Dealer pestering, oil change.

[houndman]

The dealer I bought my Impreza from 3+ mo ago, is bugging me with a
2nd letter, saying I am overdue for the "Dealer Recomended"
maintance. When writing to Sube about questions about 5M trans oil,
they said, not to worry about it, but think I better get in touch with
the dealer and tell them, Even Though I live in a big city, I do
little stop & go driving, and no dusty roads, which lowers the
requirement to change the oil to 3.5K mi, or 3.5mo, opposed to the
7.5's, and I only have 1500 mostly highway miles on the car, and may
not rack up 3500 mi in the 7mo. With the way they can track everything
now, they will probably say I Didn't meet warranty requirements, if
there is a problem. I'd like to know why the Forrester H-6 is
recomended to have the first oil change at 3.5K mi or 3.5 months?

Still debating when I want to change the oil. I change the oil in
my old Chevy every 6mo, which is about 2K mi, of mostly stop & go very
short trips, but always try to get the engine temp up, but not for
long. Going to run synthetic in the Sube, that I plan to put in my old
Chevy after I drain it, since I feel synthetic can go a Lot longer
than the 7.5's Sube recomends, especially when used in a new car and
mostly highway mileage. That will drop the cost of oil changes for 2
cars. I always flushed the last of the old, dirty oil out when
draining with crankase cleaner, then switched to keroscene.

VF

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

The dealer I bought my Impreza from 3+ mo ago, is bugging me with a
2nd letter, saying I am overdue for the "Dealer Recomended"
maintance. When writing to Sube about questions about 5M trans oil,
they said, not to worry about it, but think I better get in touch with
the dealer and tell them, Even Though I live in a big city, I do
little stop & go driving, and no dusty roads, which lowers the
requirement to change the oil to 3.5K mi, or 3.5mo, opposed to the
7.5's, and I only have 1500 mostly highway miles on the car, and may
not rack up 3500 mi in the 7mo. With the way they can track everything
now, they will probably say I Didn't meet warranty requirements, if
there is a problem. I'd like to know why the Forrester H-6 is
recomended to have the first oil change at 3.5K mi or 3.5 months?

Still debating when I want to change the oil. I change the oil in
my old Chevy every 6mo, which is about 2K mi, of mostly stop & go very
short trips, but always try to get the engine temp up, but not for
long. Going to run synthetic in the Sube, that I plan to put in my old
Chevy after I drain it, since I feel synthetic can go a Lot longer
than the 7.5's Sube recomends, especially when used in a new car and
mostly highway mileage. That will drop the cost of oil changes for 2
cars. I always flushed the last of the old, dirty oil out when
draining with crankase cleaner, then switched to keroscene.

VF

The dealerships almost always try to pad the the maintenace schedules.
You are very unlikely to have a warranty claim refused if you can prove
the maintenance was done according to the manual REGARDLESS of who does
it. Change you oil, or buy filters/oil and take it to someone who will
change it for you for 10-15 bucks. I also have less than average mlieage
on my cars and change the oil semi-annually. Usually about 4-5K
between cjanges and use synthetic oil.

I DO believe it is important to do fluid changes regularly. At least in
Texas, the heat is murder on auto-trannies and brake fluid to probably.

If a serious warranty claim ever came up - stick to your guns. They must
'prove' you directly lead to the failure. They can't refuse to change a
wheelbearing because you didn't flush the radiator on schedule!

Carl

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

The dealerships almost always try to pad the the maintenace schedules.

Right!

The truth is in the back of the owner's manual.

Any car dealership of any brand I've ever owner has had it's own
"suggested" service list, which went far beyond the manufacturer's
recommendations. My Subie dealer was off the charts! I don't think
they had a single service under $500.


Toyota goes so far as to provide a manual addendum "The Self
Maintainer's Guide to Maintaining Warranty Coverage", spelling out how
to follow the manual charts and what paperwork to save with DIY
maintenance.

