R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

  • Thread starter Frater Oconulux 11°
  • Start date
n5hsr said:
You must be one of the union leaders, because time and again here in
Illinois, the unions demonstrate they are only in it for the top brass, to
hell with the workers.

Case in point: A manufacturing company has a factory in Chicago. Business
is good, so it asked the union if it could expand. The union refused. So
it is now in the process of building a bigger, non-union shop in a different
town. It will eventually close the union shop.

Please post the particulars. I've never heard of a company having to ask the
union for *permission* to expand. There are many contracts that cover
downsizing and closings, but not expansion. A union that opposed an
expansion would be stabbing itself in the back as an expansion means more
members.
Another factory in another town voted to take a pay cut to keep a plant open
but the union bigwigs overturned the vote and forced the plant closed.

Again, post particulars, please. In the UAW, at least, a vote by the
membership can't be "overturned" by the "bigwigs", whoever they may be.
My grandfather belonged to a union. In those days the union was really for
the little guy. Now they only want to make their members vote DemonCratic
and collect their dues for their PAC. I belonged to a union once. Never
again, Lord willing. Unions might as well be called Soviets anymore.

Charles of Schaumburg.

An obvious union hater...wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the ass.

Dave
 
Mike said:
Why is it OK for consumers to take advantage of low wage countries but not
for the manufactures to do the same? If Americans keep buying from other
counties the only thing their kids will need to know is how to say "Do you
want fries with that? or Welcome to WalMart" Better wise up they are YOUR
jobs that are being lost ;)


mike hunt

"If goods do not cross borders, armies soon will."
Lord Acton

Carl
1 Lucky Texan
 
R Sweeney said:
because car manufacturers have internal insular cultures whose members all
live in the suburbs of Detroit Michigan, which is itself not exactly a
mirror of America

an island of islands

Take the hybrid for instance.
In Detroit, they did the math.

The truth: hybrids cost more money to make than they will EVER save in the
miserable improvement in gas mileage they bring over a similar all gas
model.

So, in Detroit, hybrids made no sense.

But in the California design centers of the Japanese makers, American
designers and engineers realized that it isn't facts, it's emotion that
drive auto purchases.

People WANT to believe they are "doing right" and green is the new
religion.

As a religion, it's based on faith.

So hybrids are incredibly desirable to the green faithful... even though
its all a sham.

They got it, Detroit missed it.

I don't know why exactly but I understand your argument better than Mike
Hunt's.
When I set out to buy a new car we wanted to see what was out there for no
more than $25,000 (taxes, title, you name it, included) and it would have to
jump start my heart and make me want to drive again. I didn't want a silly
ass sports car and I didn't want a silly ass little car designed like a pair
of zig zag stripe sneakers from China. In 2001 I saw a Prius up close and
thought it was ugly. When I found out it ran more on gas than electricity I
said no way am I going to buy this. It didn't even have cruise control.
Anyway, 2003 comes along and I'm bored silly with every car I looked at.
Honestly, I wouldn't touch a Toyota or a Honda if my life depended on it,
which explains my detest of "comparable cars" . It's only factual if anyone
of those cars is desirable. To me they are not.
Anyway, It's 2003, I still have $25,000 cash so we bought the Prius and
figured it's the least ugly of the bunch.
Purchasing a car is purely subjective as you point out and if you think a
hybrid is a sham that's fine with me. I'm very happy getting the EPA mileage
estimate, as a matter of fact it's the only car I've ever owned that has.
And as far as batteries are concerned if the scare was true it doesn't
matter to me. $2000 is a drop in the bucket. My wide screen TV cost 3 times
that and that's more likely to break. Old folks drop $2000 at Foxwoods like
it was water.
My Chevy astro van (Roman Wheels) used 3286 gallons of gasoline during it's
69,000 miles, and my Prius used 1353 gallons during it's 69000 miles, for a
difference of 1933 gallons X $2.00 a gallon = $3866 . This is the ONLY
comparison worth anything to me. What I had before and what I have now. I
believe many Prius owners feel the same way.
Do me a favor and don't belittle my effort in replying to you with a stupid
one liner. I'm hoping you're above that.
mark_
 
I'm thinking a surge in these problems started when our gov't allowed
outsourcing to other countries without the tax issues
 
M.R.S. said:
I'd love to buy an American car if:

it was fuel efficient... the Chevy Aveo isn't nearly as good as the Toyota
Yaris, and.. it feels/looks cheap

also, price.

