Why don't people buy snow tires?

Frank Pyatt said:
Second, unlike many of the other yahoos on the road, I adjust my driving

Finally, if I didn't own an AWD car I would only ever consider driving a FWD
car.

ok you drive a new corolla fwd and ill drive an older rwd corolla on the
same tires
and ill drive circles around you in toronto or missisauga


I agree that they are prone to understeer.....which can be corrected
by not goosing the car while cornering in the snow.
to stop understeer you use the gas pedal and gently accelerate.
everyone knows that
lift off the gas and it gets worse not better in a fwd car

With a bit of practice
(in emergency situations of course) the use of the hand parking brake can
correct the understeer quite handily.

hand brake turns are common for good drivers in any circumstance
full hand brake on and full throttle in a fwd drive car can make nice
donuts in the snow
 
No Way said:
to stop understeer you use the gas pedal and gently accelerate.
everyone knows that
lift off the gas and it gets worse not better in a fwd car

Lifting will weight the _front_ wheels (as will downshifting or
braking). This is why front-wheel drive is "idiot proof"...folks
panic, lift off the gas and/or brake, weight shifts toward the front
wheels, and traction is (hopefully) regained.

Personally, I despise front-drive. Correcting from oversteer is
instinctive, IMHO.

Here's a myth that annoys me. "Front-drive cars have better traction
due to their having more weight over the front wheels". Consider
this. A Honda Accord with a less-than-ideal 60/40 weight distribution
probably has _less_ weight over the driven wheels than the
well-balanced, slightly heavier 3-series BMW with 50/50 weight
distribution.
 
Here's a myth that annoys me. "Front-drive cars have better traction
due to their having more weight over the front wheels". Consider
this. A Honda Accord with a less-than-ideal 60/40 weight distribution
probably has _less_ weight over the driven wheels than the
well-balanced, slightly heavier 3-series BMW with 50/50 weight
distribution.

But if you do the math, the extra traction is consumed by
the equally increasing traction needs. When you adjust the
weight SPLIT you get better traction at the front wheels.
It comes at a price, mind you, but it's there.

FWD has a decided advantage in adverse traction conditions
when speeds are low. When driven aggressively and fast all
sorts of other vehicle dynamics come into play (which is
why race drivers tend to prefer rear wheel drive), but for
Joe Commuter, FWD offers better traction and a more
graceful traction failure than RWD.
 
I love the comment Cam "a more graceful traction failure" Now that's
political correct compared to "you totally lost it dummy" or worse.
 
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
I love the comment Cam "a more graceful traction failure" Now that's
political correct compared to "you totally lost it dummy" or worse.

When you lose traction in a FWD car in the snow, it tends
to continue in roughly the same direction as you were
already going, and will tend to gradually plow.

When you lose traction in a RWD car in the snow, you are
far more likely to get the car sideways. This requires
more skill and experience to recover from. It offers some
benefits for those WITH the skill and experience, but is
generally a less pleasant experience to the "average"
commuter driver.
 
Cam said:
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, (e-mail address removed)
says...

When you lose traction in a FWD car in the snow, it tends
to continue in roughly the same direction as you were
already going, and will tend to gradually plow.

When you lose traction in a RWD car in the snow, you are
far more likely to get the car sideways. This requires
more skill and experience to recover from. It offers some
benefits for those WITH the skill and experience, but is
generally a less pleasant experience to the "average"
commuter driver.

Which is why I think we set the bar *way* too low in this country with
regard to the skill we require of drivers in order to acquire and maintain a
driver's license. If airline pilots had roughly the same skill at piloting
as this "average" driver to which you refer has at driving, either nobody
would fly, or lots of people would fly and die.

As an added benefit, people who know how to drive well tend to involve
themselves more in the task. They spend less time (note I didn't write "no
time") with the sort of in-car distractions that are likely to to cause
accidents. At what point did the privilege of driving (which it was, at one
time, considered to be) become a *right*?

And for the record, when driving in the snow, I prefer AWD, RWD, then FWD,
in that order.

- Greg Reed

--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon (when available in U.S.)
 
And for the record, when driving in the snow, I prefer AWD, RWD, then FWD,
in that order.

