Strange H6 Outback Problem

[Al]

I bought my H6 Outback in June of '03. It is used almost exclusively by
my wife and it has performed flawlessly until now.

Last Friday night my wife and I were getting ready to go out to dinner.
I went out and tried to start the car. all I got was a whinny. I tried
several times and it would not fire. No "Check Engine" light came on.
What to do? Well we got into my trusty ¹91 Jeep Laredo and went to
dinner.

The next morning I went out to see what was what. I first opened the
hood and checked for loose wires, low oil, and any other idiot things
that could have gone wrong. Nothing! All appeared normal.

I got into the car and tried to start it. I just got the whinny. The
engine would turn over, but it would not start and again no trouble
lights. I remembered that my ¹86 Jeep would behave this way when the
engine was flooded. But how does a non-carbuerated engine flood? So,
since the battery was good and it was relatively warm, about 50F, I
tried starting again. This time I kept cranking the engine. I then heard
a cough. I stopped and said "Aha!"

So I proceeded to crank the engine again. More coughs and still no
trouble lights. It finally was coughing about a coupla times a second,
and then it caught and slowly revved up. I kept the RPMs to about 1500
until the RPMs would just drop off gradually. It finally ran normally.
But, wow, the gasoline smell. The wind was blowing in just the right
direction and, of course, the smell went into my house though an open
vent window in the basement.

The car kept running so I took a chance and drove around the block. All
was normal! I shut the engine down and it restarted instantly and still
no trouble light. So I took the cell phone and took our refuse to the
recycling station. Normally I use the Jeep for that. I stopped and
started the car a few times while on my trip; no problem and still no
trouble lights.

So what could be responsible? The only thing I can put a finger on is
what had happened on Friday during the day. We were raking our leaves.
There were some leaves under the Outback so I started it and moved it
back about 10 feet. I removed the leaves and then started up the Outback
and moved it back into its original position. In each case, the engine
was not on for than a few seconds.

All I can think of is that the engine mixture is rich during original
startup. Perhaps two startups within a few minutes and with the engine
running just for a few seconds somehow screws up the computer or else
the engine is flooded. After all, it had all of the characteristics of a
flooded engine. Now this is bizarre. I would not expect that a modern
engine would behave this way.

When the ¹86 Jeep flooded, I would hold the choke plate open with a
clothespin while I cranked. This would clear out the flooded condition.
Once in a while a nice flame would shoot out of the carburetor. Can¹t do
this with the Outback. Only by cranking long enough for the gas to be
pumped out will it clear; at least that is my hypothesis.

The car has been behaving normally and no "Check Engine" light has come
on. Anybody have any ideas?

Al

 

[Alan]

I bought my H6 Outback in June of '03. It is used almost exclusively by
my wife and it has performed flawlessly until now.

Last Friday night my wife and I were getting ready to go out to dinner.
I went out and tried to start the car. all I got was a whinny. I tried
several times and it would not fire. No "Check Engine" light came on.
What to do? Well we got into my trusty ¹91 Jeep Laredo and went to
dinner.

The next morning I went out to see what was what. I first opened the
hood and checked for loose wires, low oil, and any other idiot things
that could have gone wrong. Nothing! All appeared normal.

I got into the car and tried to start it. I just got the whinny. The
engine would turn over, but it would not start and again no trouble
lights. I remembered that my ¹86 Jeep would behave this way when the
engine was flooded. But how does a non-carbuerated engine flood? So,
since the battery was good and it was relatively warm, about 50F, I
tried starting again. This time I kept cranking the engine. I then heard
a cough. I stopped and said "Aha!"

So I proceeded to crank the engine again. More coughs and still no
trouble lights. It finally was coughing about a coupla times a second,
and then it caught and slowly revved up. I kept the RPMs to about 1500
until the RPMs would just drop off gradually. It finally ran normally.
But, wow, the gasoline smell. The wind was blowing in just the right
direction and, of course, the smell went into my house though an open
vent window in the basement.

The car kept running so I took a chance and drove around the block. All
was normal! I shut the engine down and it restarted instantly and still
no trouble light. So I took the cell phone and took our refuse to the
recycling station. Normally I use the Jeep for that. I stopped and
started the car a few times while on my trip; no problem and still no
trouble lights.

So what could be responsible? The only thing I can put a finger on is
what had happened on Friday during the day. We were raking our leaves.
There were some leaves under the Outback so I started it and moved it
back about 10 feet. I removed the leaves and then started up the Outback
and moved it back into its original position. In each case, the engine
was not on for than a few seconds.

