spongy brakes

[Chicobiker]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms. Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid. Not so. In
fact, I really can't feel any difference. It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be. My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

 

[tabipapa]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms.  Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid.  Not so.  In
fact, I really can't feel any difference.  It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be.  My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

Bleed the brakes better?

 

[tabipapa]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms.  Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid.  Not so.  In
fact, I really can't feel any difference.  It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be.  My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

Bleed the brakes better?

 

[weelliott]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms.  Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid.  Not so.  In
fact, I really can't feel any difference.  It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be.  My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

I had owned my subie for about 6 years before I finally flushed the
fluid, and expected to get much better brake feel. I didn't. I
actually got a softer pedal just like you. I figured out why though.
At least in my case. I used a vacuum pump to bleed them. I am not sure
if the tubing I used was too large, or if I had loosened the
bleedscrews too much, but for some reason I was getting lots of air in
the tubing. I assumed it was a leaky seal at the tubing/bleeder
interface, which I wouldn't think woudl create any problem. I finished
upa nd tested thepedal and it was soft. I them theorized that perhaps
the air was coming in around the bleed screw and a little air remained
just behind the bleed screw. So I went with an old method I used to
use, and put a piece of tubing into a jar of brake fluid and stomped
on the brakes hard, and slowly let them up. This forced the air
bubbles out, and since the pedal was returnig slowly, it wasn't
pulling fluid in that quickly, and thus didn't have the vacuum present
to cause air to come in around that seal of the tubing on the
bleedscrew. It worked.

If you have time, gravity draining works in these cars too. Just get
four lengths of tubing and four receptacles. Put the car on jackstands
and attach the tubing, loosen the screws, and every few minutes top
off the fluid at the master cylinder. Don't let it run dry.

Good luck

 

[Guest]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms.  Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid.  Not so.  In
fact, I really can't feel any difference.  It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be.  My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

If it has rear drum brakes, the rear brakes could be in need of
adjustment, indicating the self-adjusters have seized, you never back
up, or they are worn out.

Does pumping the pedal help?

Does the pedal slowly sink if you keep constant firm pressure on it?

If the pedal is low but not spongy, that could be the pedal being out
of adjustment- some of these come with an adjustable rod goung to the
brake pedal.


Dave

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms. Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid. Not so. In
fact, I really can't feel any difference. It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be. My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

It seems unlikely an 03 would have a problem with the rubber lines, but
new (or even better stainless steel braided) brake lines can help with
sponginess/and/or restore a 'like new' brake feel.


Best to make certain there is no air in the lines. With ABS equipment,
it can be trickier to bleed the system I think.

good luck

Carl

 

[Chico]

Update:

I'm starting to think my wife was complaining about the ABS kicking
in. Tonight was rainy, and the ABS was kicking in just about
everytime I hit the brakes. Annoying. I remember feeling annoyed
about the ABS when the car was new. Perhaps the new fluid is less
spongy, and the drivers are simply not used to the new fluid. It is
pretty bad tho, almost dangerous. I'll test it out again when it's
not so wet.

Other option: Master Cylinder. I found this article somewhere (lost
it now) that explained a possible cause when a brake fluid change is
followed by low pedal after a few days. Goes like this: Old fluid has
moisture in it. Eventually the seals absorb moisture too. If
everything happens gradually, nothing dramatic happens. After a long
time, new fluid goes in. Fairly quickly, the "moist" seals "donate"
moisture to the new fluid. Seal shape changes, and does not provide a
good seal anymore. No leaking, (since the "leak" happens inside the
cylinder) but poor performance.

The brakes felt weak and squishy one day, but they seem OK now. I
don't know if the seals just had to settle down or something. But the
ABS thing was really annoying tonight, and it may explain my wife's
experience.

So I'll give it a few more days before going back to the shop.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Update:

I'm starting to think my wife was complaining about the ABS kicking
in. Tonight was rainy, and the ABS was kicking in just about
everytime I hit the brakes. Annoying. I remember feeling annoyed
about the ABS when the car was new. Perhaps the new fluid is less
spongy, and the drivers are simply not used to the new fluid. It is
pretty bad tho, almost dangerous. I'll test it out again when it's
not so wet.

