Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[jim]

What you're making is a straw man argument.

No you are. The question wasn't how often does it need to be changed but
has it in the past been changed often enough. That question is usually
easy to answer.

You have yet to explain how
a mechanic is supposed to know how often to change oil.

Yes. And I'm not going to.

 

[Vic Smith]

I like the GM system for determining oil change intervals. It is not
perfect, but it does at least attempt to modify oil change intervals to
compensate for varations in the vehicle usage. I had a Saturn that used it.
I never actually waited until the oil change light came on, but with the
light providing a stop point, I felt a lot better about extending the oil
change interval.

I don't know how that determines a change is due.
The manual says it could come on in as little as 2000 miles - or
less!, depending on some "conditions" mentioned - speed, temp, etc.
My son does my oil changes, and I suppose he could have reset it at
some point. I'll have to ask him, but I don't think he ever reset it.
The manual is vague, only saying that it should be reset after
changing the oil, but not specifying that the light actually on
requires the reset.
Reset is key in run, engine off, push accelerator to floor 3 times
quickly, and light should blink twice and go out.
Anyway, the light is on now and has been since we got back from
Florida a couple months ago.
We changed the oil before we left, and only put about 3000 miles on it
before the light came on.
First time I ever saw it, but since my wife is its main driver, I'm
not sure if was on before.

--Vic

 

[dr_jeff]

No you are. The question wasn't how often does it need to be changed but
has it in the past been changed often enough. That question is usually
easy to answer.

No, the argument with the picture of the sludge-filled engine is part of
a straw-man argument.

Yes. And I'm not going to.

Correct, because a mechanic is not supposed to know how to determine how
often to change the oil independently, but, rather, follow the
manufacturer's recommendations.

Jeff

 

[jim]

No, the argument with the picture of the sludge-filled engine is part of
a straw-man argument.

No the picture is extreme example of the point I was making. Anyhow, if
the engine is clean the oil has been changed often enough and if it
isn't then it hasn't.

Correct, because a mechanic is not supposed to know how to determine how
often to change the oil independently, but, rather, follow the
manufacturer's recommendations.

Well maybe if he is brain dead.

-jim

 

[SMS]

How should a qualified mechanic know how often to change oil, other than
following the recommended change intervals by the engineers who designed
to the car? Mechanics are trained to fix things and do preventive
maintenance. They don't have the training in organic chemistry,
metallurgy or engineering to make better recommendations than the car
makers.

Perhaps they could send an oil sample out for analysis, LOL.

What's funny is people that look at their oil and see that it's dark in
color and they think that the color is an accurate indicator of whether
the oil needs to be replaced. It isn't. A mechanic might ask the owner a
series of questions regarding how the vehicle is used, but generally
they don't have time for this kind of evaluation on a job that costs $20-30.

 

[dr_jeff]

No the picture is extreme example of the point I was making. Anyhow, if
the engine is clean the oil has been changed often enough and if it
isn't then it hasn't.



Well maybe if he is brain dead.

-jim

Please tell me how a mechanic is supposed to know the organic chemistry,
metallurgy and engineering in determining how often the oil needs to be
changed.

If very think, chunky oil is coming, obviously, the interval is too
long. However, please explain what kind of knowledge base a good
mechanic has that let's him/her determine the proper interval better
that is better than the one recommended by the car maker.

Jeff

 

[dr_jeff]

Perhaps they could send an oil sample out for analysis, LOL.

And the mechanic is able to interpret the results of the lab analysis
how? The mechanic is able to tell that the lab is a good lab how?

What's funny is people that look at their oil and see that it's dark in
color and they think that the color is an accurate indicator of whether
the oil needs to be replaced. It isn't. A mechanic might ask the owner a
series of questions regarding how the vehicle is used, but generally
they don't have time for this kind of evaluation on a job that costs
$20-30.

And even if they do, they don't really have the knowledge base to apply
the information they get from the owner. Plus, people's guestimates of
how they do something (like percent of the miles that are highway miles
vs. city miles) is likely to be quite inaccurate. They don't know how
other people (e.g., kids, spouses) use the vehicle or drive it, either.

Jeff

 

[Licker]

One of the largest oil change chains, Jiffy Lube, for instance, is owned by
Pennzoil-Quaker State, and as such
has an incentive to sell as much of the company’s traditional
petroleum-based oil as possible."

This information is only partially correct. Shell Oil owns Pennzoil-Quaker
State.

 

[Licker]

My oil chnage light in my 2009 Dodge Truck comes on around 2500 miles.

 

[jim]

Please tell me how a mechanic is supposed to know the organic chemistry,
metallurgy and engineering in determining how often the oil needs to be
changed.

