my new subaru 1st & 2nd gear

grape said:
had some expert driven my car, and he said that there's no problem, only coz
I let the RPM dropped so low. He recommand me to shift down.

Hi,

A thought or two...

In the early '60s, my father and many of his co-workers went on a
British sports car kick. Some had 4 cyls, some 6es. Someone was talking
about how he wished his car was available with a six, cuz his four was
so anemic. One of the guys took him for a ride and surprised the heck
out of the owner at the performance available from that "anemic four." I
remember a comment that "if you're going to run a four cylinder below
3000 rpm, you should be pulled over and stopped."

I don't know what your driving style is, but if you're seeing 1000 rpm
at any time your car's moving in a gear other than 1st (and then only
when moving at very low speed), I'd suggest your "expert" friend is
right--watch that rev counter and keep it wound up (forget whatever that
6 cyl auto Camry does, too! I've got one myself, and it's a whole
different animal from my 4 cyl, 5 spd Subie.) With a little practice,
maybe some tips from your friend, you can learn rev-matching techniques
that allow you to shift up and down smoothly without losing RPMs (I saw
an automotive writer once liken using the throttle to "using a dimmer
switch, NOT an on/off switch.") That will help "outsmart" the computer
that's cutting your fuel flow and make your driving much smoother (as
well as taking a lot of load off the drivetrain every time you let it
jerk.) Computers are great, for computing! But IMO the programmers are
more concerned with fuel economy and emissions than anything else, so
the computers try to do things that aren't exactly "right" with respect
to getting the most out of your engine.

Have fun!

Rick
 
Rick said:
Hi,

A thought or two...

In the early '60s, my father and many of his co-workers went on a
British sports car kick. Some had 4 cyls, some 6es. Someone was talking
about how he wished his car was available with a six, cuz his four was
so anemic. One of the guys took him for a ride and surprised the heck
out of the owner at the performance available from that "anemic four." I
remember a comment that "if you're going to run a four cylinder below
3000 rpm, you should be pulled over and stopped."

LOL.

I was talking to a lady who also owned a 2.5l Outback.
She was complaining about the lack of power going over
the Sierra Mountains. I asked her if she downshifted
and wound it out. "No, it makes too much noise and
it sounds like it's hard on the car...."
 
thanx for the reply
oh yeah, I noticed that too..... when RPM below 2000, the torque seemed aint
too well to push the car forward, and the engine makes sorta humming
noise.... is this common in H4? never driven a 4 cyl before...

I am still in break-in period...the manual suggest to keep rpm not too high,
and I shift at almost 2000RPM per gear, since I don't wanna hurt my new car
too much.

btw, keeping rpm higher than 2000 is not doing good on gas mileage...since
nowadays the gas price ain't too pleasant.
 
grape said:
I don't know if you uner stand my question or I misunderstood your reply.
hehe

That is, when the car is moving in 1st &/or 2nd gear, if I let off the
throttle, the car slows down, and RPM drops as well, and as RPM drops around
1000, the car will started to jerk forward and backward, and this only
happens in 1st&2nd gears. 3rd and 4th won't show such an effect even if RPM
drops to 1000.

Err, yes. That's called "lugging the engine", and is completely normal
in a manual
shift car. You have allowed the revs to drop too far, and that's how
a manual
transmission reacts.

Automatics are entirely different, the fluid drive of the torque
converter eliminates
that "jerking".

I'm guessing you've never driven a stick before. Like the old joke
says, "Doctor,
it hurts when I do this." "Well, stop doing that." Don't let your
revs drop that
far, there's almost no reason to do so, and if you really need to creep
along
like that, feather the clutch.

Pulling away in second is no big deal, either. It's a good thing to
learn to do, to
prevent tire slippage on slick surfaces, though with a Subaru that's
less likely.

(Try having your shifter jam in 4th some time (not in a Subaru), and
finding out
at a stop sign at the top of a hill. That was fun.)
 
grape said:
I am still in break-in period...the manual suggest to keep rpm not too high,
and I shift at almost 2000RPM per gear, since I don't wanna hurt my new car

btw, keeping rpm higher than 2000 is not doing good on gas mileage...since
nowadays the gas price ain't too pleasant.

Hi,

Can't say I'm an expert on what range to run you car in, but I've
learned a coupla things in the first million or so miles I've put on
smaller (under 2 liter) 4 cyl engines that might help... at least I can
say they "work for me!"

First thing I look for is the specs on the engine: I want torque and
horsepower peaks. I don't know where the numbers fall on the 2.5l, but
let's use my 1.8l for an example. Torque peak is in the neighborhood of
3200 rpm. Horsepower is around 5000 or so. This is similar to most other
fours I've owned, so it serves well enough for discussion.