Other option: Master Cylinder. I found this article somewhere (lost
it now) that explained a possible cause when a brake fluid change is
followed by low pedal after a few days. Goes like this: Old fluid has
moisture in it. Eventually the seals absorb moisture too. If
everything happens gradually, nothing dramatic happens. After a long
time, new fluid goes in. Fairly quickly, the "moist" seals "donate"
moisture to the new fluid. Seal shape changes, and does not provide a
good seal anymore. No leaking, (since the "leak" happens inside the
cylinder) but poor performance.

The brakes felt weak and squishy one day, but they seem OK now. I
don't know if the seals just had to settle down or something. But the
ABS thing was really annoying tonight, and it may explain my wife's
experience.

So I'll give it a few more days before going back to the shop.

Hmmm...now that I think about it...didn't some soobs get an ABS system
'reflash' or recall? wait...

well, they don't mention the OBS but i found this at cars101.com;

******Satisfaction program 06-35-05R. this is not a recall.
A response to concerns about ABS performance on 2002-03 WRX 5spd of a
feeling of a delayed response when ABS is activated during inital
braking over bumps, potholes or other low friction road surfaces. With
assistance from Subaru, NHTSA conducted over 11,500 tests to investigate
this report and while NHTSA and Subaru did not indentify a problem that
would require a recall, they did identify a certain ABS performance
characteristic that might cause some driver's to identify a delayed
response feel during the first second of braking. Following this
analysis, Subaru developed an alternative method of calibrating the ABS
to address this performance characteristic.No perceptible improvement in
overall stopping difference will result. If the driver of an affected
vehicle encounters this set of conditions and is uncomfortable, a
complimentary ABS with different calibration is available.
This is not mandatory, rather this service is being offered to enhance
customer satisfation. Only some owners will experience this ABS
characteristic and SoA will contact owners of eligible vehicles by mail
through October 2005.******

Carl

 

[Guest]

Update:

I'm starting to think my wife was complaining about the ABS kicking
in.  Tonight was rainy, and the ABS was kicking in just about
everytime I hit the brakes.  Annoying.  I remember feeling annoyed
about the ABS when the car was new.  Perhaps the new fluid is less
spongy, and the drivers are simply not used to the new fluid.  It is
pretty bad tho, almost dangerous.  I'll test it out again when it's
not so wet.

Other option:  Master Cylinder.  I found this article somewhere (lost
it now) that explained a possible cause when a brake fluid change is
followed by low pedal after a few days.  Goes like this: Old fluid has
moisture in it.  Eventually the seals absorb moisture too.  If
everything happens gradually, nothing dramatic happens.  After a long
time, new fluid goes in.  Fairly quickly, the "moist" seals "donate"
moisture to the new fluid.  Seal shape changes, and does not provide a
good seal anymore.  No leaking, (since the "leak" happens inside the
cylinder) but poor performance.

The brakes felt weak and squishy one day, but they seem OK now.  I
don't know if the seals just had to settle down or something.  But the
ABS thing was really annoying tonight, and it may explain my wife's
experience.

So I'll give it a few more days before going back to the shop.

Still have the stock potenzas on there?

Dave

 

[Chico]

Still have the stock potenzas on there?

At 190,000kms, THAT would be impressive!

Crappy winters are still on the car. Not enough thread for another
winter so I've not been motivated to swap them yet.

 

[Chico]

******Satisfaction program 06-35-05R. this is not a recall.
A response to concerns about ABS performance on 2002-03 WRX 5spd of a
feeling of a delayed response when ABS is activated during inital
braking over bumps, potholes or other low friction road surfaces. With

Hmmm, very interesting. The term "delayed response" has me nodding my
head. When the ABS decides to kick in, the first thing that happens
is that the brake system pressure seems to drop like a rock. Pedal
heads towards the floor, and car stops slowing down, almost to the
point where it feels like i.t is actually speeding up. After a brief
moment (which could be the "delayed response,") the car starts to slow
down in an ABS-controlled manner. Somebody who didn't care much to
understand how stuff works would probably describe it as "delayed
response."

Mine is not a WRX, but rather an OBS. Same system? I wonder if I can
try this "alternate calibration." I'll mention it to the dealer see
if they have any clue. I've always felt the ABS kicked in
unreasonably early. Are newer systems better?

 

[weelliott]

Hmmm, very interesting.  The term "delayed response" has me nodding my
head.  When the ABS decides to kick in, the first thing that happens
is that the brake system pressure seems to drop like a rock.  Pedal
heads towards the floor, and car stops slowing down, almost to the
point where it feels like i.t is actually speeding up.  After a brief
moment (which could be the "delayed response,") the car starts to slow
down in an ABS-controlled manner.  Somebody who didn't care much to
understand how stuff works would probably describe it as "delayed
response."