That never was the question. Here is the quote

"As a car ages, more frequent changes
might be in order, but that's for a
qualified mechanic to decide on a
case-by-case basis."

Modern oils hold the fine dirt particles that the oil filter do not
remove in suspension. But oil can only hold so much dirt. If you change
oil often enough the oil changes get rid of the dirt. If you don't
change the oil as often them some of the dirt will stay in the engine.
If every oil change you leave some dirt in the engine it adds up. This
does not require a Ph.D. to comprehend. Examining an old car and
determining whether the engines oil needs to be changed more frequently
is not the intractable and difficult proposition that you are making it
out to be.

If very think, chunky oil is coming, obviously, the interval is too
long. However, please explain what kind of knowledge base a good
mechanic has that let's him/her determine the proper interval better
that is better than the one recommended by the car maker.

I have seen plenty of examples where car manufacturers provide
recommendations to mechanics in one form or another to examine the oil
and engine to determine if the oil has been changed as often as it
should be. Typically this sort of advice comes in service bulletins
that are intended to help diagnose engine noises like valve train
clatter. More often than not these descriptions do not go into any
particular detail of how the mechanic is to make such a analysis. It is
assumed that a competent mechanic can tell the difference between a
clean engine and one that is not.

-jim

 

[jim]

:

Changing oil too often is not cheap insurance if there is no benefit.

You don't seem to quite grasp the concept of insurance. Is buying fire
insurance stupid for those who are among the vast majority that never
collect a benefit?

-jim

 

[hls]

You can spend your own money any way you want but there is no factual
basis for your claim that such frequent oil changes are any benefit.
You are still living in the world of 1960 oil.

As I have said earlier, the book says 5000, less under severe conditions.
The two different dealerships I have bought from recommend 3500. It is
a small price to pay,and I am content with it.

 

[hls]

Reset is key in run, engine off, push accelerator to floor 3 times
quickly, and light should blink twice and go out.
Anyway, the light is on now and has been since we got back from
Florida a couple months ago.
We changed the oil before we left, and only put about 3000 miles on it
before the light came on.
First time I ever saw it, but since my wife is its main driver, I'm
not sure if was on before.

--Vic

Our 1998 Buick LeSabre actually had a reset button in the glove compartment
area.

There were occasions it came on at less than 3500 miles, but not often.

I have heard the GM algorithm strongly defended as far as its ability to
predict
oil change intervals, but like most everything else in this entire thread,
there is
no hard proof that I have ever seen.

I am sure these studies must exist, on filters, oil change intervals, effect
of
particulates of different size distributions in the oil, etc etc, but I have
never
seen them. (And I HAVE looked for them)

 

[SMS]

Depends on your goals. If you want the minimum upkeep, and you
run the vehicles a relatively short time, and then just want to auction
them
off, you are probably right.

If you want to maintain your warranty and run the car for 8-10 years and
100K or more, then you do what the manufacturer says, or better.

At least, that seems logical to me.

Oil is damn cheap compared to an engine.

Then you should be changing your oil every 100 miles. It will have the
same benefit on the longevity of the engine versus changing the oil
every 1000 miles, 3000 miles, or 5000 miles--no effect at all. But it'll
make you feel better.

"Recreational Oil Changing

The term "recreational oil changer" was coined to define people that
change their oil far more than necessary because they actually enjoy
doing it. It's easy to understand the psychology behind the recreational
oil changing. It's the visceral feel of the tools, the victory when that
old oil filter breaks free, the hot dark oil pouring out, the joy of
oiling of the gasket on the new filter, that new copper or fiber gasket
on the drain plug, the clean clear oil going in, and the sense of
accomplishment when you start the car, the oil pressure light comes on
for a moment, then goes out. For $8-10 in oil and parts, it's pretty
cheap entertainment, but if people would be content to do it only when
it provides some benefit to the vehicle it would be better."

 

[jim]

<sigh> You really don't understand viscosity, pressue and flow do you.

I'm not the one claiming to have knowledge of what is going on inside
an engine with nothing to go on but fairy tales and superstition.

Lets examine your claim that Ford went to great expense to improve the
design of their filters in order to fix the problem you experienced with
your engine. This story is nothing but a fairy tale. Its purpose is not
to inform but to comfort the ignorant. The main purpose of this fairy
tale is probably intended to divert you from noticing that there are
design flaws in Ford's engines. The fact is many owners of these engines
have had the exact same complaint even when they were using the magic
filters and magic oil that Ford sells.