- Greg Reed

Did you ever see a front wheel drive car go up a slippery icy hill? What
fun! I especially like to see them smoke their tires in a vain attempt
to gain traction.

Al
 
Why is it every snow storm the ditches fill up with front wheel drives
almost 100%?
now that is the test of the pudding

And the percentage of rear wheel drives on the road is?
Hmmmm.
And in pro rally where traction is the ultimate judge

For experienced professional drivers on a closed circuit...
Front drives have the slowest times in stages
Real wheel drive next best times
4 wheels are higher average speeds
Front drives are just plain crap in the snow
The front ends wiggle side to side up hills like a hula dancer and dont
move.
It is quite funny

Going up hills is only one aspect to driving in the snow.
For virtually every everyday scenario, FWD is better in the
snow when driven within normal everyday driving limits.

Note: I prefer to drive RWD and AWD cars myself, but I
will certainly give FWD their due.
 
Why is it every snow storm the ditches fill up with front wheel drives
almost 100%?
now that is the test of the pudding

And in pro rally where traction is the ultimate judge
Front drives have the slowest times in stages
Real wheel drive next best times
4 wheels are higher average speeds
Front drives are just plain crap in the snow
The front ends wiggle side to side up hills like a hula dancer and dont
move.
It is quite funny
 
In my neck of the woods, the ditches are filled with 4x4's about 70%,
front drives 25% and RWD 5%. Most passenger vehicles are FWD so
interpret that how you will.

CW
 
Hi,
Most 4X4(SUV) drivers are idiots.
No wonder they are in ditches as soon as snow comes.
Watch out female well to do SUV drivers.
Tony
 
I was driving one last winter, trying to go up that hill. You must've been
watching. That car is now gone.
 
Verbs Under My Gel said:
Lifting will weight the _front_ wheels (as will downshifting or
braking). This is why front-wheel drive is "idiot proof"...folks
panic, lift off the gas and/or brake, weight shifts toward the front
wheels, and traction is (hopefully) regained.

Personally, I despise front-drive. Correcting from oversteer is
instinctive, IMHO.

Ditto.

Like anti-lock brakes, FWD has been sold as a "safety feature" for
people who wish to remove the Human Mind from the safety equation. We're
not doing ourselves any favors, as a people, by coddling people in this
way. The bar gets lower, and lower, and lower...

My favorite thing about driving my AWD Subaru in deep snow, is that it
drives more like my old RWD Volkswagens, only less squirrely. As in, I
can actually keep moving in the same basic direction. Same goes for my
older 4WD Subarus, and my 4WD Toyota pickup. I personally think Subaru
switched from their old 4WD system to full-time AWD, because people were
too shy about pulling on that cool little lever.


BTW, on the Snow Tires topic: we just bought our first after-factory set
of tires this fall, and we bought Bridgestone "Turanza"s. Okay, I admit
it: I bought into the whole spiel the salesguy was dishing out. But they
sounded really cool. And so far, I have to say, they seem pretty
aggressively invinciple on our steep driveway and backroads in snow.

(apologies for any typos; I have Band-Aids on a number of fingertips
right now...)
 
Cam Penner
For experienced professional drivers on a closed circuit...
NO it transfers to drivers on the road
same situation
FWD has less traction
End of story
Get used to it
sheesh
 
Cam Penner

NO it transfers to drivers on the road
same situation
FWD has less traction

In most cars on the road, the weight balance is biased
towards the front. (big heavy engine). This places more
weight over the front wheels.

As a result, on a level surface, the front wheels of the
car have more traction available to them (assuming same
tire size and type on all 4 corners). This means that a
FWD car can deliver more power to the road before wheelspin
than a RWD car. Simple physics. Ff = u x Fn. As Fn
increases with the weight, so does the Ff, which we all
know is the traction available.

This begins to change as the car accelerates. The weight
will begin to transfer rearward, and the front wheels begin
to lose traction, and the rear wheels begin to gain
traction. When the weight bias passes 50/50, the RWD car
has the advantage under acceleration. Again, simple
physics.

Most drivers on the road on a day to day basis do NOT
accelerate hard enough in slippery conditions (and
prudently so) to initiate enough weight transfer to give
RWD a traction advantage. Competition drivers, without
things like pedestrians and other unpredictable traffic to
worry them, can. This is why RWD shows an advantage in
racing.