Others can describe better than I what the differences between torque
and horsepower are, but let's oversimplify things (these are
generalizations, no need to nitpick any slight errors right here) and
say torque gives the ability to keep the load moving, horsepower gives
the ability to make it move faster. Once torque reaches its peak number,
it generally stays fairly flat over a wide range of engine speeds before
dropping, while horsepower continuously climbs until its peak, then
usually stays at that level only for a short time before starting to
drop off, sometimes dramatically. So while my engine redlines at 6500
rpm, it may actually be making less power at that point than it does at
5500.

Now, what's this mean for driving? Basically, for most purposes, I find
I get the best OVERALL performance (combining acceleration, passing
ability, fuel economy, engine life) by keeping my driving within the rpm
range defined at the lower end by the torque peak and the upper end by
the horsepower peak. So, for my engine, that's saying I should keep it
between 3000 and 5000 rpm.

Below the torque peak, the engine will work harder to do the same job,
down to the point you're lugging the engine, which CAN do harm. With a
four, you're less likely to harm it by winding it up than by lugging it
down (assuming you're NOT lead footing it. You'll get better lubrication
keeping oil flow up, better cooling by keeping coolant flow up, better
fuel economy by letting the engine breathe properly, etc.)

Above the horsepower peak, you're probably not gaining much (there ARE
reasons to hit redline, but IME most people don't REALLY know what they
are or use them properly.)

Now we look at shifting points. As a general rule, manual transmissions
on the cars I drive are set up with a span of somewhere around 1000 rpm
between gears (some are wider, some closer, but let's stick with this
number for now.) I want to keep at or above the torque peak in each
gear, so a beginning shift point is relatively easy to figure: take
where you want to be in the next gear, and add 1000 (watch your rev
counter to learn the actual shiftpoints to use in your car.) In other
words, I want to start in 1st, and still be at 3000 rpm after the shift
to 2nd, so I take 1st out to 4000, then shift. I continue that thru the
gears. For downshifting, if I'm starting to lose rpms below my target of
3000 rpm in whatever gear, I'll downshift. So if the car's not pulling
well (as in I have to do more than just cruising) at 3000 in 5th, I'll
drop to 4th, etc. For example, if I'm cruising along on flat ground in
5th at 3000, then start up a grade, when I feel the engine starts to
take more and more throttle to hold that engine speed, I'll downshift.
One should NEVER let the revs drop to where the engine starts to buck.

About now the "higher rpms mean lower gas mileage" folks start to wave
their hands in the air. This is where the guys who program the
automatics get to put their two cents in, and they usually screw it up
IMO. I'll agree, there's no sense in running excessive engine speeds,
but there's a range where the engine works best, and many automatics are
programmed to run below that range more than is good. Which they can do
smoothly, since there's slippage in the system as others have described.
But your manual has already told you what's not good when it started
jerking.

Last point for now is when do we wind the engine up further? Using my
engine, normal shift points when I'm not trying to get somewhere in a
hurry are around 4000 rpm, which keeps me at 3000 or so in each
successive gear. That's fine for normal use. But there are times I need
more: passing, merging onto the freeway, driving up in the mountains.
This is where experience and "feel" for a particular car, engine and
gearbox come in, but I'll sacrifice a tiny bit of fuel economy for the
control of knowing exactly what the car's gonna do next in these
situations. For example, when merging into 70 mph freeway traffic, I
know the car CAN go 70 in either 3rd, 4th or 5th. But in 5th, I'm down
around 3000 and the engine isn't coming up on power, so I can cruise,
but not accelerate easily. At 4000 in 4th, I've got power coming on, and
can continue to accelerate when that guy yakking on his cell phone in
the big SUV is coming up on me a bit fast and doesn't seem to notice I'm
in front of him. So I'll plan my upshifts to keep the engine up on the
power band with some reserve until I'm in a position to upshift
safely--which moves my 3rd-4th shift to 5000 and so forth. This is where
that "extra" range between the horsepower peak and redline can be
properly utilized once in a while.

There's WAY more to all this than what I've explained, and I apologize
if I haven't done a good job, but I think you can see what we're trying
to achieve. For a REALLY graphic demo of the "theory" see if you can
hitch a ride with a big rig driver and watch how he uses those 10 or
more gears for a while. BTW, once you've gotten your engine broken in,
you'll probably find you will actually get better fuel economy using
"my" method than by simply trying to keep rpms as low as possible! And
you'll probably also be amazed at how much your engine can do without
ever even seeing WOT (wide open throttle!)

