Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[nobody >]

This is another subject with no answer that satisfies everyone.

My own experience on "Orange Fram" filters was blowing one up while
priming a rebuilt 283 Chev small-block oil system (with a 3/8th's drill)
back in the '60s. (and for the astute, yes: I had an aftermarket
spin-on adapter on that block)

Since then, I don't buy "Orange Fram"....

Here it comes......

Damned oil filter Nazis...

(ducking the brick shower coming)

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

You mean end of self absorbed delirium. Obviously you can't remember what
it is you originally posted about.

-jim

Still a meathead, I see. Good to know some things never change.
Not really. It's just an old cliche.

It would be nice if, once in a while, you chimed in on a discussion where
you actually added some value, instead of trying to make yourself look
like the only person in the world who knows anything, and everyone else is
just an idiot.

And I remember full well what my original post was concerning. I threw in
the 3,000 miles to indicate when the next oil change might be, and also
mentioned I was changing the oil in the Soob soon. But being myopic as you
are, you focused on one thing and ran with it.

Why don't you go haunt a castle in Scotland or something?

For all you actually manage to add to a discussion, it would amount to
about the same.

I'm not going to start this bullshit with you again like in the Honda
group, or the last oil change discussion. Add something or just STFU.
please.

 

[Nate Nagel]

Yeah and everybody knows the moon is made of green cheese. BTW which way
is upside down for a filter/

Base up. Base down doesn't require an ADBV unless there's a siphon
effect somehow.

nate

 

[jim]

:

I just find it funny that on three older cars, replacing the existing
filter with a Fram resulted in lower oil pressures.

It doesn't take much to amuse a dim wit.

You may well get higher pressure with a a filter that has less
resistance. This is not unusual for any worn out engine that doesn't
generate enough extra pressure to push the pressure relief valve open.
That doesn't mean the other filter is better. One of the consequences of
using the filters that don't filter as good is an accumulation of fines
and more wear. The wear is the actual cause of the low oil pressure.

-jim

 

[Nate Nagel]

Base up. Base down doesn't require an ADBV unless there's a siphon
effect somehow.

FRAG! I knew what I was thinking, but typed the exact opposite.

Base UP (as in a SBC and most other old school V-8s with an integral
filter mount) is "normal." Base DOWN (e.g. slant-six, Porsche 944, old
Ferrari V-12, etc.) *requires* an ADBV, either as part of the filter or
part of the base.

nate

 

[nm5k]

I've seen rebuilt engines that are beaters.

Mine is not. It still runs as well today as it did in 2002 when I
installed it. Which is like new I might add. No runs, no drips,
no errors.. Except for when I tried to use a Fram filter and it
clacked
very loudly in protest. I didn't let it run long enough to hurt
anything, and
I never raised it off idle until I finally had pressure.

It's not a fact and your account of one  experience is hardly proof. The studies
I have seen give the drain back valve on Fram a good rating. Your proof is one
experience against millions. Any filter's drain back valve will leak if apiece
of crud happens to prevent it from sealing. That possibility is most likely on a
freshly rebuilt engine.
        And the drain back valve have nothing to do with the operating oil pressure,
which was the topic of this thread.  

-jim

I can round you up a whole boatload of people that have seen
the same exact problem. This is a well known issue involving many
people. It's not something I just made up to look stylish.
I don't care what the "studies" say. They are not using them in the
same applications and filter positions.

There have already been two others just in this thread alone that
seem to be well aware of the problem besides me.
Trust me, compared to the anti drain valve on the Motorcraft filter,
the ones in regular orange Fram filters suck.
Period. And I've proven to myself on my own vehicle. I've never seen
the problem with any other filter on that engine. Only the Fram.
Many others have proven it to themselves also. It's a common topic
on the Ford truck forums I hang out on.
But it's also a known problem with the Mopar slant six 229's.
As far as the "dropping oil pressure", I'd say starting an engine when
cold and waiting extended periods of time for *any* oil pressure would
qualify. It's not anything one would normally miss being as the
engine
will be clacking like crazy.
Think what you want, but you will never see me using a Fram filter
again, even if they do work acceptably in many other applications.
Which I'm sure they probably do.. They don't work in all of them
though, and the other brands do.
I know which line I'll be in and it won't be the one with the big "F"
up at the window. :/

 

[clare]

Interesting, since they are 'made' by Honeywell, which is a fairly
reputable company.

They were junk when they were Allied Signal, and when they were their
own company before that. Who the "banker" is doesn't improve quality.