Do some research on Nitrile and Silicone:

http://www.globalrubber.com/pdf/catalogue/Pt04_Elastometer_Characteristics.pdf

You have absolutely no evidence that Silicone is a better material
choice for this application. It's not as if no one has ever tested how
these materials perform as ABDV valves in automotive oil filters. All
the test results that I have encountered have not shown the use of
silicone to be a superior material for automotive oil filter ABDV than
nitrile. Comparisons that I have seen show nitrile ABDV valves to be
generally superior to silicone. I seriously doubt that you have seen
any real evidence at all that contradicts that.
There is no evidence that nitrile will degrade faster than silicone.
In fact all the evidence from testing done by material scientists say
that silicone will degrade faster than nitrile in motor oil. Many
engines use nitrile where a dynamic seal is needed for motor oil. There
is no evidence it doesn't hold up well - nitrile has been shown to
provide reliable seal that will hold up for dozens of years. There is
lots of nitrile used in existing engines where a dynamic seal is needed
so it is absurd to claim it won't last in an application where it gets
replaced in 1 year at the most.
There is no evidence that silicone makes a better or more reliable seal
- again all the test results show the opposite in motor oil
applications.
And finally there is no evidence that it costs more for Ford to put a
piece of silicone rubber in their filters instead of a piece of nitrile
rubber. And even if that part of the story was true there is no evidence
that throwing more expensive parts inside a tin can makes a better
filter.

There is no part of your story that has a single factual basis. The
entire story and all its parts are based on myth.


-jim

 

[hls]

I can't find the old post. Can you repost the links?

Ed

Probably I can find it again, C.E

 

[hls]

And the filter did NOT split. It just "blew off". Took the threads
right out of the base plate. SHOULD have blown the gasket out first,
but didn't

I have never seen that, in all my days. It takes one hell of a lot of
pressure
(or very weak threads) to do something like this.

 

[Vic Smith]

Our 1998 Buick LeSabre actually had a reset button in the glove compartment
area.

There were occasions it came on at less than 3500 miles, but not often.

My son told me that he has been resetting it when he changes oil, but
has also changed the oil before it came on, because we about to take a
long trip. And if it isn't on, he doesn't reset it.
That raises some questions. Personally, I don't see it as useful
unless you're willing to let it be your sole guide to oil changes.
Since we jot down mileage at changes, then change again after 3k miles
and no later than 4k miles, the light is just an irritation.

I have heard the GM algorithm strongly defended as far as its ability to
predict
oil change intervals, but like most everything else in this entire thread,
there is
no hard proof that I have ever seen.

Agreed. If I feel like it later, I'll take a look at the shop manual
to see if says anything about it. Don't hold your breath.

I am sure these studies must exist, on filters, oil change intervals, effect
of
particulates of different size distributions in the oil, etc etc, but I have
never
seen them. (And I HAVE looked for them)

I don't think they exist in a useful form. Imagine the logistics and
expense of testing so many engines under many conditions and miles,
with controls.
Even if one were to test the oil filtration characteristics of many
filters, using one engine to do it would not necessarily reveal how
another engine would do with the same filters.
Then you'll naturally get mechs and internet pundits saying stuff like
"Sure, the Fram might be OK the Chevy, but the Ford really needs a
Purulator."
The CR report was the most extensive I've seen, but had many flaws.
I consider it useless except as an interesting read.
The auto manufacturers have the best somewhat controlled ability to
get a handle on it with their maintenance schedules and dealership
networks. Besides that, when I worked at IH there were engines
constantly running on stands in the engine test area, and I'm sure all
manufacturers do the same.
I don't know what tests they do, but it's a safe assumption they are
using their own oil change recommendations to run some amount of
miles, teardown, and look for wear.
Doubt they tinker too much with the oil beyond that.
And as far as I saw, testing was done under constant external air
temperature.
Could be wrong about that though.
As an aside, when I was at IH in Melrose Park, IL, an engine test tech
was killed when an engine flew apart. There was quite a stink with
the UAW about flawed test equipment that allowed the engine to go full
throttle. About 1973.
In any case, a car on the road, driven under diverse weather
conditions, and varying warm-up and acceleration modes, is best left
to the owners own judgement regarding when to change the oil.
My opinion.

--Vic

 

[hls]

Then you should be changing your oil every 100 miles. It will have the
same benefit on the longevity of the engine versus changing the oil every
1000 miles, 3000 miles, or 5000 miles--no effect at all. But it'll make
you feel better.

Quoting your ideas as facts, with no scientific supporting information.
You do what you want, and I'll do what I want, okay?

 

[hls]

Can you cite a source for this, Nate?

I believe that the ad copy for any good preoiler has this information,
but I don't have time to find an example at the moment. maybe on CM's
web site?

nate

*******
I dont know. I can look, but I have never seen any hard data on this.