Large repair on recently-purchased 99 Outback Sport

[aztek]

Hi all,

Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
really taken-care-of, $4800.

So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
gaskets, and what-not.

I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
do a 12K-mile guarantee on).

So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
motor would be...

Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance...

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Hi all,

Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
really taken-care-of, $4800.

So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
gaskets, and what-not.

I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
do a 12K-mile guarantee on).

So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
motor would be...

Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance...

Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?

www.ccrengines.com (whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt
engine.

Carl

 

[aztek]

Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?

www.ccrengines.com(whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt
engine.

Carl

Mis-fire on cylinder 4

They gave me the mechanic's notes, which say:

"Verified CEL is on, also verified engine lacks power.
Pulled code: cyl 4 misfire (P0304)
Dropped Y-pipe and found cyl. #4 <something illegible> has dropped
causing a misfire
Recc. cylinder head replace
8 hours"

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Mis-fire on cylinder 4

They gave me the mechanic's notes, which say:

"Verified CEL is on, also verified engine lacks power.
Pulled code: cyl 4 misfire (P0304)
Dropped Y-pipe and found cyl. #4 <something illegible> has dropped
causing a misfire
Recc. cylinder head replace
8 hours"

how odd. That leads me to actually believe your mechs more. I could see
a mechanical problem with a single cylinder yielding ONLT a misfire
code. I guess they COULD be reairing something simple and completely
fabricating everything else - but the sensible explanation is that it is
as they say. I was thinking along the lines "ah, this guy REALLY only
needs a front O2 sensore or a MAF at worst."

I suppose there is a likelihood of coolant 'weeping' on the other head
if that gasket wasn't replaced. Though the dealership probably installed
the Subaru additive, make sure it's on the paperwork. Wonder if they
elected to do the timing belt and any other parts in front?

Well, it seems like an odd failure and maybe you're good to go -
anyway, if the rest of the car IS very clean, maybe a rebuilt engine
could be an option. CCR is highly respected from what I read from
multiple sources - no direct connection or experience with them though.

just my $0.02

Carl

 

[johninKY]

Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be
curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve
guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can
be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

 

[hippo]

Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be
curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve
guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can
be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

Tend to agree, but could they have used some sort of minicam probe through
the port? My first guess would have been a broken spark plug, which often
achieves the same order of wreckage.Cheers

 

[aztek]

Well, it seems like an odd failure and maybe you're good to go -
anyway, if the rest of the car IS very clean, maybe a rebuilt engine
could be an option. CCR is highly respected from what I read from
multiple sources - no direct connection or experience with them though.

Thanks for the insight - I have an email off to CCR for a price
quote.

 

[aztek]

Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be
curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve
guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can
be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

I always have that gut feeling, too - this is my 28th car... lots
of experience with the particular gut feeling in questions

So, would you think a "second opinion" examination of
the car would be in order ? I'm thinking of looking around
for someone qualified who will hopefully not charge me too
much... already paid $115 for the first diagnosis.

 

[bigjim]

Hey buddy,
You bought an 8 year old car with ~150k miles. I usually keep a
car for 8 years as that is when frequent repair bills start popping
up. Do not be surprised if other items begin to fail. Used cars
are just that- USED !!! By the time you pay for repairs over the next
year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!! The $7800
you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it?
Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free
warranty!!!!
P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a
sign of anything. I had a totally rust free 86 Daytona. But it had
cracked exhaust manifold, tranny was troubling, and electrical
shorts. Looked good though. If you buy a used car buy one so cheap
you wont care about putting money into it.

 

[Bugalugs]

Hey buddy,
You bought an 8 year old car with ~150k miles. I usually keep a
car for 8 years as that is when frequent repair bills start popping
up. Do not be surprised if other items begin to fail. Used cars
are just that- USED !!! By the time you pay for repairs over the next
year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!! The $7800
you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it?
Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free
warranty!!!!
P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a
sign of anything. I had a totally rust free 86 Daytona. But it had
cracked exhaust manifold, tranny was troubling, and electrical
shorts. Looked good though. If you buy a used car buy one so cheap
you wont care about putting money into it.