Mine is not a WRX, but rather an OBS.  Same system?  I wonder if I can
try this "alternate calibration."  I'll mention it to the dealer see
if they have any clue.  I've always felt the ABS kicked in
unreasonably early.  Are newer systems better?

This is a long shot, but my ABS kept kicking in when I turned in one
direction with the brakes on. I forget which direction, but it doesn't
matter. The problem turned out to be a bad wheel bearing on the
outside rear wheel. The load on that wheel combined with the bad wheel
bearing would cause the wheel to kind of steer, which let the speed
ring get far enough away from the ABS wheel speed sensor, and that
wheel got cut brake pressure. Is it possible that you have something
affecting the sensors? Long shot, but just tossing stuff out there to
mull over.

 

[Todd H.]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms. Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid. Not so. In
fact, I really can't feel any difference. It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be. My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

Mine feel like crap too. The pads rotors are aftermarket but
apparently high end.

Are yours aftermarket too?

Same deal--it feels so lousy I want to think there's a bubble in the
brake line but themechanic swears up and down it's been bled, burped,
and all that and the pads are just squishy.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Mine feel like crap too. The pads rotors are aftermarket but
apparently high end.

Are yours aftermarket too?

Same deal--it feels so lousy I want to think there's a bubble in the
brake line but themechanic swears up and down it's been bled, burped,
and all that and the pads are just squishy.

The aftermarket pads (wagner) I put on my wife's Outback are noticeably
inferior to the original pads. I'm going back to OEM on her car - and
will soon need pads on my car - I'm 'probably' going with OEM. I MIGHT
consider EBC yellow.

Carl

 

[Chico]

Mine feel like crap too.   The pads rotors are aftermarket but
apparently high end.

Are yours aftermarket too?

Same deal--it feels so lousy I want to think there's a bubble in the
brake line but themechanic swears up and down it's been bled, burped,
and all that and the pads are just squishy.

Yes, I did replace everything about a year ago. I hadn't thought of
that fact. I always read so much about sticking with stock pads, but
I wasn't that close to a dealer at the time. In the end, I had to run
to the dealer at the last minute cause I broke a caliper bolt and
could not find the right bolt anywhere locally. I hope I never have
to replace the rotors and drums again because the new ones I got don't
have the bolt holes to push out against the flange and un-seize
them ...

 

[Guest]

Hello.

I have an 03 OBS, 190000kms.  Brakes were starting to feel a little
spongy, and the fluid hadn't been replaced in a while so dealer
inspected the brakes and replaced the fluid.

I expected new fluid to make things feel much more solid.  Not so.  In
fact, I really can't feel any difference.  It even seems like the
brake travel is more than it should be.  My wife is even starting to
complain about them (she drives it more than me.)

Any thoughts?

I just ran across something that might be contributing to this.

Some replacement pads have the metal backing made too large, and the
pad hangs up in the slots the pad slides in.

If you have just one hung pad that bending or bowing even a tiny
amount when the brakes are applied, that would give you spongy brakes.

I just did rear pads and rotors, and had to be pretty forceful to get
the rear pads out, and I could have hammered the new ones in but
instead elected to trim the backing plates with the grinder- just
enough, and in just the right places.


Dave

 

[weelliott]

I just did rear pads and rotors, and had to be pretty forceful to get
the rear pads out, and I could have hammered the new ones in but
instead elected to trim the backing plates with the grinder- just
enough, and in just the right places.

Dave

I hammered pads in once on a volvo wagon. Big Mistake. They bound up
in the housing, and once I applied my brakes, they got stuck there.
Then they were stuck in the applied position. It was apparenlty not
enough to apply a significant braking force because I didn't notice
it. However, the pad heated up enough that I had smoke pouring off
that corner of my car. I noticed that and went to slow down to pull
over and my brake pedal hit the floor. Apparently I had boiled the
fluid. I got the car stopped and let it cool off, then I had brakes.
That was quite scary though.

This is at least my mechanic's idea of what happened. He also added on
that I should have used OEM pads. Since then I have always run the
ends of pads over a rough asphalt surface to grind off a little before
putting them in. That's how I get around his recommendation. It's
usually just a thick layer of paint that comes off, but I have never
had the problem again.

Bill