Hills upset the balance somewhat, as they simulate the
weight transfer of acceleration. This makes FWD have less
drive wheel traction, and RWD have more on uphill starts.
It also gives FWD better acceleration on downhill starts.
(which is rather a moot point in everyday driving)

Corners make a difference too. Under acceleration, FWD
cars have less traction when cornering than RWD. They are
splitting their available traction between acceleration and
steering. This promotes understeer when traction is lost.
RWD cars don't have that limitation on the front, but split
traction the same way at the rear. This is slightly less
likely to cause loss of traction, but it does. Rear wheels
have to split traction between acceleration and cornering.
The result of this traction loss is oversteer. In general,
understeer is easier to recover from than oversteer.

Under braking or coasting, all things are equal between the
2. When decelerating in gear with no brakes applied, RWD
has the advantage of leaving the front wheels with full
traction for cornering, and using the braking force on the
rear wheels only.

Having said all this, I think I can sum it up rather
simply.

1) Both FWD and RWD begin with the same amount of
traction. They just make use of it differently, and have
advantages and disadvantages in various situations.

2) The advantages FWD offers tend to line up with everyday
drivers in everyday situations. RWD offers advantages to
those that push the limits.

3) AWD tends to offer both the advantages and
disadvantages of both, netting out to the best possible
experience (in most worlds).
 
Cam Penner said:
Most drivers on the road on a day to day basis do NOT
accelerate hard enough in slippery conditions (and
prudently so) to initiate enough weight transfer to give
RWD a traction advantage. Competition drivers, without
things like pedestrians and other unpredictable traffic to
worry them, can. This is why RWD shows an advantage in
racing.

Well - the one big disadvantage of FWD for me is when it's
wet and I'm first in line behind a crosswalk or stop line.
When I accelerate, the front tires will slip on the wet painted
line. I've tried starting out of 2nd gear to avoid slipping.
 
Well - the one big disadvantage of FWD for me is when it's
wet and I'm first in line behind a crosswalk or stop line.
When I accelerate, the front tires will slip on the wet painted
line. I've tried starting out of 2nd gear to avoid slipping.

The solution, of course, is to stop behind the line.... ;)
 
BTW, on the Snow Tires topic: we just bought our first after-factory set
of tires this fall, and we bought Bridgestone "Turanza"s. Okay, I admit
it: I bought into the whole spiel the salesguy was dishing out. But they
sounded really cool. And so far, I have to say, they seem pretty
aggressively invinciple on our steep driveway and backroads in snow.

What was this "spiel" that sounded really cool ?

I got them too, for my 97 OB, several years ago, and like them.
Much better handling that the OEM Michelins. No way to compare
on snow, since it is rare here and never drove the Michelins.
They were/are fairly cheap too, and I still have lots of tread
left at 50K (but I think a belt has shifted since I have gotten
them balanced and still have a shimmy).

Anyhow, I'm tempted to get another set of Turanzas, but wondering
if I should look at something else.

Thanks, John
 
Re: Why don't people buy snow tires?
From: Cam Penner>> Well - the one big disadvantage of FWD for me is when it's

The solution, of course, is to stop behind the line.... ;)

Or get a car with Traction Control (unlike my GT wgn :-( & I do wish it
had T/C).
Terry - '02 Regatta-Red GT wagon 5spd - 25,000 miles
'03 Silver Legacy SE auto-sedan - 2450 miles
Yakima / TandeMover / Rockymount rack
To reply, get rid of the "nonsense"
 
John Eyles said:
What was this "spiel" that sounded really cool ?

Most aggressively tractiony in wet and icy conditions, and that the
rubber supposedly wears in such a way that they have more traction when
worn, so have a longer useful tread life. This is a concern because our
gravel road routinely eats up tires inside 25,000 miles.

He flat-out promised me it would feel like a whole new car. I was
skeptical by the time I was on the way home, and feeling a little
sheepish for the next couple of weeks about falling for it -- but then
we got lots of snow, and hey, it _does_ feel like a whole new car! It
just _goes_.
 

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