Gee that was a great help
Wanker

 

[Cixcos]

I tend to disagree. I own four cars: 2001 Forester (bought new), 1998
Tercel (bought used), 1995 Protege (used), and 1994 Galant (used). The
Forester is by far the most reliable car I ever owned. The other older
cars have required various levels of maintenance and repair, but so far
I feel I come ahead as opposed to paying finance or lease monthly $$$. I
had a couple of VW's (Passat and Jetta) that were really high
maintenance. Even though I like them, I got rid of them due to high
running cost and aggravation. So far my Subaru, Toyota, Mazda, and
Mitsubishi stable serves me very well.
Best,
Ben

 

[AS]

By dropping the y exhaust pipe, it might be possible to see whether the
guides have moved or not, but... I think they may be trying to take you
for a ride.

I would have the compression checked. If it reads ok, i would look for
a more mundane explanation, like spark plugs, wires, ignition coil, etc etc.

Good luck

 

[Dano58]

So, would you think a "second opinion" examination of
the car would be in order ? I'm thinking of looking around
for someone qualified who will hopefully not charge me too
much... already paid $115 for the first diagnosis.

A second opinion at an independent shop (vs dealer) would not be a bad
idea. First off, any repairs done at a dealer will be cheaper at a non-
dealer. Second, if you can find a good Subie shop (you never said
where you're located) they may be more familiar with older Subies than
the dealers are these days.

Dan D
(formerly) '99 Legacy L (30th)
Central NJ USA

 

[.._..]

A second opinion is warranted for any repair on the order of $3k. At the
very least you can get an inspection for other stuff that might be wrong to
help with the decision to call it a total lost cause or not. You might have
another $2k in repairs in two months anyway...

What you describe sounds _a_lot_ like a bad O2 sensor to me (including the
misfire code). That repair is a couple hundred at most. So it is
worthwhile taking it to an independant mechanic.

I consider car dealerships and their repair departements one step above
spammers and slightly below the Russian mafia (who has honor or some sort)
as far as the slime-scale goes. You need only listen to a few friends to
find many many examples of people being defrauded with bogus repairs at car
dealerships. So use caution (unless money is not a concern for you).

 

[aztek]

A second opinion at an independent shop (vs dealer) would not be a bad
idea. First off, any repairs done at a dealer will be cheaper at a non-
dealer. Second, if you can find a good Subie shop (you never said
where you're located) they may be more familiar with older Subies than
the dealers are these days.

Thanks - I wondered as much...
I live in southern MN (Albert Lea), and work in Minneapolis.
Anyone have recommendations of a particularly good Subie
shop in the Twin Cities (or S. MN) ?

 

[aztek]

A second opinion is warranted for any repair on the order of $3k. At the
very least you can get an inspection for other stuff that might be wrong to
help with the decision to call it a total lost cause or not. You might have
another $2k in repairs in two months anyway...

Sounds reasonable...

What you describe sounds _a_lot_ like a bad O2 sensor to me (including the
misfire code). That repair is a couple hundred at most. So it is
worthwhile taking it to an independant mechanic.

That's exactly what I thought ! I felt compelled to try the
dealership
as I had trouble finding anyone I know that could recommend a good
Subaru shop.

I consider car dealerships and their repair departements one step above
spammers and slightly below the Russian mafia (who has honor or some sort)
as far as the slime-scale goes. You need only listen to a few friends to
find many many examples of people being defrauded with bogus repairs at car
dealerships. So use caution (unless money is not a concern for you).

I suspected as much, but its always hard for me to tell. As I
mentioned, I've had 28 cars and more than my fair share of
problems to go along with them. I've tried many shop
scenarios: small "good buddy" type places, friends, shops
recommended by friends, chain garages, places like Sears
or WalMart, about the only thing I've avoided is Dealerships,
mostly because of the prices. All the other scenarios I've
tried have mostly panned out badly, as well. The only one
I have come to trust doesn't work on imports very much, and
doesn't want to, and so won't promise me they'll be able
to deliver a great job.