Have fun!

Rick
 
My 2.5 L suby does very nicely if I shift at ~22-2500 rpm unless I
need more power to pass or whatever.
 
Edward said:
My 2.5 L suby does very nicely if I shift at ~22-2500 rpm unless I
need more power to pass or whatever.

Hi,

Sorry, Ed, I'm half asleep here: is that range the point below which
you'd downshift (like the 3000 rpm point on my engine), or the upshift
point (like the 4000 rpm point on mine?)

Rick
 
Rick said:
There's WAY more to all this than what I've explained, and I apologize
if I haven't done a good job, but I think you can see what we're trying
to achieve. For a REALLY graphic demo of the "theory" see if you can
hitch a ride with a big rig driver and watch how he uses those 10 or
more gears for a while. BTW, once you've gotten your engine broken in,
you'll probably find you will actually get better fuel economy using
"my" method than by simply trying to keep rpms as low as possible! And
you'll probably also be amazed at how much your engine can do without
ever even seeing WOT (wide open throttle!)

Hey Rick,

I think that is a very succint explanation of how to handle a 4 banger.
Wish I had known that when I first got my 1.8L VW GTI. Now that I'm
driving a '03 WRX Wgn lessons learned with my first 4 banger are
helpfull, just have to learn how to use the turbo better.
 
Rick said:
Now, what's this mean for driving? Basically, for most purposes, I find
I get the best OVERALL performance (combining acceleration, passing
ability, fuel economy, engine life) by keeping my driving within the rpm
range defined at the lower end by the torque peak and the upper end by
the horsepower peak. So, for my engine, that's saying I should keep it
between 3000 and 5000 rpm.

Whoah. :)

I'd just like to point out, for the record, that following this advice on a
WRX STi will give you extremely bad gas mileage, will be obnoxiously loud
and piss off your neighbours, and will generally make the car more
difficult to control.

The HP/torque peaks in the STi are 300 ft-lb @ 4000, and 300 HP @ 6000. If
you keep your STi between those numbers, you're going to be wasting a lot
of money on gas.

The STi has, in my experience, the best gas mileage at that sweet spot right
around 2100 - 2900 RPM. The engine doesn't labour up hills, and the
overpowered turbo hasn't fully kicked-in to eat up all that extra gas.

Shifting is easier, rev-matching is easier.. it feels like you're gently
rocking the car to sleep at that RPM.

"Sleep, my friend, we're not racing to work this morning."
 
k. ote said:
Whoah. :)

I'd just like to point out, for the record, that following this advice on a
WRX STi will give you extremely bad gas mileage, will be obnoxiously loud
and piss off your neighbours, and will generally make the car more
difficult to control.

Hi,

No argument--remember my post was prefaced to address "under 2 liter"
engines, few of which are "overpowered" in street trim, and further went
on to mention "experience" with a particular car...

Now, it's no surprise if what I described as a driving style won't work
wonders on an STi on the street. Why not? Let's face it, the STi is
probably closer to being a street legal race car than a reasonable daily
"driver", kinda like a return to the concept of some of the late
'60s-early '70s muscle cars (of course it handles, stops and does all
that stuff those cars didn't do!) Not to say that type of machine can't
be a fun car to drive, but it's too much for many drivers. Your comment
on "more difficult to control" suggests that problem may surface here.
OTOH, an STi on the track in the hands of a driver experienced with such
cars is probably a joy to behold!

But... people will buy what's offered, so cars like the STi have a built
in market! And I'm glad they do--the almost total econobox mentality of
the mid-'70s to mid-'80s or so was pretty boring. Still, I think I'd be
hesitant to want a car I had to almost lug around to keep from going
broke at the gas pump or wrapping around a tree when it got away. Guess
I was in on building too many of those 40 years ago... some things don't
change much!

Rick
 
Rick said:
Not to say that type of machine can't be a fun car to drive, but it's too
much for many drivers. Your comment on "more difficult to control"
suggests that problem may surface here.

I'm still trying to decide whether you're playing around, or whether you're
serious--no, there's not point now in trying to tell me one way or the
other. :)

Anyway, even the 2.0L WRX was similar in its power delivery band not being
an appropriate cruising RPM. Your advice just doesn't apply to any modern
Subaru vehicle in N.A., and it certainly doesn't apply to the topic of
discussion in this thread: the guy has an 06 Impreza Wagon. :)
 
k. ote said:
I'm still trying to decide whether you're playing around, or whether you're
serious--no, there's not point now in trying to tell me one way or the
other. :)

Ok, I won't! :D

Rick
 

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