Diesel in U.S.

[Network Guru MCNGP© MCP LOTW©]

I am interested in purchasing a diesel Subaru in the USA. Why is it that
the Europeans get all the cool technology? There is a demand for diesel
engines in the US. Has a firm date for the US release been announced? What
does the rumor mill say?

 

[S.Hansen]

I am interested in purchasing a diesel Subaru in the USA. Why is it that
the Europeans get all the cool technology? There is a demand for diesel
engines in the US. Has a firm date for the US release been announced?
What does the rumor mill say?

Currently, the Subaru instructor says 2011 or 2012. As with anything, those
dates change every year.

 

[Ingo Menger]

I am interested in purchasing a diesel Subaru in the USA.  Why is it that
the Europeans get all the cool technology?

This is absolutely unusual, indeed. In most other cases, though,
Europe lags at least 1/2 year behind. Many models of brands like Ford,
Toyota, Honda etc never make it to Europe. Even german carmakers
designed models for the american market, build it there and market
there first.

In case of the diesel, there may be problems with emission standards
in certain US states. So I think, they introduced the brand new engine
in a diesel friendly market, where gas prices are higher as in the US
and diesel emission regulations not as strong.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

This is absolutely unusual, indeed. In most other cases, though,
Europe lags at least 1/2 year behind. Many models of brands like Ford,
Toyota, Honda etc never make it to Europe. Even german carmakers
designed models for the american market, build it there and market
there first.

In case of the diesel, there may be problems with emission standards
in certain US states. So I think, they introduced the brand new engine
in a diesel friendly market, where gas prices are higher as in the US
and diesel emission regulations not as strong.

This is near to my understanding. basically, it was easier to meet
European (and Aussie?) emissions standards - plus, diesel passenger
vehicles are more popular in Europe so there was more financial
incentive to release it ASAP. Why hold back for the US market if it can
be sold immediately?

 

[AS]

This is near to my understanding. basically, it was easier to meet
European (and Aussie?) emissions standards - plus, diesel passenger
vehicles are more popular in Europe so there was more financial incentive
to release it ASAP. Why hold back for the US market if it can be sold
immediately?

Isn't it that Subaru doesn't have the technology to meet
tougher US emissions standards? The verty expensive
urea, blue stuff, whatever they call it.

Two years ago there were hopes diesel would be popularized
in US, as low sulphur fuel was made available, and mandatory
in all 50 states (California being first in August 2006 I believe).

But soon after, lobbying (by GM, other big US manufacturers?)
began for even more stringent diesel emissions standards, and to
prevent diesel.

My guess is US will never see diesel, until GM/Chrysler,Ford
have a competitive diesel powerplant.

Oligopolist games/power, is in essence what prevents diesel
in US. or in other words US is not a free market for competitors to
sell whatever they wish.

AS

 

[boris]

Isn't it that Subaru doesn't have the technology to meet

tougher US emissions standards? The verty expensive
urea, blue stuff, whatever they call it.

Two years ago there were hopes diesel would be popularized
in US, as low sulphur fuel was made available, and mandatory
in all 50 states (California being first in August 2006 I believe).

But soon after, lobbying (by GM, other big US manufacturers?)
began for even more stringent diesel emissions standards, and to
prevent diesel.

My guess is US will never see diesel, until GM/Chrysler,Ford
have a competitive diesel powerplant.

Oligopolist games/power, is in essence what prevents diesel
in US. or in other words US is not a free market for competitors to
sell whatever they wish.

AS

I was driving by a gas station near my house today (San Fran. bay area):
diesel is even slightly cheaper than regular 87 gasoline.
Some german cars, including some SUVs, (sold in US) have the diesel option
already: BMW X5, MB M-class, etc. - those companies must have mastered clean
(good enough for US regulations) diesel technology.
http://www.edmunds.com/diesel/index.html
But those SUVs are $50K+ vehicles. I would love to be able to buy diesel
Outback with 30 mpg/city.

Boris

 

[AS]

I was driving by a gas station near my house today (San Fran. bay area):
diesel is even slightly cheaper than regular 87 gasoline.
Some german cars, including some SUVs, (sold in US) have the diesel option
already: BMW X5, MB M-class, etc. - those companies must have mastered
clean (good enough for US regulations) diesel technology.
http://www.edmunds.com/diesel/index.html
But those SUVs are $50K+ vehicles. I would love to be able to buy diesel
Outback with 30 mpg/city.

When Subaru can afford to licence 'blue' urea technology
from Mercedes, then you'll get a diesel option. This is unlikely
to happen soon.

That's why you see only big car companies and luxury models
with diesel. Volkswagen Jetta was cheapest with diesel and
Volkswagen was subsidizing this endeavor heavily. The 2010
Golf for US, is supposed to have diesel option.

