a few more timing belt tips

[weelliott]

I posted some tips on timing belt replacement about a year ago when I
did one on my 2.2 liter 98 legacy. There were a few responses to that
with additional advice, and I think it is a good thread. This past
weekend I did my 2.5 liter SOHC 2004 outback. Here are a few things I
learned:

The crank pulley has a hash mark on the BACK of the pulley. Any marks
on the front are meaningless and will only lead you astray. I initally
set up my belt's marks with the two hash marks on the front of the cam
pulleys and the dot on the front of the crank pulley. This was 90°
away from the hash mark. If I had started the engine like this it
would have been certain disaster. Fortunately I did an idiot check and
tried to turn it over by hand first. When I felt resistance I knew
something was wrong and looked at a youtube video concerning a 2001
forester TB replacement.

Turning the engine over by hand using the camshaft bolts doesn't work.
I did this and wound up having the belt skip two teeth on the crank
shaft. I thought I had a defective new tensioner and started cursing
since it was Sunday afternoon and no Subaru parts places were open. I
put the old tensioner back on and tried turning the engine over with
the passenger side cam(which woudl be less likely to make it slip
teeth since it puts more of the blet under tension) It slipped at the
crank again. I had been using the cams since it takes more torque to
turn them, so I figured I'd do les damage to valves if everything
wasn't assembled properly. Afdter talking to a professional Audi/VW
mechanic friend of mine, he confirmed that many engines will slip
teeth if you use the cams to turn them, and that I should use the
crank only. I reassembled it with the known good tensioner, cranked it
with the crank, and it was golden. So then I took it apart for
probably about the 15th time(seriously) and put on the new tensioner.

So what I learned in my 15 or so times of taking the belt off and
putting it back on: The order that you take the tensioner and idler
pulleys off is critical and makes all the difference!! I can't stress
this enough. When taking it all apart, line up your marks to the
block, then you can actually press down on the TB just to the right of
the tensioner to make the tensioner wheel go up, thereby alligning the
tensioner holes, then stick your allen wrench in there. Next you first
take off the bottom left pulley. It is the bottom smooth pulley. Then
take off the toothed one by the water pump. Now you can get the belt
off.

When putting it back together, bolt the tensioner to the block, loop
the belt through the crank pulley, tensioner, drivers side cam, water
pump, and passenger side cam in that order. Push down on the bottom of
the belt to keep tension on it so teeth don't slip anywhere. Then put
a breaker bar on teh passenger sid ecam and nudge it a little CCW to
put more slack into the bottom of the belt. This will amke it much
easier to put on the toothed idler pulley. You must put that one on
first!!!. Once you get the toothed one on, then put on the smooth
lower idler pulley. If you put the lower smooth one on first there
will not be enough slack in teh belt to get the toothed one on unless
you have superhuman strength and luck.

Also, I agree with Steve that you don't need to take out the radiator.
You do need to take the fans out though.

I used the trick of putting a breaker bar on the crank bolt and
tapping the starter, but instead of putting it on top of the frame
rail by the battery, I put it 180 degrees from that so it hit the
bottom of the frame rail on the passenger side of the car.There are no
fragile AC lines or transmission fluid cooler lines or batteries
there. Much safer.

Good luck

 

[StephenH]

I posted some tips on timing belt replacement about a year ago when I
did one on my 2.2 liter 98 legacy. There were a few responses to that
with additional advice, and I think it is a good thread. This past
weekend I did my 2.5 liter SOHC 2004 outback. Here are a few things I
learned:

The crank pulley has a hash mark on the BACK of the pulley. Any marks
on the front are meaningless and will only lead you astray. I initally
set up my belt's marks with the two hash marks on the front of the cam
pulleys and the dot on the front of the crank pulley. This was 90°
away from the hash mark. If I had started the engine like this it
would have been certain disaster. Fortunately I did an idiot check and
tried to turn it over by hand first. When I felt resistance I knew
something was wrong and looked at a youtube video concerning a 2001
forester TB replacement.