The Chevy Cobalt SE in comparison to the Toyota Matrix XR is NOT cheap
(Canadian funds) So, well, hmmm...

The only American car I think I'd get (first I have to try it) is the
Dodge Caliber.

Might be neat.

Cheers

You will disappointed I'm sure...
 
Had it been proposed here in the U.S. it would never have been
constructed.

Well, it shouldn't have been constructed in China. What is needed are
trade rules that require minimum standards for the protection of the
environment and employees. As for building it here; do we have a
shortage of electricity? I remember that was the claim during the
California crises. Then it turned out that it was just Enron
manipulating the energy market. Put those bums in jail and there
hasn't been a shortage since.
Maybe this is the defining moment between China and the
U.S. We have deconstructed the U.S. with rules and bans.

California didn't run out of electricity until they deregulated the
market.
Having said
that, I'm all in favor of protecting the environment, but there is a
fine line which must be drawn and politics must not be a factor.

Agree on that.
 
Pablo said:
"its
the union thats totally wiping out their profits. unions nowadays do
more
harm than good."

HMMM...Lucky for the greedy corporate types that those Chinese workers
LOVE to work 16 hours a day, in hazardous and dangerous conditions,
fueled by power that spews huge amounts of pollution (There is just so
much hydro) And they LOVE to live in conditions sub par to western
counterparts, FOR JUST PENNIES A DAY!!!

Us DIRTY ROTTEN union members who take a small percentage of the
corporate profit (who the **** was ACTUALLY making the product/profit
anyway??) and by supporting our families and living our lives, ALL THE
FUCKING MONEY GETS PASSED ON, to the rest of the economy. Ever hear how
every dollar earned helps support 10 to 20 other businesses??

If corporations had their way us DIRTY ROTTEN union members would be
working for Chinese wages and only the guys at the top would be getting
the REAL money.

OH, by the way...If you are NOT union and you are NOT the owner of the
company, you can thank your local union members for dragging UP the
wages in your chosen profession, because if they did not pay your sorry
SCAB ass the union scale, YOU would be working for wages like our
Chinese counterparts, PENNIES INSTEAD OF DOLLARS...

NO ONE BUT OWNERS OF A COMPANY HAS ANY RIGHT TO BITCH ABOUT A UNION.

Friggn' scabs need to be boiled in oil...

At this point in history, unions are now dragging down more
companies than they are helping. At this point, unions have made
many US companies uncompetitive in the world market. That affects
the world economy, the US economy and MY economy. Your ludicrous
statement that no one but owners has the right to bitch about a
union aside, I DO have the right.
 
mark_digital said:
I don't know why exactly but I understand your argument better than Mike
Hunt's.
When I set out to buy a new car we wanted to see what was out there for no
more than $25,000 (taxes, title, you name it, included) and it would have
to jump start my heart and make me want to drive again. I didn't want a
silly ass sports car and I didn't want a silly ass little car designed
like a pair of zig zag stripe sneakers from China. In 2001 I saw a Prius
up close and thought it was ugly. When I found out it ran more on gas than
electricity I said no way am I going to buy this. It didn't even have
cruise control. Anyway, 2003 comes along and I'm bored silly with every
car I looked at. Honestly, I wouldn't touch a Toyota or a Honda if my life
depended on it, which explains my detest of "comparable cars" . It's only
factual if anyone of those cars is desirable. To me they are not.
Anyway, It's 2003, I still have $25,000 cash so we bought the Prius and
figured it's the least ugly of the bunch.
Purchasing a car is purely subjective as you point out and if you think a
hybrid is a sham that's fine with me. I'm very happy getting the EPA
mileage estimate, as a matter of fact it's the only car I've ever owned
that has. And as far as batteries are concerned if the scare was true it
doesn't matter to me. $2000 is a drop in the bucket. My wide screen TV
cost 3 times that and that's more likely to break. Old folks drop $2000 at
Foxwoods like it was water.
My Chevy astro van (Roman Wheels) used 3286 gallons of gasoline during
it's 69,000 miles, and my Prius used 1353 gallons during it's 69000 miles,
for a difference of 1933 gallons X $2.00 a gallon = $3866 . This is the
ONLY comparison worth anything to me. What I had before and what I have
now. I believe many Prius owners feel the same way.
Do me a favor and don't belittle my effort in replying to you with a
stupid one liner. I'm hoping you're above that.
mark_

Comparing a Prius to a Chevy Astro is not the appropriate comparison.