Google the topic, there are plenty of articles.

AS

 

[Ingo Menger]

news:4a558160$0$1622$(e-mail address removed)...

When Subaru can afford to licence 'blue' urea technology
from Mercedes, then you'll get a diesel option.  This is unlikely
to happen soon.

Remember, also, that this was a brand new engine as it came to market
last year. How many years will development have taken? Let's say,
optimistically, first planning for a marketing concept started in
2005.
What was the situation in 2005? Mercedes praised their diesels on
every auto trade show, but US sales were like they'd tried to sell
sour beer. So, for me, it's understandable that Subaru didn't plan to
introduce the engine in the US.

An additional problem may be that they don't have an automatic
transmission to configure with this engine up to this very day. If you
buy an Outback diesel you get manual transmission. Which is fine for
Europeans, especially Germans, where the majority still regards AT as
a superfluous luxury. (I for my part belong to the minority that loves
AT, that's the reason I decided in favor of the 2.5i with AT.)

It remains to be said, that Subaru market policy is a mystery to me.
For example, it's not possible to buy an Outback 2.5 XT in Europe. The
Forrester 2.5 XT is on sale in Switzerland, but is not offered in
Germany. However, it has "Betriebserlaubnis" (a permit by the
authorities to operate this type of car), and the dealer said it's no
problem to order one and get a license plate for it. Which is fine,
but still strange, isn't it.

 

[AS]

news:4a558160$0$1622$(e-mail address removed)...

When Subaru can afford to licence 'blue' urea technology
from Mercedes, then you'll get a diesel option. This is unlikely
to happen soon.

The Forrester 2.5 XT is on sale in Switzerland, but is not offered in
Germany.

I would love to get a regular diesel Forester, perhaps even with
a manual tranny, but I have given up on this dream a long time ago.
(Lets see what Volkswagen gives America in 2010; it is supposed to
be a Golf TDI with 2.0L diesel).

Here is a nice article about Forester diesel; they end summing
up the American situation this way:

There's a particular segment of the American buying public that would run to
buy the Forester diesel just as fast as their sensible shoes could carry
them. But it seems problematic that Subaru will bring it over unless there's
an emissions breakthrough that means the company wouldn't have to acquire an
expensive license for an advanced "AdBlue" urea-injection system like
Mercedes' BlueTec. What a pity, since the Forester's tailgate is big enough
for an entire manifesto's worth of bumper stickers.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4286323.html

AS

 

[boris]

I would love to get a regular diesel Forester, perhaps even with
a manual tranny, but I have given up on this dream a long time ago.
(Lets see what Volkswagen gives America in 2010; it is supposed to
be a Golf TDI with 2.0L diesel).

Here is a nice article about Forester diesel; they end summing
up the American situation this way:

There's a particular segment of the American buying public that would run
to buy the Forester diesel just as fast as their sensible shoes could
carry them. But it seems problematic that Subaru will bring it over unless
there's an emissions breakthrough that means the company wouldn't have to
acquire an expensive license for an advanced "AdBlue" urea-injection
system like Mercedes' BlueTec. What a pity, since the Forester's tailgate
is big enough for an entire manifesto's worth of bumper stickers.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4286323.html

AS

The below numbers speak for themselves:

Jetta TDI price is $5K above MSRP on this web-based car sales web site:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=94086&acode=USB90VWC034D0&restore=false

but

Jetta with gasoline engine (2.0T) price is at around MSRP (on same web
site):
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=94086&acode=USB90VWC034C0&restore=false

Boris

 

[Ingo Menger]

I would love to get a regular diesel Forester, perhaps even with
a manual tranny, but I have given up on this dream a long time ago.

I can understand you, it's annoying to know there *is* the car you
want, but you can't buy one.
How about buying one, say, in Switzerland or Italy and importing it?
But perhaps, european prices plus shipping plus duties and taxes is
too expensive.

(Lets see what Volkswagen gives America in 2010; it is supposed to
be a Golf TDI with 2.0L diesel).

I'd rather walk.

 

[AS]

The below numbers speak for themselves:

Jetta TDI price is $5K above MSRP on this web-based car sales web site:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=94086&acode=USB90VWC034D0&restore=false

but

Jetta with gasoline engine (2.0T) price is at around MSRP (on same web
site):
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=94086&acode=USB90VWC034C0&restore=false

Boris

The Jetta sport-wagon no doubt must be a great car
especially in diesel form, ...but for that kind of money
it makes little sense, at least for me.

If you want to popularize diesel you have to do it right,
which means diesel engine must be an option in base
models, ...cheap cars, not most expensive or luxury
models.

Who the hell is going to buy a top of the line diesel
Mercedes, and what for? If you have that kind of money
what purpose does a diesel serve? To generate complaints
about noise, smelly fumes, etc. ?

