Studded snow tires or non-studded?

[JohnC]

2001 Legacy L Sedan AWD

My wife had new all seasons on the car last year from Sears and got stuck in
our own driveway in just 5 or 6 inches of snow.

This year I plan on getting dedicated winter tires. I was all set buy a set
of 4 from tirerack and they tried to talk me out of studs, saying the new
style winter tires have more snow/ice traction without studs - I just don't
see how a plain tire without studs can grip slippery snow that has black ice
under it. I would think the studs would scratch into the ice to pull as
long as the center of the tire did not allow a bubble of ice to form.

I checked the current posts and didn't see any talk about snow tires, but I
would assumethis question comes up this time of year,
John

 

[FNO]

2001 Legacy L Sedan AWD

My wife had new all seasons on the car last year from Sears and got stuck in
our own driveway in just 5 or 6 inches of snow.

This year I plan on getting dedicated winter tires. I was all set buy a set
of 4 from tirerack and they tried to talk me out of studs, saying the new
style winter tires have more snow/ice traction without studs - I just don't
see how a plain tire without studs can grip slippery snow that has black ice
under it. I would think the studs would scratch into the ice to pull as
long as the center of the tire did not allow a bubble of ice to form.

I checked the current posts and didn't see any talk about snow tires, but I
would assumethis question comes up this time of year,
John

They are right. Some of the new winter tires have silica in the rubber and
sipes that grip the ice better. The studs lift the sipes off of the road,
and they wear horribly on dry pavement. So, unless you are in a really cold
place where ice always covers the road and doesn't melt, your studs would
only be effective for a few weeks. Then you'd be better off without them.

 

[H]

If she got stuck with AWD and new all-seasons in just 5-6" of snow then your
money is probably better spent on driving lessons. Take it from a Canadian,
driving style is everything on snow, regardless of the vehicle or equipment.

Canadian eh!

 

[-rick-]

My wife had new all seasons on the car last year from Sears and got stuck in
our own driveway in just 5 or 6 inches of snow.

This year I plan on getting dedicated winter tires. I was all set buy a set
of 4 from tirerack and they tried to talk me out of studs, saying the new
style winter tires have more snow/ice traction without studs - I just don't
see how a plain tire without studs can grip slippery snow that has black ice
under it.

There are many conditions where studs are detrimental to traction. I think they
are right and you are better off on average without them. They also tear up the
roads.

-rick-

 

[JDC]

You are better off with studless Q rated snow tires such as the Nokian RSI,
Blizzak's or Michelin Ice-x tires. If you want an H rated tire look at the
Nokina WR or the Dunlop M2 or M3. I drive in New England, a lot up in
Vermont on back roads and have never felt the need of studs.

 

[TG]

One of the cheap limited slips would probably do you a lot more good than
different tires. TG

 

[JP]

I really dont understand what others are saying. Studs have proved to be in
EVERY condition better than any studless tires, so please consider what you
are doing. I do understand that studless are better to drive when roads are
clean and dry. I have had 6 years studless and 12 years with studs. This
year, with my new WRX I didnt even consider anything else than Nokia HP4
tires with studs.

What ever material the studless have in it rubber, it doesnt make any
difference compared to friction with studs. I havent seen one test article
that would state different. Studs are the ones that really bite, but arent
in every conditions the most user or road friendly to drive.

 

[Juhan Leemet]

There are many conditions where studs are detrimental to traction. I think they
are right and you are better off on average without them. They also tear up the
roads.

ISTR they are illegal in some places (Montreal, QC?).
Legal here, in St. John's, NF. Gonna put mine on soon.

 

[Juhan Leemet]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:29:39 -0300, Juhan Leemet wrote:
[snippage]

ISTR they are illegal in some places (Montreal, QC?).
Legal here, in St. John's, NF. Gonna put mine on soon.

er, sorry if this was multi-posted, my news server went crazy for a while.

 

[-rick-]

I really dont understand what others are saying. Studs have proved to be in
EVERY condition better than any studless tires, so please consider what you are
doing. I do understand that studless are better to drive when roads are clean
and dry. I have had 6 years studless and 12 years with studs. This year, with
my new WRX I didnt even consider anything else than Nokia HP4 tires with studs.