Poking around the Subaru site, I found this page:
<http://www.subaru.com/owners/warranty/index.jsp?from=topNav>

Scroll down to:

" Your Maintenance Responsibilities"

and you'll see:

"It is your responsibility to have all scheduled inspection and
maintenance services performed at the times and mileages recommended
at the back of this booklet and to retain proof that inspection and
maintenance services are performed when recommended."

Note "back of this book" (the owner's manual), not what the dealer
recommends.

On my own Subie, I purchased filters and "wear" parts, as well as any
fluids that were specifically named in the manual, from the dealer,
providing me with dated, itemized proof of purchase. I bought the
oil, I used Mobil 1, from a local parts store in the same time frame.

I also downloaded the service and inspection practices from Subaru's
technical information site, and kept them with the records. I felt
this would show that I at least had the proper procedures available to
me.

Following Toyota's guide, I can't imagine what I did with the Subie
not being acceptable proof.

Of course, if the owner is simply an *awful* mechanic, damage can be
done during routine maintenance that could void a warranty.

I would also *NOT* mention the kerosene crankcase flush if I had a
problem. I wouldn't do it, either.

 

[houndman]

Right!

The truth is in the back of the owner's manual.

Any car dealership of any brand I've ever owner has had it's own
"suggested" service list, which went far beyond the manufacturer's
recommendations. My Subie dealer was off the charts! I don't think
they had a single service under $500.

Toyota goes so far as to provide a manual addendum "The Self
Maintainer's Guide to Maintaining Warranty Coverage", spelling out how
to follow the manual charts and what paperwork to save with DIY
maintenance.

Poking around the Subaru site, I found this page:
<http://www.subaru.com/owners/warranty/index.jsp?from=topNav>

Scroll down to:

" Your Maintenance Responsibilities"

and you'll see:

"It is your responsibility to have all scheduled inspection and
maintenance services performed at the times and mileages recommended
at the back of this booklet and to retain proof that inspection and
maintenance services are performed when recommended."

Note "back of this book" (the owner's manual), not what the dealer
recommends.

On my own Subie, I purchased filters and "wear" parts, as well as any
fluids that were specifically named in the manual, from the dealer,
providing me with dated, itemized proof of purchase. I bought the
oil, I used Mobil 1, from a local parts store in the same time frame.

I also downloaded the service and inspection practices from Subaru's
technical information site, and kept them with the records. I felt
this would show that I at least had the proper procedures available to
me.

Following Toyota's guide, I can't imagine what I did with the Subie
not being acceptable proof.

Of course, if the owner is simply an *awful* mechanic, damage can be
done during routine maintenance that could void a warranty.

I would also *NOT* mention the kerosene crankcase flush if I had a
problem. I wouldn't do it, either.

good ideas from both you guys.

I won't let Anyone tuch my cars. Have had TOO Many screwups, that I
didn't find out till later and had to redo. Had a strut replaced once,
and they chisled off the brake like bracket on it where the flex line
connects to the rigid one. had brear, drum brakes replaced, because I
wasn't up to checking them before inspection, and 2 stops after having
them done, the pedal goes down to the floor, and fluid is coming from
one of the wheels, because they didn't seat the rod between the cyl
piston and the shoe. Had many other screwups, that could have cost me
a manual tranny, if I didn't check the fluid level myself, because the
dealer wouldn't do it, saying the Noise was Normal. My mom who didn't
put many miles on, and the mechanic knew it, went to have brakes
replaced because there was a noise, and she wouldn't wait for me to
check it, and they Bent the wear sensors, that were making the noise,
and charged her for brakes.

I'll still flush the old oil, but have to learn the motor internals
better, in case a boxer has any differences. When thinking of using
synthetic, I thought, I have to find a Synthetic flush/solvent.))

VF

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

good ideas from both you guys.