Well, thanks for the insight - it helps to hear from others.
I'm waiting on a quote for a new motor, just to see if that's
something within reason. I also plan on a second opinion,
if I can find some place with some recommendation of
expertise to warrant some confidence.

 

[aztek]

I tend to disagree. I own four cars: 2001 Forester (bought new), 1998
Tercel (bought used), 1995 Protege (used), and 1994 Galant (used). The
Forester is by far the most reliable car I ever owned. The other older
cars have required various levels of maintenance and repair, but so far
I feel I come ahead as opposed to paying finance or lease monthly $$$. I
had a couple of VW's (Passat and Jetta) that were really high
maintenance. Even though I like them, I got rid of them due to high
running cost and aggravation. So far my Subaru, Toyota, Mazda, and
Mitsubishi stable serves me very well.

I bought this Subaru from this perspective: my luck with new vehicles
hasn't been any better (cost/value) than my luck with used, and I
decided
to find a car that I really like, and that stands a chance of being
worth
repairing and maintaining over a longer term, instead of being buried
under payments. I researched/compared/looked for this car for over
a year, and made what I thought was a compromise between buying
a junker and buying too "new". I thought repairing and maintaining
this type of used vehicle over time would pay off compared to buying
new (again). The other primary factor here is that I have a 220-mile
(round-trip) commute to work, and putting all those miles on a new
car is really painful, so I thought maintaining a solid used car made
more sense from that perspective, as well.

Obviously, this first repair proposal has made me second-guess
this theory. I actually figured on putting a new motor in eventually,
but not in the first month !

 

[aztek]

By dropping the y exhaust pipe, it might be possible to see whether the
guides have moved or not, but... I think they may be trying to take you
for a ride.

OK, that's what the mech said he did...

I would have the compression checked. If it reads ok, i would look for
a more mundane explanation, like spark plugs, wires, ignition coil, etc etc.

Thanks for that insight - a quick question: if compression were
great on all four cylinders (at least when #4 isn't mis-firing), would
that conclusively rule out a dropped valve guide ?

 

[aztek]

By dropping the y exhaust pipe, it might be possible to see whether the
guides have moved or not, but... I think they may be trying to take you
for a ride.

OK, that's what the mech said he did...

I would have the compression checked. If it reads ok, i would look for
a more mundane explanation, like spark plugs, wires, ignition coil, etc etc.

Thanks for that insight - a quick question: if compression were
great on all four cylinders (at least when #4 isn't mis-firing), would
that conclusively rule out a dropped valve guide ?

 

[aztek]

By the time you pay for repairs over the next
year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!!

I agree that is very possible - isn't it a little pessimistic,
though ?
I've had much better luck than that with many of my used cars,
and I wouldn't consider the luck I've had to be an example of
"great"... that is, I've definitely had my share of problems, and
probably more than my share - even so, I wouldn't characterize
things that negatively...

The $7800
you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it ?
Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free
warranty!!!!

Fair enough - you're talking about the opportunity cost. I understand
how that works, but the reality doesn't seem that simple. I agree
that
the worst-case scenario definitely shines favorably on buying new,
but reality lies somewhere between worst-case and best-case, typically
at a point difficult to discern, which is why I'm asking for opinions.

P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a
sign of anything.

Good point - thanks for pointing that out...

If you buy a used car buy one so cheap
you wont care about putting money into it.

That would pay off only if the money you have to
put into it ends up being less than the sum of a
more expensive car (presumably in better shape)
and the money you'd have to put into _it_ to get
to an equivalent state of "wellness". This is really
at the core of the insight I'm requesting - where is
the point at which I am likely to pass from the
"bought-for-X-amount-and-spent-Y-on-repairs"
being reasonable to it being unreasonable. I don't
think its trivial to make generalizations about it...