What ever material the studless have in it rubber, it doesnt make any
difference compared to friction with studs. I havent seen one test article
that would state different. Studs are the ones that really bite, but arent in
every conditions the most user or road friendly to drive.

OK, I'm willing to learn, can you reference any tests that show better traction
with studs on wet surfaces?
-rick-

 

[Hans]

Studs will do nothing for snow, they are for ice. Just got mine
installed. Main difference so far : lots of noise. Looking forward to
getting some ice, though !

Hans

 

[Danny Russell]

As others have noted, studs are a tradeoff. Ice traction is GREATLY enhanced, while high-speed
emergency avoidance manuever handling on dry or wet pavement is rather severely negatively affected.
Studs are no panacea, and they are noisey.

The new generation of "performance snows" from Dunlop, Bridgestone, etc., with H speed rating
perform really quite well in snow, ice, slush, wet, & dry. Clever tread design, sipes, and silica
compound - good stuff.

 

[JP]

Well you guys are talking about compromise all the time. Dunlop.
Bridgestone, etc. do not manufature any good stud or studless tires what
comes to real winter tires. And Im not talking about mid-range all season
tires. The real stud and studless manufactures are Nokian, Conti Winter
Viking and thats it.... others just dont do the job.

www.tuulilasi.fi
www.tekniikanmaailma.fi

Well you naturally cant read finnish but for example Dunlop was the poorest
tyre in all test ;-)

 

[Larry Weil]

The new generation of "performance snows" from Dunlop, Bridgestone,
etc., with H speed rating perform really quite well in snow, ice,
slush, wet, & dry. Clever tread design, sipes, and silica compound -
good stuff.

My impression, perhaps based on the first generation of such tires, is
that they wear much faster than "conventional" snows. Is this still
true? This is of concern since I usually drive about 10,000 miles each
winter.

 

[FNO]

As others have noted, studs are a tradeoff. Ice traction is GREATLY enhanced, while high-speed
emergency avoidance manuever handling on dry or wet pavement is rather severely negatively affected.
Studs are no panacea, and they are noisey.

The new generation of "performance snows" from Dunlop, Bridgestone, etc., with H speed rating
perform really quite well in snow, ice, slush, wet, & dry. Clever tread design, sipes, and silica
compound - good stuff.

Yes. Any tire represents a compromise; studs included. While we have a
significant amount of ice where I leave, we also have a considerable number
of freeze/thaw cycles and the benefits of studs go away after a few months
from being beat up on dry roads. In addition, the compounds in all-seasons
are not very good for us, because it is cold enough that an all-season loses
grip quickly (happens jsut below freezing). We also get dumped on with
significant amounts of snow. Consequently, an intermediate compound snow
tire with aggressive tread is way better than anything else.

If you live in the north where is freezes and stays that way, studs are the
way to go. Otherwise, winter tires have been designed with intermediate
conditions in mind; they are not bad on ice, not bad on snow, not bad in the
wet and not bad in the dry. They are not the best in any of those
conditions. But, on average, studless tires are better since the tire
manufacturers have not designed them with studs in mind.

 

[Juhan Leemet]

My impression, perhaps based on the first generation of such tires, is
that they wear much faster than "conventional" snows. Is this still
true? This is of concern since I usually drive about 10,000 miles each
winter.

I think it is the studs that can wear quickly if you drive a lot on dry
pavement, even if it is winter/cold. The studs end up getting rounded and
their effectiveness decreases. I think they can still "work" to some
extent by providing a pressure point on the icy surface, which I believe
can actually cause the ice to melt, providing a place to "grip". The
physics must be pretty complicated, tho, since wet ice is more slippery
than dry, but the little depression must provide more grip for the stud
to "fit into". Sharper stud edges are better (smaller contact pressure
point, better grip), but those sharp edges do not last long. ISTR someone
saying the studs themselves lose effectiveness in about 10K miles or so?
So it's a dilemma: studs are initially better, then become worse than
other snow tires. It also seems obvious that the tire area used for studs
leaves less tire area for treads. As they say, YMMV! 8^)

FWIW, I have studs, going into my Nth winter with them. We'll see...

 

[Danny Russell]

Yes. Any tire represents a compromise; studs included. While we have a
significant amount of ice where I leave, we also have a considerable number
of freeze/thaw cycles and the benefits of studs go away after a few months
from being beat up on dry roads. In addition, the compounds in all-seasons
are not very good for us, because it is cold enough that an all-season loses
grip quickly (happens jsut below freezing). We also get dumped on with
significant amounts of snow. Consequently, an intermediate compound snow
tire with aggressive tread is way better than anything else.