All I can think of is that the engine mixture is rich during original
startup. Perhaps two startups within a few minutes and with the engine
running just for a few seconds somehow screws up the computer or else
the engine is flooded. After all, it had all of the characteristics of a
flooded engine. Now this is bizarre. I would not expect that a modern
engine would behave this way.

When the ¹86 Jeep flooded, I would hold the choke plate open with a
clothespin while I cranked. This would clear out the flooded condition.
Once in a while a nice flame would shoot out of the carburetor. Can¹t do
this with the Outback. Only by cranking long enough for the gas to be
pumped out will it clear; at least that is my hypothesis.

The car has been behaving normally and no "Check Engine" light has come
on. Anybody have any ideas?

Al

Happened to me once or twice in my garage. Never happened again. Kept
cranking- eventually started, and all was fine. 04 OBW H6 3.0 LLBean. If it
ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[mulder]

You're probably correct about the cause being that the car was started,
moved and immediately shut off a couple of times. This would dump extra
fuel into the cylinders to be used for cold starting and running but
instead of being burned it was allowed to sit there and then the process
repeated again.
On modern injected vehicles, there is a "clear flood" mode that is the
equivalent of holding the choke open on your old Jeep. If you suspect
the engine is flooded, floor the gas pedal and then crank it, keeping
the pedal floored. Do not pump or release the pedal while the engine
cranks. This will signal the ECU to cut the supply of fuel to the
injectors so the engine will start on what is already in the cylinders.
As soon as it fires you can release the pedal and it should run normally
within a few seconds.

 

[TM]

I bought my H6 Outback in June of '03. It is used almost exclusively by
my wife and it has performed flawlessly until now.

I'd check the oil to make sure that there is no gas in the oil.

I had a Ford Taurus that had an injector stick open flooding the cylinder
and getting gas in the oil. It then had a bearing go out due to lack of
proper lubrication.
At least that is the story the mechanic gave me.

 

[Chris Phillipo]

Sounds like there was water in the gas.

 

[Greg]

Horizontally opposed engine can be particularly prone to flooding and this
can easily happen on short runs when cold. Solution is to not run your car
for only a few seconds. If you must start it then drive it at least a couple
miles.

 

[Al]

Horizontally opposed engine can be particularly prone to flooding and this
can easily happen on short runs when cold. Solution is to not run your car
for only a few seconds. If you must start it then drive it at least a couple
miles.

That makes the car sorta useless.

Al

 

[Edward Hayes]

First time I have heard that any configuration except a radial aircraft
engine was more prone to flooding. Sounds like some mechanic wantabe trying
to pretend he knows something. . ed

 

[Al]

First time I have heard that any configuration except a radial aircraft
engine was more prone to flooding. Sounds like some mechanic wantabe trying
to pretend he knows something. . ed

The bottom cylinders on the radial may load up with oil. That's why you
walk the props through a few times by hand to clear them, magneto off,
of course. Otherwise a few rods and pistons cook off.

I had a '66 Corvair with the horizontal 6. When the valve stem seals
would deteriorate, oil would leak into the cylinders. Not much, but
enought to make a really impressive cloud of white smoke upon startup
and when you used the engine as a brake when going downhill. The fix was
to replace the rubber seals with Nitril seals.

Al

 

[Jim Stewart]

The bottom cylinders on the radial may load up with oil. That's why you
walk the props through a few times by hand to clear them, magneto off,
of course. Otherwise a few rods and pistons cook off.

I had a '66 Corvair with the horizontal 6. When the valve stem seals
would deteriorate, oil would leak into the cylinders. Not much, but
enought to make a really impressive cloud of white smoke upon startup
and when you used the engine as a brake when going downhill. The fix was
to replace the rubber seals with Nitril seals.

I have heard that BMW motorcycles with
boxer engines, when parked on the kick-
stand, would load the downhill cylinder
with oil *if* the piston rings on that
piston happened to have their gaps facing
the bottom of the engine.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Horizontally opposed engine can be particularly prone to flooding and this

Really?

Have had flat fours in the family since mid-'50's. A LOT of 'em. Never
experienced a predisposition to flooding any more than other
configurations, even with quick moves in and out of the garage, etc., as
OP reported.

Rick

 

[Rick Courtright]

I have heard that BMW motorcycles with
boxer engines, when parked on the kick-
stand, would load the downhill cylinder

Don't BMWs have center stands that keep the bike parked vertically?
Maybe I need to pay more attention, but I don't recall ever seeing one
parked with a sidestand. ???

Rick

 

[Jim Stewart]

Jim Stewart wrote:




Don't BMWs have center stands that keep the bike parked vertically?
Maybe I need to pay more attention, but I don't recall ever seeing one
parked with a sidestand. ???

I assumed they had both. The story is
anecdotal.