 

[Nate Nagel]

They were junk when they were Allied Signal, and when they were their
own company before that. Who the "banker" is doesn't improve quality.

way, WAY back in the day, they were apparently pretty good. And from
what I've heard the media in their air filters is decent, it's just the
*construction* of the oil filters that is suspect.

nate

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

It doesn't take much to amuse <SLAP!>

Go away, you irritating man. Isn't there the underside of a rock just
about your size?

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

They were junk when they were Allied Signal, and when they were their own
company before that. Who the "banker" is doesn't improve quality.

LOL! But, adding to another part of this thread, whatever happened to Lee?
I used them in all my Toyotas until ~1986 and had no problems at all with
them!

 

[Daniel Who Wants to Know]

Put a Wix 51515 on it and you won't have a problem again.

Daniel
Bought a 95 Grand Caravan SE 3.3l with 223,000 miles on it for $800 and
immediatly changed to a 51515 and Mobil 1 5w30 non-EP. I have 10k miles of
my own on the van now and the engine is still going strong.

That number sounds familiar... same filter as a 225 leaning tower of
power maybe?

nate


The 51515 is AKA a Motorcraft FL1A. It is the filter specified for most
Fords and is just a longer version of the 51085 that is speced for the
Chryslers. The even larger version is the 51773 but according to Wix it
only has a 30 micron rating whereas the 51515 and 51085 have a 19 micron
rating therefore it may be useful for cleaning up a sludged and/or neglected
engine.

 

[clare]

way, WAY back in the day, they were apparently pretty good. And from
what I've heard the media in their air filters is decent, it's just the
*construction* of the oil filters that is suspect.

nate

Their quality "went south" in the late '60s or early '70s in a big
way. That said, they were NEVER as good as a Wix or a Hastings /
Casite even back then.

 

[clare]

That number sounds familiar... same filter as a 225 leaning tower of
power maybe?

nate


The 51515 is AKA a Motorcraft FL1A. It is the filter specified for most
Fords and is just a longer version of the 51085 that is speced for the
Chryslers. The even larger version is the 51773 but according to Wix it
only has a 30 micron rating whereas the 51515 and 51085 have a 19 micron
rating therefore it may be useful for cleaning up a sludged and/or neglected
engine.

Yes, the FL1A is the same application as the Fram PH8A - fit Ford,
Mopar, Toyota, and many other apps.

 

[Fatter Than Ever Moe]

Go away, you irritating man. Isn't there the underside of a rock just
about your size?

Someone volunteer to to put two accurate oil pressure gauges on
something, say a 98 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder. One before the filter, one
after. The pressure differential will indicated the amount of pressure
drop when the filter is new, if the relief is working when cold, and the
amount of resistance as the filter clogs up and if the filter media
ruptures. Also need a couple of accurate flow meter to determine volume
of oil in the different flow circuits and of course a temp gauge at the
entrance to the oil filter, and a recording chart or maybe a software
program and laptop to record all the numbers....... then come up with
the specs on what a filter should do for how long and keep the cost
under 4 dollars retail.
PRESTO ! You have reinvented the wheel!
Or you could do like I used to do with my old 73 Chev Nova SS 6
cylinder, carry a spare filter, the oil pressure sender on that one was
after the filter, when the pressure dropped with a warm engine I
changed the filter.
Whatever, I use Fram, they meet factory specs and do the job for my
kind of driving. If you are really worried about engine life, drive
easy until the engine is warmed up, then keep driving easy and you
should get all the designed life from the engine and probably quite a
bit more.
The national debt on Nov 20, 2009 was
12,010,561,742,215.21

 

[ben91932]

NOPE! After I changed the oil and took it for a test, the oil pressure
guage had dropped a whole mark off halfway! I don't believe it!

My wag (wild ass guess) is that the prior owner had motor honey in it
to prop up the pressure, and if I'm right all the filter changes wont
help. I sure hope I'm wrong as a lower end is a bit more $ than a
filter.
Ben

 

[jim]

Someone volunteer to to put two accurate oil pressure gauges on
something, say a 98 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder. One before the filter, one
after. The pressure differential will indicated the amount of pressure
drop when the filter is new, if the relief is working when cold, and the
amount of resistance as the filter clogs up and if the filter media
ruptures. Also need a couple of accurate flow meter to determine volume
of oil in the different flow circuits and of course a temp gauge at the
entrance to the oil filter, and a recording chart or maybe a software
program and laptop to record all the numbers....... then come up with
the specs on what a filter should do for how long and keep the cost
under 4 dollars retail.