I won't let Anyone tuch my cars. Have had TOO Many screwups, that I
didn't find out till later and had to redo. Had a strut replaced once,
and they chisled off the brake like bracket on it where the flex line
connects to the rigid one. had brear, drum brakes replaced, because I
wasn't up to checking them before inspection, and 2 stops after having
them done, the pedal goes down to the floor, and fluid is coming from
one of the wheels, because they didn't seat the rod between the cyl
piston and the shoe. Had many other screwups, that could have cost me
a manual tranny, if I didn't check the fluid level myself, because the
dealer wouldn't do it, saying the Noise was Normal. My mom who didn't
put many miles on, and the mechanic knew it, went to have brakes
replaced because there was a noise, and she wouldn't wait for me to
check it, and they Bent the wear sensors, that were making the noise,
and charged her for brakes.

I'll still flush the old oil, but have to learn the motor internals
better, in case a boxer has any differences. When thinking of using
synthetic, I thought, I have to find a Synthetic flush/solvent.))

VF

The synthetics do a GREAT job of keeping varnish in suspension. That is
why they look darker than regular oil when drained - they're flushing
out the gunk that would normally coat the inside of the engine. they are
- in effect - self-flushing! I would also discourage you from doing the
kerosene flush ESPECIALLY since you plan to use synthetic and will be
re-using it in another car.

Also, in line with the rather good suggestion about maintenance 'proof'
I use the system at www.my.subaru.com and log all the mainrenance done
by me or a 3rd party/indie mech. If required, I could probably get
credit card records of the purchases.

I have heard stories of kids taking the WRX daddy bought for them, that
they built up to stage 2 or stage 3 and have been street racing, into
the dealership saying 'the tranny went bad' and being refused warranty
service. dealerships are in a tight spot. They sometimes are
'aggressive' at denying claims on sportier models that they 'think' have
been abused or raced. But an 'average' guy is likely not gonna have a
claim denied if you can show an effort has been made to properly
maintain a car.

Carl

 

[ziggy99]

Agree with the above, but in the case of the 1st service I'd get the
dealer to do it unless unless their mech's were complete klutzes.

If it's the first service they then take responsibility for any
immediate warranty checks and problems.

btw, oil change intervals should be either mileage or time, whichever
comes soonest.

As for oil, synth is good insurance for high performance motors and
will last longer than dinosaur but I see plenty of high performance
motors getting high mileages just fine on dinosaur.

 

[houndman]

Agree with the above, but in the case of the 1st service I'd get the
dealer to do it unless unless their mech's were complete klutzes.

If it's the first service they then take responsibility for any
immediate warranty checks and problems.

btw, oil change intervals should be either mileage or time, whichever
comes soonest.

As for oil, synth is good insurance for high performance motors and
will last longer than dinosaur but I see plenty of high performance
motors getting high mileages just fine on dinosaur.

This Is getting complicated...

I read that Mobil 1 isn't all synthetic, because 20% of it is the
additive package which is mineral oil. Most synthetics are highly
refined, Group III mineral oil, and that roller tappets might just
slide with synthetic oil, because it is So slippery. I wonder if
Knurling them would work?)))

Oh well... Wonder why the Simple answer is.)

VF

 

[houndman]

This Is getting complicated...

I read that Mobil 1 isn't all synthetic, because 20% of it is the
additive package which is mineral oil. Most synthetics are highly
refined, Group III mineral oil, and that roller tappets might just
slide with synthetic oil, because it is So slippery. I wonder if
Knurling them would work?)))

Oh well... Wonder why the Simple answer is.)

VF

That might be flat tappets not rotating with synthetic.

VF

 

[suburboturbo]

The dealer I bought my Impreza from 3+ mo ago, is bugging me with a
2nd letter, saying I am overdue for the "Dealer Recomended"
maintance. When writing to Sube about questions about 5M trans oil,
they said, not to worry about it, but think I better get in touch with
the dealer and tell them, Even Though I live in a big city, I do
little stop & go driving, and no dusty roads, which lowers the
requirement to change the oil to 3.5K mi, or 3.5mo, opposed to the
7.5's, and I only have 1500 mostly highway miles on the car, and may
not rack up 3500 mi in the 7mo. With the way they can track everything
now, they will probably say I Didn't meet warranty requirements, if
there is a problem. I'd like to know why the Forrester H-6 is
recomended to have the first oil change at 3.5K mi or 3.5 months?