If you sell a diesel engine in a small economy car,
say a Chevy Cobalt base model, then you'll
get a tremendous following.

Thats how diesels became popular in Europe.

I myself, in 1985, bought a brand new, bare-bone,
base model FIAT Regata 1.8L Diesel, for 6,250 USD.
Driven very carefully on highway it would make 100km
per 5-5.5 liters of diesel. This is more or less 43 miles
per gallon!

Since the Big Three don't have a good small diesel
engine, nor do they have a good small gasoline engine,
they are just going to use their power to prevent
the competition from entering US market, by lobbying
for ever more stringent emmision requirements.

Juest a few years ago, the main obstacle was high
sulphur americal fuel, now, that this has been cleared,
its just power of the Big Three.

But if Volkswagen is willing to subsidize and sell
the Golf TDI, in the US, it should make an impact,
at least it should serve as an illustration of what is possible.

AS

 

[AS]

I can understand you, it's annoying to know there *is* the car you
want, but you can't buy one.
How about buying one, say, in Switzerland or Italy and importing it?
But perhaps, european prices plus shipping plus duties and taxes is
too expensive.

The car must have a permit by Department of Transportation,
or some other authority like that, to be allowed on US roads.
US residents cannot import cars that do not possess such permit.
Every manufacturer gets one for the cars they bring to America.
So practically it is impossible to import foreign cars that do not
pass US permit requirements.

If you are a tourist or visitor, then you can bring whatever
you want with you. I have seen many Citroen in New Orleans
Louisiana, ...belonging to French visitors.

AS

 

[boris]

The Jetta sport-wagon no doubt must be a great car
especially in diesel form, ...but for that kind of money
it makes little sense, at least for me.

If you want to popularize diesel you have to do it right,
which means diesel engine must be an option in base
models, ...cheap cars, not most expensive or luxury
models.

Who the hell is going to buy a top of the line diesel
Mercedes, and what for? If you have that kind of money
what purpose does a diesel serve? To generate complaints
about noise, smelly fumes, etc. ?

If you sell a diesel engine in a small economy car,
say a Chevy Cobalt base model, then you'll
get a tremendous following.

Thats how diesels became popular in Europe.

I myself, in 1985, bought a brand new, bare-bone,
base model FIAT Regata 1.8L Diesel, for 6,250 USD.
Driven very carefully on highway it would make 100km
per 5-5.5 liters of diesel. This is more or less 43 miles
per gallon!

Since the Big Three don't have a good small diesel
engine, nor do they have a good small gasoline engine,
they are just going to use their power to prevent
the competition from entering US market, by lobbying
for ever more stringent emmision requirements.

Juest a few years ago, the main obstacle was high
sulphur americal fuel, now, that this has been cleared,
its just power of the Big Three.

But if Volkswagen is willing to subsidize and sell
the Golf TDI, in the US, it should make an impact,
at least it should serve as an illustration of what is possible.

AS

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets excellent fuel economy with a U.S. highway
mileage of 74 mpg (3.18 L/100 km), a city mileage of 51 mpg (4.61 L/100
km)...
....
Ford is aiming for a release date of the 2009 Fiesta range to the United
States for the end of 2009. Using engineering concepts derived from the
Fiesta ECOnetic, they also have the potential to become the first car
manufacturer to break the 100 mpg barrier for a gasoline powered car.
<<<QUOTE<<<
http://www.theirearth.com/index.php/news/ford-fiesta-econetic
It seems, there're plans to bring Ford Fiesta to US within 1-2 years.

But, in case of small/medium suvs/crossovers, japanese models (and many US
models) seem to achieve fuel-efficiency by using hybrid drivetrain - and,
probably, making sacrifice of winter and offroad capabilities as well as
handling and reliability (with all that extra weight for batteries, complex
designs: multiple electric motors, etc.).

Boris

 

[AS]

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets excellent fuel economy with a U.S. highway
mileage of 74 mpg (3.18 L/100 km), a city mileage of 51 mpg (4.61 L/100
km)...
...
Ford is aiming for a release date of the 2009 Fiesta range to the United
States for the end of 2009. Using engineering concepts derived from the
Fiesta ECOnetic, they also have the potential to become the first car
manufacturer to break the 100 mpg barrier for a gasoline powered car.
<<<QUOTE<<<
http://www.theirearth.com/index.php/news/ford-fiesta-econetic
It seems, there're plans to bring Ford Fiesta to US within 1-2 years.

That's the way to do it. Good looking too.
http://www.hybridcars.com/files/2009-ford-fiesta.jpg

If this car were to make it to the US, consumers would see what
is possible in a small diesel, and at what low cost, and would
no doubt demand such or similar vehicles in great numbers.