 

[l.lichtman]

There is a HUGE difference between flooding, which can cause hard
starting, and oil in the cylinders, which can produce excessive smoking
(or on radials, actual damage to the parts.)

 

[KLS]

Don't BMWs have center stands that keep the bike parked vertically?
Maybe I need to pay more attention, but I don't recall ever seeing one
parked with a sidestand. ???

They have both center and side stands. My 1983 R80RT did, and so does
the 2002 R1150R that I lust after. Some of the earlier Beemers (the
slash Fives) could be parked on their center stands and ridden right
off of them, very cool.

 

[Jim Stewart]

They have both center and side stands. My 1983 R80RT did, and so does
the 2002 R1150R that I lust after. Some of the earlier Beemers (the
slash Fives) could be parked on their center stands and ridden right
off of them, very cool.

So you ought to know, is the oil loading story true?

 

[Edward Hayes]

I agree with Rick as to the "prone to flooding" comment. I've owned 3X flat
4 VWs, 3X flat 4 Porsches, 1X flat 6 Porsche and 2X flat 4 Subaru's and
never a problem with flooding. As to radial engines I agree that manually
turning the prop was to displace oil leakage into the bottom cylinders but,
it also was done to introduce fresh air and dispel the gas that leaked from
the massive fuel lines into the cylinders. ed

 

[Orienteer]

I bought my H6 Outback in June of '03. It is used almost exclusively by
my wife and it has performed flawlessly until now.

Last Friday night my wife and I were getting ready to go out to dinner.
I went out and tried to start the car. all I got was a whinny. I tried
several times and it would not fire. No "Check Engine" light came on.
What to do? Well we got into my trusty 91 Jeep Laredo and went to
dinner.

The next morning I went out to see what was what. I first opened the
hood and checked for loose wires, low oil, and any other idiot things
that could have gone wrong. Nothing! All appeared normal.

I got into the car and tried to start it. I just got the whinny. The
engine would turn over, but it would not start and again no trouble
lights. I remembered that my 86 Jeep would behave this way when the
engine was flooded. But how does a non-carbuerated engine flood? So,
since the battery was good and it was relatively warm, about 50F, I
tried starting again. This time I kept cranking the engine. I then heard
a cough. I stopped and said "Aha!"

So I proceeded to crank the engine again. More coughs and still no
trouble lights. It finally was coughing about a coupla times a second,
and then it caught and slowly revved up. I kept the RPMs to about 1500
until the RPMs would just drop off gradually. It finally ran normally.
But, wow, the gasoline smell. The wind was blowing in just the right
direction and, of course, the smell went into my house though an open
vent window in the basement.

The car kept running so I took a chance and drove around the block. All
was normal! I shut the engine down and it restarted instantly and still
no trouble light. So I took the cell phone and took our refuse to the
recycling station. Normally I use the Jeep for that. I stopped and
started the car a few times while on my trip; no problem and still no
trouble lights.

So what could be responsible? The only thing I can put a finger on is
what had happened on Friday during the day. We were raking our leaves.
There were some leaves under the Outback so I started it and moved it
back about 10 feet. I removed the leaves and then started up the Outback
and moved it back into its original position. In each case, the engine
was not on for than a few seconds.

All I can think of is that the engine mixture is rich during original
startup. Perhaps two startups within a few minutes and with the engine
running just for a few seconds somehow screws up the computer or else
the engine is flooded. After all, it had all of the characteristics of a
flooded engine. Now this is bizarre. I would not expect that a modern
engine would behave this way.

When the 86 Jeep flooded, I would hold the choke plate open with a
clothespin while I cranked. This would clear out the flooded condition.
Once in a while a nice flame would shoot out of the carburetor. Cant do
this with the Outback. Only by cranking long enough for the gas to be
pumped out will it clear; at least that is my hypothesis.

The car has been behaving normally and no "Check Engine" light has come
on. Anybody have any ideas?

Al

Had this problem after short runs of cold engine on several flat 4 Subarus.
I think the excess fuel must stay in the cylinder rather than drain out as
it would tend to in a vertical engine. I always try to avoid these short
runs, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Cranking the engine with the throttle
kept wide open eventually starts the engine.

 

[KLS]

So you ought to know, is the oil loading story true?

I never experienced such a problem with my motorcycle, but then again,
I wasn't riding it for short distances, so it would start right up
again after being ridden hot.

 

[Rob Munach]

I never experienced such a problem with my motorcycle, but then again,
I wasn't riding it for short distances, so it would start right up
again after being ridden hot.

My R100GS will smoke after it is parked on its sidestand for weeks on
end. I typically keep it on the centerstand for extended parking.