Right. but no one here is going to do a meaningful experiment. What they
will rely on is the partial evidence available ( the gauge on the dash
board ).

If the engine is in good shape the fact that one filter offers slightly
more resistance than another shouldn't make any noticeable difference on
the dash oil pressure gauge. The pressure relief valve controls the
pressure. It's only when the engine and/or oil pump is badly worn that
you are going to see the effects of different filter media on the oil
pressure gauge ( if the vehicle has a gauge )

-jim

 

[E. Meyer]

Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
that Fram ADBVs suck. They don't work more often than they do, or at
least that was the case the last time I used one, 15 years ago.

nate

"...15 years ago" - that's the problem with this whole thread. Everybody is
arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one bad
production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.

Try this experiment - the next time you change the oil filter, up end the
old one and see how long it take to drain out. I'll bet you find no
difference from one brand to another, I know I haven't. Nobody's ADBVs work
worth a damn.

The real issue is whether the filter media meets mfr's specs & that element
seems to never enter into the discussion.

 

[jim]

FRAG! I knew what I was thinking, but typed the exact opposite.

Base UP (as in a SBC and most other old school V-8s with an integral
filter mount) is "normal." Base DOWN (e.g. slant-six, Porsche 944, old
Ferrari V-12, etc.) *requires* an ADBV, either as part of the filter or
part of the base.

OK. I almost asked which side of the filter you called base. FYI unless
you have a leak in the plumbing or oil pump, there should always be a
syphon back to the pan even if the filter has the inlet facing up. If
there is no check valve that keeps the oil from draining back to the pan
it will syphon back.

My personal experience is that I know for a fact that large fleets of
b-100 dodge vans with slant sixes were using Fram filters back in the
70's (early 80's too IIRC) without any problem. So I tend to believe
mechanics that I know were handling Fram filters every day versus
believing someone whose stated position is they never ever handle a Fram
filter.

I recall there was an issue with the slant six oil filters. Sometime
back in the 60's or early 70's they changed the size of the filter on
some slant sixes to a shorty version (IIRC trucks had an extra heavy
duty version). The problem was some people used the old long filters
thinking that would give them better protection. What happened when the
long filter was used in this application was the filter would have an
air pocket trapped in the top of the filter. That air bubble would be
compressed when the engine was running and the filter behaved more or
less normally while the engine ran. But when the engine was turned off
the compressed air bubble would expand and push the oil out into the
engine. That meant when you re-started the engine it need to push that
quart or so of oil back into the filter before the engine would get any
oil pressure. An incorrect interpretation of what was happening under
those circumstances may be how this superstitious belief about Fram
filters and slant sixes got started.

-jim

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Right. but no one here is going to do a meaningful experiment. What they
will rely on is the partial evidence available ( the gauge on the dash
board ).

If the engine is in good shape the fact that one filter offers slightly
more resistance than another shouldn't make any noticeable difference on
the dash oil pressure gauge. The pressure relief valve controls the
pressure. It's only when the engine and/or oil pump is badly worn that
you are going to see the effects of different filter media on the oil
pressure gauge ( if the vehicle has a gauge )

-jim

Wow! A succinct answer!

But, if you're using the guage on the dash, it doesn't matter how accurate
it is. It's relative. If it's off by a few PSI, chances are it's going to
be off across the spectrum.

And, no, I paid $400 for the car 2 1/2 years ago, it's rusting and I don't
know if I'm going to bother with it after this year. Maybe, I like it. But
it's a beater, and I want to make sure it *gets* through this winter.

I may fix it because it is kind of a fun car to drive, but it is what it
is. If I can do it cheap, OK. If not, the shredder is about 2 miles down
the street.

When I do the oil change, probably sooner than the 3,000 miles I usually
do, because winter is creeping up, I'm trying a different filter. If the
oil p comes back up, good! If not...did I mention the shredder is about 2
miles away?

 

[Scott Dorsey]

At CarQuest, we sold Wix branded filters, at about $5 per filter, and
CarQuest filters, which were also Wix, at $3.99...wonder what the
difference was...

(Other than $1, of course!)

Tear one of each open and find out. They could be dramatically different,
they might not be different at all. That's the whole thing about contract
manufacturing. If the retailer goes to the manufacturer and asks for good,
he gets good. If he asks for cheap, he gets cheap.
--scott