But somehow Ford is not really interested
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1021452/ford_doesnt_want_americans_to_buy_2009.html
Ford Doesn't Want Americans to Buy 2009 Ford Fiesta ECOnetic, the Rumored
Ford 65 MPG Car
Why Americans Should Ready Their Pitchforks and Demand Answers - from
Congress!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1021452/ford_doesnt_want_americans_to_buy_2009.html

AS

 

[Ingo Menger]

Since the Big Three don't have a good small diesel
engine, nor do they have a good small gasoline engine,
they are just going to use their power to prevent
the competition from entering US market, by lobbying
for ever more stringent emmision requirements.

They DO have them.
GM has (or at least had until very recently) two daughters, Opel in
Germany and Saab in Sweden. Opel is the 2nd rank german mass producer
for small and midsize cars after VW, and they sold lot's of diesel.
Same for Saab, although their market share is rather tiny.
Chrysler uses Mercedes engine, for example there was a Jeep Cherokee
CRD with the 2.7l diesel.
Ford's german branch also sells Focus and Mondeo with own diesel
engines.

 

[Ingo Menger]

But, in case of small/medium suvs/crossovers,  japanese models (and many US
models) seem to achieve fuel-efficiency by using hybrid drivetrain - and,
probably, making sacrifice of winter and offroad capabilities as well as
handling and reliability (with all that extra weight for batteries, complex
designs: multiple electric motors, etc.).

In Germany, Subaru promotes (and partly subsidizes) Forester and
Outback models that run on gasoline and LPG (bivalent). The 60l LPG
tank sits in the place of the reserve wheel.
LPG has a lesser energy density than gas, so you need more liters LPG
than gasoline per 100km. For technical reason, the tank may hold only
52 Liters LPG. Nevertheless, I can drive around 480km on LPG alone for
about 30 EUR, which is around 50$.
This is currently economical in germany, as LPG is exempted from fuel
tax. It even beats diesel: with 6l/1000km, I'd need around 30l diesel
for 480km, and diesel currently costs between 1,05 and 1,15. Plus,
diesel cars are taxed heftily in comparision with gasoline cars.

 

[boris]

But, in case of small/medium suvs/crossovers, japanese models (and many US
models) seem to achieve fuel-efficiency by using hybrid drivetrain - and,
probably, making sacrifice of winter and offroad capabilities as well as
handling and reliability (with all that extra weight for batteries,
complex
designs: multiple electric motors, etc.).

In Germany, Subaru promotes (and partly subsidizes) Forester and
Outback models that run on gasoline and LPG (bivalent). The 60l LPG
tank sits in the place of the reserve wheel.
LPG has a lesser energy density than gas, so you need more liters LPG
than gasoline per 100km. For technical reason, the tank may hold only
52 Liters LPG. Nevertheless, I can drive around 480km on LPG alone for
about 30 EUR, which is around 50$.
This is currently economical in germany, as LPG is exempted from fuel
tax. It even beats diesel: with 6l/1000km, I'd need around 30l diesel
for 480km, and diesel currently costs between 1,05 and 1,15. Plus,
diesel cars are taxed heftily in comparision with gasoline cars.

In US there're also some autos that use natural gas fuel. In Utah natural
gas fuel is subsidised - so it's very cheap; also some of gas stations
there have it. So, cars with natural gas propulsion are very popular there,
for example: Honda Civic GX. But, as you just mentioned, because density of
(even compressed) natural gas is relatively low, Civic GX has range of only
200 miles.

Boris

 

[boris]

If this car were to make it to the US, consumers would see what

is possible in a small diesel, and at what low cost, and would
no doubt demand such or similar vehicles in great numbers.

But somehow Ford is not really interested
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1021452/ford_doesnt_want_americans_to_buy_2009.html
Ford Doesn't Want Americans to Buy 2009 Ford Fiesta ECOnetic, the Rumored
Ford 65 MPG Car
Why Americans Should Ready Their Pitchforks and Demand Answers - from
Congress!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1021452/ford_doesnt_want_americans_to_buy_2009.html

Hopefully, Ford will do it. Points of view change with time - with $5+
gasoline (in near future, probably) many people would love to try diesel, I
think.

Boris

 

[Squat'n Dive]

I am interested in purchasing a diesel Subaru in the USA.  Why is itthat
the Europeans get all the cool technology?

You have to read the C&D article on the refineries setup differences
in the US and Europe.
Basically it boils down to this: euro refineries output much more
diesel than the us refineries do.
The second issue is that european market is not as sensitive to the
cost of new cars
because the consumers do not have as much info to research the prices
and models
and piss poor folk don't go car shopping (I don't).
The car makers get back to the us car buyers by offering crappier cars
though at lower prices than in europe.