Still debating when I want to change the oil. I change the oil in
my old Chevy every 6mo, which is about 2K mi, of mostly stop & go very
short trips, but always try to get the engine temp up, but not for
long. Going to run synthetic in the Sube, that I plan to put in my old
Chevy after I drain it, since I feel synthetic can go a Lot longer
than the 7.5's Sube recomends, especially when used in a new car and
mostly highway mileage. That will drop the cost of oil changes for 2
cars. I always flushed the last of the old, dirty oil out when
draining with crankase cleaner, then switched to keroscene.

VF

When in doubt, follow the severe service intervals in your owners
manual. If you're really concerned about documentation of service,
have the dealer or a reputable shop change the oil and save all your
receipts and invoices describing service. I change my own on two
subarus every 3000 miles, subarus are easier than most cars (once you
remove that stupid plastic shield that covers the filter - had one
dealer mechanic tell me the only way to remove the cover on my 2004
WRX was to break the pins that hold it in, but you car restore it to a
functional shield easily enough; my 2005 outback 3.0 has access holes
for the drain plug and filter, not to mention enough ground clearance
to just about sit under the car while working) but I usually have the
dealer or another shop change it once or twice a year if the cars are
in the shop for anything else, especially during the winter. The
first change is important. Conventional wisdom has always been to
change early, at 1,000 miles or so, and that's what I used to do. But
two friends who are dealer mechanics (1 honda, 1 chrysler) both say to
leave the factory oil in for a full service interval. There are all
kinds of high-tech break-in lubricants that probably make up the best
sump-full of oil the car will ever see and you're best off leeting
them do their job. As for sythetics, use them if you're more
comfortable, but many are really only "semi" synthetic and a quality
"natural" oil will work fine. I would however, advise against
crankcase flushing with kerosene. You'll strip the lubricating film
off anything it touches and invite extra frictional wear. This is
only useful when you've got a old car that hasn't been maintained (how
often did change the oil? never, why, what's wrong with it?) and is
loaded with crud. If that's the case, you've probably got other
problems to deal with. Take these cars only when they come real cheap
and you've got a use for the parts when the engine starts pumping oil
our of the main seals and coolant into the cylinders via leaky or
blown head gaskets you're likely to have.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Oh well... Wonder why the Simple answer is.)

Hi,

How simple do you need:

As suggested, READ the warranty AND the maintenance schedules in the
book. FOLLOW them. Those are what's going to bind the mfr to warranty
performance, NOT what some dealer's suggesting to keep his bottom line
up.

As for oil, the book will spec both the weight and API service grade,
e.g. 5W-30, API grade SM. Close your eyes and pick one that meets the
required spec. There's far more difference in price per quart than in
the service life you'll get from your engine. Dino oil will EASILY give
you a quarter million miles or more (my Subie died of non-oil related
causes at 360k miles, one of my Toyotas is coming up on 250k miles--dino
oil in both. Anecdotal stories abound.) Most of the popular diesel oils,
highly refined dinos at heart, have been tested to 1 MILLION miles.
Synthetics may, or may not, give you longer service life. Most of the
other advantages of synthetics are nearly as arguable as the actual
definition of what a "synthetic" oil IS (with the exception of
cleanliness--they DO stay cleaner, longer.) If it makes you feel better
to go synth, go.

It don't get no simpler...