If you live in the north where is freezes and stays that way, studs are the
way to go. Otherwise, winter tires have been designed with intermediate
conditions in mind; they are not bad on ice, not bad on snow, not bad in the
wet and not bad in the dry. They are not the best in any of those
conditions. But, on average, studless tires are better since the tire
manufacturers have not designed them with studs in mind.

Thank you FNO.

Of course I'd love to feel the secure bite of studs at every icy intersection I stumble upon (who
wouldn't?), but they wouldn't work for me in Michigan where I drive 85% of winter miles on dry
pavement and the other 15% on treacherous, rutted & ice slicked, ungodly conditions. Not everyone
has the same blend of driving conditions to deal with, therefore different strokes for different
folks.

I've sincerely been blown away by the overall performance of the Dunlop Wintersports on my OBS for
the last three winters. By far the most satisying tire I've ever purchased. IMO, the new Nokian WR
looks to have been heavily influenced by it. I will buy it again.

By contrast, my summer tire for three years running has been the Bridgestone RE-950, and while it
has been a good tire, it just lacks personality or something, I can't quite explain it. I won't buy
it again. -Danny

 

[uglymoney]

Thank you FNO.

Of course I'd love to feel the secure bite of studs at every icy intersection I stumble upon (who
wouldn't?), but they wouldn't work for me in Michigan where I drive 85% of winter miles on dry
pavement and the other 15% on treacherous, rutted & ice slicked, ungodly conditions. Not everyone
has the same blend of driving conditions to deal with, therefore different strokes for different
folks.

I've sincerely been blown away by the overall performance of the Dunlop Wintersports on my OBS for
the last three winters. By far the most satisying tire I've ever purchased. IMO, the new Nokian WR
looks to have been heavily influenced by it. I will buy it again.

By contrast, my summer tire for three years running has been the Bridgestone RE-950, and while it
has been a good tire, it just lacks personality or something, I can't quite explain it. I won't buy
it again. -Danny

I had Dunlop Wintersports on my old Taurus SHO. They were a good
tire. Lasted me 4 winters, though on the last winter they spun badly
going up Teton Pass, and I got stuck with them twice in deep snow.
Good choice for a midwestern tire. I think some of the newer tires
may be able to challenge them for wear though....

Traded for the Outback and ordered a set of studless Yokahama Guardex
K2 F720's mounted on some nice 5 spoke aluminum wheels that I bought
only because steel was all sold out at the time, but they look sweet..
They are UNBELIEVABLE in the snow and great on ice. Not all that bad
on dry roads, not as good as wintersports, but nothing to complain
about. This will be there third season on my 02 Outback Wagon with
limited slip rear diff. They have maybe a couple thousands less tread
than a brand new pair of BFG TA HR4 all season tires that I have
sitting in the garage. The Yoka's are definetely better in the snow
than the Dunlop Wintersports and seem to be wearing about slightly
better actually (I will be the first to admit that its tough to
compare though - 2 different cars and drivetrains - but same driver-
same sort of road trips).

I dislike the summer Bridgestone Potenza's that came with my Outback.
I agree with you completely here - nothing to get excited about in
these tires at all. Not that good at anything, and wearing as if they
are sticky or something. Cheap OEM. Oh well. I'm excited to get
some new ones. Probably go with something long lived.

Oh, here is a pic of my setup. Since this shot, I added some Yakima
crossbars, and redrilled my Spacesaver box so that I could move it
ahead slightly allowing me to open my trunk completely.

http://uglymoney.home.mchsi.com/_sgg/f10000.htm

nate
02 OBW MT5

 

[Danny Russell]

http://uglymoney.home.mchsi.com/_sgg/f10000.htm

Yeah, looks cool Nate. It's tough to beat the look of a basic 5-spoke alloy IMO, I did the same for
my spare set of wheels.

I'm going to look into those Yokahama's. They've always made a good tire. -Danny

 

[Ken]

I tried Blizzak's & they worked OK, but they wore out fast! Soft compound in
the rubber.
I will stay with my studded tires, they work great & last a lot longer.