Turning the engine over by hand using the camshaft bolts doesn't work.
I did this and wound up having the belt skip two teeth on the crank
shaft. I thought I had a defective new tensioner and started cursing
since it was Sunday afternoon and no Subaru parts places were open. I
put the old tensioner back on and tried turning the engine over with
the passenger side cam(which woudl be less likely to make it slip
teeth since it puts more of the blet under tension) It slipped at the
crank again. I had been using the cams since it takes more torque to
turn them, so I figured I'd do les damage to valves if everything
wasn't assembled properly. Afdter talking to a professional Audi/VW
mechanic friend of mine, he confirmed that many engines will slip
teeth if you use the cams to turn them, and that I should use the
crank only. I reassembled it with the known good tensioner, cranked it
with the crank, and it was golden. So then I took it apart for
probably about the 15th time(seriously) and put on the new tensioner.

So what I learned in my 15 or so times of taking the belt off and
putting it back on: The order that you take the tensioner and idler
pulleys off is critical and makes all the difference!! I can't stress
this enough. When taking it all apart, line up your marks to the
block, then you can actually press down on the TB just to the right of
the tensioner to make the tensioner wheel go up, thereby alligning the
tensioner holes, then stick your allen wrench in there. Next you first
take off the bottom left pulley. It is the bottom smooth pulley. Then
take off the toothed one by the water pump. Now you can get the belt
off.

When putting it back together, bolt the tensioner to the block, loop
the belt through the crank pulley, tensioner, drivers side cam, water
pump, and passenger side cam in that order. Push down on the bottom of
the belt to keep tension on it so teeth don't slip anywhere. Then put
a breaker bar on teh passenger sid ecam and nudge it a little CCW to
put more slack into the bottom of the belt. This will amke it much
easier to put on the toothed idler pulley. You must put that one on
first!!!. Once you get the toothed one on, then put on the smooth
lower idler pulley. If you put the lower smooth one on first there
will not be enough slack in teh belt to get the toothed one on unless
you have superhuman strength and luck.

Also, I agree with Steve that you don't need to take out the radiator.
You do need to take the fans out though.

I used the trick of putting a breaker bar on the crank bolt and
tapping the starter, but instead of putting it on top of the frame
rail by the battery, I put it 180 degrees from that so it hit the
bottom of the frame rail on the passenger side of the car.There are no
fragile AC lines or transmission fluid cooler lines or batteries
there. Much safer.

Good luck

good tips, you learn from your mistakes.

Putting all 3 marks in the "home position" is not top dead center, its
the timing belt spot. Why? Valve clearance. in this position the
pistons are 1/2 down the cylinders and the cams can be turned without
risk of the valves hitting the piston. Whenever you need to roll a
engine over, i leave the belt on and turn it by the crank- I do have a
tool to grab the crankshaft, but some use the dampener pulley and
socket. IF you need to roll the engine over and the belt is off,
look at the crank mark and see if it is on or near it's spot;
carefully correct it feeling for anything hitting the pistons. IF the
cam pulleys are loose, then the valves are fully retracted anyway and
you can safely move the crank.
So what I will do, feel both cams, making sure there is no spring
tension on them. the left side (facing the engine) will be near its
home position the right will be way off. Turn the crank until its
home, then balance the right cam in its home spot. Slip the belt on.
Some don't remove the smooth belt pulley, it can be done by just
removing the geared one.

The basic job pays a tech only 2.4 hours, so you have to beat that
time to be profitable. I'd hate to tell you how quick you can get with
air tools, a lift and a lot of practice.....

 

[weelliott]

good tips, you learn from your mistakes.

Putting all 3 marks in the "home position" is not top dead center, its
the timing belt spot. Why? Valve clearance. in this position the
pistons are 1/2 down the cylinders and the cams can be turned without
risk of the valves hitting the piston. Whenever you need to roll a
engine over, i leave the belt on and turn it by the crank- I do have a
tool to grab the crankshaft, but some use the dampener pulley and
socket. IF you need to roll the engine over and the belt is off,
look at the crank mark and see if it is on or near it's spot;
carefully correct it feeling for anything hitting the pistons. IF the
cam pulleys are loose, then the valves are fully retracted anyway and
you can safely move the crank.
So what I will do, feel both cams, making sure there is no spring
tension on them. the left side (facing the engine) will be near its
home position the right will be way off. Turn the crank until its
home, then balance the right cam in its home spot. Slip the belt on.
Some don't remove the smooth belt pulley, it can be done by just
removing the geared one.