Rick

 

[houndman]

When in doubt, follow the severe service intervals in your owners
manual. If you're really concerned about documentation of service,
have the dealer or a reputable shop change the oil and save all your
receipts and invoices describing service. I change my own on two
subarus every 3000 miles, subarus are easier than most cars (once you
remove that stupid plastic shield that covers the filter - had one
dealer mechanic tell me the only way to remove the cover on my 2004
WRX was to break the pins that hold it in, but you car restore it to a
functional shield easily enough; my 2005 outback 3.0 has access holes
for the drain plug and filter, not to mention enough ground clearance
to just about sit under the car while working) but I usually have the
dealer or another shop change it once or twice a year if the cars are
in the shop for anything else, especially during the winter. The
first change is important. Conventional wisdom has always been to
change early, at 1,000 miles or so, and that's what I used to do. But
two friends who are dealer mechanics (1 honda, 1 chrysler) both say to
leave the factory oil in for a full service interval. There are all
kinds of high-tech break-in lubricants that probably make up the best
sump-full of oil the car will ever see and you're best off leeting
them do their job. As for sythetics, use them if you're more
comfortable, but many are really only "semi" synthetic and a quality
"natural" oil will work fine. I would however, advise against
crankcase flushing with kerosene. You'll strip the lubricating film
off anything it touches and invite extra frictional wear. This is
only useful when you've got a old car that hasn't been maintained (how
often did change the oil? never, why, what's wrong with it?) and is
loaded with crud. If that's the case, you've probably got other
problems to deal with. Take these cars only when they come real cheap
and you've got a use for the parts when the engine starts pumping oil
our of the main seals and coolant into the cylinders via leaky or
blown head gaskets you're likely to have.

Thanks for the thoughts.

OK, I'm debating the keroscene, but I don't run it in the motor, just
poured it down the oil fill hole, and PCV hole, on the Other bank, if
a " V " motor, to get out the dregs out of the pan. Your mention of
washing oil off parts, which came up, with letting a car with
synthetic sit for long periods, and the oil draining off the parts. I
have been driving the Sube about once a week on 100+ mi trips, and
that was the plan for it, not banging it around the city, stopping at
every intersection, on short trips, it would just about get up to
temp. I guess, if I do go to synthetic, driving it more often would be
wise.

VF

I would have thought about an early first oil change if they didn't
use reg weight oil for break in, and recomend the normal interval.
They Used to say that paraffin based Penna oils were better because of
the waxy base, but Not Now, so thinking changes, as They learn.

 

[houndman]

Hi,

How simple do you need:

As suggested, READ the warranty AND the maintenance schedules in the
book. FOLLOW them. Those are what's going to bind the mfr to warranty
performance, NOT what some dealer's suggesting to keep his bottom line
up.

As for oil, the book will spec both the weight and API service grade,
e.g. 5W-30, API grade SM. Close your eyes and pick one that meets the
required spec. There's far more difference in price per quart than in
the service life you'll get from your engine. Dino oil will EASILY give
you a quarter million miles or more (my Subie died of non-oil related
causes at 360k miles, one of my Toyotas is coming up on 250k miles--dino
oil in both. Anecdotal stories abound.) Most of the popular diesel oils,
highly refined dinos at heart, have been tested to 1 MILLION miles.
Synthetics may, or may not, give you longer service life. Most of the
other advantages of synthetics are nearly as arguable as the actual
definition of what a "synthetic" oil IS (with the exception of
cleanliness--they DO stay cleaner, longer.) If it makes you feel better
to go synth, go.

It don't get no simpler...

RICK

Keeping a motor cleaner would be nice. I think I had the worlds worst
sludged up motor, I got from a BIL to carry my hounds in. It had 100K
on it, and not maintained for a few years at least, and had sludge
flaking off the rocker area, plugging the return holes. Rodded them
out, and then the oil pump pickup screen got plugged. Thought the oil
pump quit when it lost oil pressure, and was ready to change it, and
seeing what the screen looked like, thought it might be sludged up.
With so much to do to drop the pan, and being able to see the screen
through the drain hole, I tried drilling a hole in the side of the
screen cup, back flushed it with solvent, till it came out as fast as
it went in, filled it with oil, and drove it for another 6 yrs.

I like to know what is what about things I'm involved in. Not
keeping up with the finer points about cars, like being stranded on a
desert island for 20yrs, I have a lot of catching up to do, and there
are many more things in play.

