he is
talking about. Always brings up the Toyota fiasco of a few years back where
they sludged up when changed at 7500 and no sludge when done at 3K. Who am I
to believe?? I was going to settle on 5K w/ filter? I do a lot of highway
driving.
Jim

The Toyota fiasco had to do with a design problem with that particular
engine, and I think it unwise to generalize about all car engines based
on that anomaly (although I understand some Hondas engines had a similar
problem). I checked into it because I own a Chrysler product that also
has an engine (2.7L) that is prone to sludging up and failing
prematurely if oil is not changed on a very regular schedule, and
thought there might be a common cause from which I could learn.

The best I've been able to determine, the problems with those two
engines are related to compromises being made in the oil passages to
make some miniscule gains in emissions (having to do with crankcase
ventilation). The smaller oil passages simply make the whole lube
system very sensitive to small residue buildups which turns what would
be a non-problem in a properly designed lubrication system into a
serious one in those particular engines.

It's not a bad idea to change oil at 3000 to 4000 mile intervals, but I
wouldn't base that decision on the Toyota engine that had a particular
design problem that is not common to all engines.

FWIW, I use Marvel Mystery Oil (1/4 qt. with each oil change) and change
oil and filter every 3000 to 3500 miles in my Chrysler with the
sludge-prone engine to prevent sludge buildup - so far so good - it's at
98k miles with no problems. (Actually I use MMO in all my cars as extra
insurance.)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
 
Hi,
By any chance, do you have some Amsoil stocks? Just wondering.
For ordinary driving synthetic oil is overkill, IMO.
Tony
 
Mobil-1 does not recommend a 3000 mile change interval. Originally they
promoted a 20,000? mile change interval, but US manufactures said it would
void ware so Mobil suggested going for manufactures recommendations during
the warrantee period and at that time they instituted the 1,000,000 mi
engine warrantee for any oil related problems. Both great oils I think so
use what pleases you even if it's the one they put Royal purple dye in. Good
driving eddie
 
Mobil did a test a few years ago (I believe it is on the Mobil
website, where they ran a BMW a million miles on a dyno with Mobil 1,
then tore the engine down. At a million miles the engine was still
within spec. That is a pretty powerful argument for me.

I have a friend who builds and maintains racing engines who
is a huge supporter of synthetics. He said he's had one of his
cars drive a lap after losing all the oil in the engine
with no damage. I wouldn't want to run my own engine that way,
but it helps to know there's some protection available.

The same guy has also torn apart engines run with non-synthetic
oil which have gone over 200,000 kms with no significant wear.
 
Because Mobil is a huge company and can afford to pay people to use the
product? I was involved with a team sponsored by a major oil but they used
something else....nice yellow stickers on the car but something else in the
engine...very common. TG
 
Some say using synthetics is over kill. So is the idea that we buy
20-30-40 thousand plus dollar vehicles. Overkill to use the best to
protect them?

Comment on race cars using one oil while having a different decal on the
car. This is called brown bagging. Teams will use whatever it takes to
win as long as they get the money from their sponsors, everyone is
happy.

Amsoil just celebrated its 30th anniversary. One of the quest speakers
was Bobby Unser. The Unser family have been long term friends of the
owner of Amsoil. They have used and tested for years for Amsoil. I
wonder what they may have in their crankcases.
 
Are you an Amsoil dealer?
Edward Hayes said:
Mobil-1 does not recommend a 3000 mile change interval. Originally they
promoted a 20,000? mile change interval, but US manufactures said it would
void ware so Mobil suggested going for manufactures recommendations during
the warrantee period and at that time they instituted the 1,000,000 mi
engine warrantee for any oil related problems. Both great oils I think so
use what pleases you even if it's the one they put Royal purple dye in. Good
driving eddie
 
I am not an Amsoil dealer and do not use or recommend it as it's overpriced
and etc etc. eddie
 

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