The basic job pays a tech only 2.4 hours, so you have to beat that
time to be profitable. I'd hate to tell you how quick you can get with
air tools, a lift and a lot of practice.....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, the first time I did it I took about eight leisurely hours. I
was probably working about 4 of that. The second time--this past one--
I was only two hours in when I tried to hand crank the engine and
spent an eternity worrying about it and trying to figure out where to
go from there. After disassembling and reassembling the tensioners so
many times I could see easily getting it all done with air tools in an
hour from popping the hood to starting to fill the antifreeze back up.
With my hand tools I think I could beat two hours for that same
duration.

During the more worrisome parts of the experience when I thought I had
bent a valve and that was creating extra drag causing the belt to skip
teeth, I was swearing never to do surgery on a car that had stakes
this high. Now I look back at it and say, "Wow, that is an easy job
once you REALLY know what you're doing. Maybe I should volunteer to do
my neighbor's when he needs his done."

 

[StephenH]

Yeah, the first time I did it I took about eight leisurely hours. I
was probably working about 4 of that. The second time--this past one--
I was only two hours in when I tried to hand crank the engine and
spent an eternity worrying about it and trying to figure out where to
go from there. After disassembling and reassembling the tensioners so
many times I could see easily getting it all done with air tools in an
hour from popping the hood to starting to fill the antifreeze back up.
With my hand tools I think I could beat two hours for that same
duration.

During the more worrisome parts of the experience when I thought I had
bent a valve and that was creating extra drag causing the belt to skip
teeth, I was swearing never to do surgery on a car that had stakes
this high. Now I look back at it and say, "Wow, that is an easy job
once you REALLY know what you're doing. Maybe I should volunteer to do
my neighbor's when he needs his done."

i would volunteer if I were you. Only look at the heads and make sure
they are not leaking prior. not fair to do all the work then take it
all apart again.

If a subie were to break a timing belt, the chances of the pistons
hitting the valves are low.

Did a 4 cam timing belt and seals today. 4 hours but it was rusty and
dirty; had some issued. Balancer stuck on. broken covers, Thank God I
had a few used parts to help them out with.

Also, I can't stress how rarely we change water-pumps. we never seem
to need to do them with the belts. only seen 2? failed in 4 years at
this shop.

 

[weelliott]

i would volunteer if I were you. Only look at the heads and make sure
they are not leaking prior. not fair to do all the work then take it
all apart again.

If a subie were to break a timing belt, the chances of the pistons
hitting the valves are low.

Did a 4 cam timing belt and seals today. 4 hours but it was rusty and
dirty; had some issued. Balancer stuck on. broken covers, Thank God I
had a few used parts to help them out with.

Also, I can't stress how rarely we change water-pumps. we never seem
to need to do them with the belts. only seen 2? failed in 4 years at
this shop.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Concerning the water pumps: Are you saying that you don't change them
with the belts and have only seen two fail at all, or are you saying
that you don't change them at the same time as the belt unless they
look like they' are failing, and that has only been twice?

I guess what I am really asking is how many miles do you think they
last? 120k? 200k? forever?

I had 138k on that engine when I changed the belt. I just bought the
car in February with knowledge of timing belt or water pump
replacement history. I figure that I'll wait about 100k miles to
change it and am not confident that the water pump will last 240k
miles. Are you saying that they typically do?

 

[StephenH]

Concerning the water pumps: Are you saying that you don't change them
with the belts and have only seen two fail at all, or are you saying
that you don't change them at the same time as the belt unless they
look like they' are failing, and that has only been twice?

I guess what I am really asking is how many miles do you think they
last? 120k? 200k? forever?

I had 138k on that engine when I changed the belt. I just bought the
car in February with knowledge of timing belt or water pump
replacement history. I figure that I'll wait about 100k miles to
change it and am not confident that the water pump will last 240k
miles. Are you saying that they typically do?

If I had to choose a fail item, it would be the idler pulleys, by far.
Can't tell you how long anything will last, but unless the customer
requests it, Ill feel the bearing and look for a leak. I've only done
2 and I think they were customer rec's. The 4 cam the other day we put
a new geared idler in it, and you can see where the idler had failed
prior. today a older 2.2 had a broken bolt for the tensioner pulley