VF

 

[fopetesl]

The synthetics do a GREAT job of keeping varnish in suspension. That is
why they look darker than regular oil when drained - they're flushing
out the gunk that would normally coat the inside of the engine. they are
- in effect - self-flushing! I would also discourage you from doing the
kerosene flush ESPECIALLY since you plan to use synthetic and will be
re-using it in another car.

Also, in line with the rather good suggestion about maintenance 'proof'
I use the system atwww.my.subaru.comand log all the mainrenance done
by me or a 3rd party/indie mech. If required, I could probably get
credit card records of the purchases.

I have heard stories of kids taking the WRX daddy bought for them, that
they built up to stage 2 or stage 3 and have been street racing, into
the dealership saying 'the tranny went bad' and being refused warranty
service. dealerships are in a tight spot. They sometimes are
'aggressive' at denying claims on sportier models that they 'think' have
been abused or raced. But an 'average' guy is likely not gonna have a
claim denied if you can show an effort has been made to properly
maintain a car.

Carl

I guess we're out of luck on the other side of the pond, my.subaru.com
won't allow non-US registration. Maybe our Subes don't need
servicing!

 

[Rick Courtright]

Keeping a motor cleaner would be nice. I think I had the worlds worst
sludged up motor, I got from a BIL to carry my hounds in. It had 100K
on it, and not maintained for a few years at least, and had sludge
flaking off the rocker area, plugging the return holes. Rodded them
out, and then the oil pump pickup screen got plugged.

Hi,

Does this brother in law have more than three teeth? Geez...

At 100k miles these days, a properly maintained engine, running dino
oil, should just have the slightest amount of "varnish" coloration on
flat surfaces, like inside valve covers and such. There might be a tiny
bit of buildup in places where the oil "sits" and doesn't wash off as
easily, like "nooks and crannies" on rockers, down in the head, etc.,
but it should be soft enough to wipe clean w/ a finger or rag. Even a
PCV valve may very well operate perfectly at that mileage.

There should NOT be anything that requires chipping off, rodding out,
scraping, or long soaks in a hot tank to remove.

Now, "properly maintained" in my book means following the "severe
service" intervals in the book. "Extended" intervals may or may not be
problematic, depending on your usage. Your posts indicate SEVERE w/ as
few miles as you have in the time you've owned the vehicle. Read
carefully thru a variety of manuals, and you'll agree I'm not being a
wiseacre in saying "If you drive the car, it's severe service" as one or
more of the "conditions" applies to virtually all of us.

Now, there's a LOT of argument and discussion on whether the
"traditional" 3000 mile interval is necessary or just a waste of time,
money and oil. Since we all recycle our oil these days (DON'T WE!), the
"waste" factor's minimal. I can say from personal experience, as a 3000
miler, that the "cleanliness" level I described for 100k miles can be
extended well past 200k miles or longer. I have at least one
acquaintance w/ 250k+ on dino oil using 5k mile intervals, but haven't
"looked inside" his engine to see what it looks like for comparison to
mine (same engine, BTW.)

Some people describe the "like new" condition of their engines when they
run synthetic, then have a chance to "look inside" at 75k, 100k or more
miles. Again, from personal experience, a "properly maintained" engine
may have exactly that same appearance on dino oil at the same, and more,
miles. It's not unusual to still see the factory hone marks on cylinder
walls at 150k on many engines.

Point of all this discussion is to say if you use the severe service
maintenance intervals, you won't need to pour any kind of additives into
your oil or use any special cleaning regimens. I'd especially stay away
from the kerosene regimen. You'll probably do as much damage as good w/
a steady diet of kerosene flushes as none whatever. If you're only using
the car once or twice a week, change on the "time interval" instead of
the "mileage interval." And if you fire the engine once a week or so,
you should have no worries about oil "draining off" the important
surfaces. Most of today's oils are tenacious enough to stick to surfaces
for seemingly incredible amounts of time.

I also wouldn't buy any more cars from that BIL. And for God's sake,
never let him sell you a hound! Uh oh, is that banjo music in the
background?

Rick

 

[ziggy99]

LOL.

And hear hear!