Compare it to the closest size gas Toyota in size.... the Corolla - which
gets 14 mpg less but costs $7500 less.

So in your first 100K and 10 years (assuming that battery is still good),
you will have saved a whopping $1550 in gas (over 10 years) in your green
mobile.

And that $1550 in gas cost you $7500 extra UP FRONT with a $2000 battery
waiting for you.

You didn't even save the cost of the replacement battery.

This is what I mean by sham, but hey, what a feeling!
 
Lee Florack said:
100 agree. Labor and management should be a partnership -- not an
adversarial confrontation. Labor unions are not only no longer needed,
they are dangerous. GM & Ford are prime examples.

The big difference is most big companies don't give a shit about their
employes (Walmart being one of them)

That's why unions are needed.
 
Gordon McGrew said:
Well, it shouldn't have been constructed in China. What is needed are
trade rules that require minimum standards for the protection of the
environment and employees. As for building it here; do we have a
shortage of electricity? I remember that was the claim during the
California crises. Then it turned out that it was just Enron
manipulating the energy market. Put those bums in jail and there
hasn't been a shortage since.


California didn't run out of electricity until they deregulated the
market.

NYC ran out of electricity one day in August 2002 (or maybe 2003).

It is not just a matter of markets. It is also imrpoving the infrastruture.

Jeff
 
Lee said:
At this point in history, unions are now dragging down more
companies than they are helping. At this point, unions have made
many US companies uncompetitive in the world market. That affects
the world economy, the US economy and MY economy.

Your statements are not supported by facts nor by history. They are
the propaganda promoted by those who really are the problem.

When top management blames all others, then top management is the
reason for failure. I have worked in GM. When management could not
understand a problem, suggest a solution, OR make a decision, instead,
a union guy would say screw them and help me solve the problem right
then and there. Too many GM managers are business school and law
school graduates. Therefore innovation is measured in terms of costs.
Innovation is routinely stifled.

A typical example that every product oriented person in the industry
has long understood. A problem literally created by management who
does not come from where the work gets done. How many horsepower
does every liter of engine produce? The technology was developed and
ready for production in GM in 1975. After 1990, even foreign
competition was selling 70 Hp per liter engines. GM does not sell such
engines standard in all cars. GM does not put both horsepower and
liters on their window stickers - so that you will remain ignorant. A
GM car therefore must have two extra pistons - and all that extra
hardware - to do what oversea competition does. Therefore GM products
cost more to build. This directly traceable to top GM management -
many don't even drive. GM products cost more to build because world
standard technology - pioneered in GM 30+ years ago - still is not
standard in all GM products.

So who does GM blame for these higher costs? Unions? Government?
Tax structure? American education? These higher GM costs are due to
stifled technology in GM products. 70 Horsepower per liter being one
in hundreds of examples why GM products cost more to build than even
Mercedes Benz (comparatively equipped).

When an American company was in trouble - steel, autos, AT&T, IBM,
Xerox, Apple Computer, etc - in every case top management were business
school and law school graduates who could not see innovation if it was
pushed up their nose. In every case, such management used bean counter
reasoning to blame others. What is called innovation to a product guy
is called increased costs to a bean counter. There is no entry for
innovation on a spread sheet.

GM could have replaced Jack Smith with a 'car guy' - an
expression that should mean something to every person with an opinion.
Instead GM promoted a bean counter: whose entire history was devoid of
product development and without 'dirt under his fingernails'. Rick
Wagoner was not even running North American operations profitably when
he was selected to lead GM. Now every GM operation is losing money -
because the top man does not come from where the work gets done.
Because the top man still does not even understand why every GM car
must - as was necessary even 15 years ago - must have a world standard
70 Hp per liter engine. This is too product orient for a bean counter
who views innovation as increased costs. The 70 HP/l engine being a
classic symptom of a company whose products are so bad that Ward
Automotive once noted GM could not even give away their six cylinder
engine to Toyota - for free. Toyota would never have an engine that
poor inside their products.

30 years ago, every manufacturer was eliminating push rod engines.
Overhead cams were essential to lowering costs. Today, Toyota cars
have no pushrod engines. But this year, GM will release two new engine
designs - both using push rods. Business school graduates judge
innovation in terms of costs. Therefore GM continues to use obsolete
technology designs - which is why GM cars cost more to build and
require more man-hours to assemble. This directly traceable to top
management that does not come from where the work gets done; then
blames workers.

What will save GM is what saved Chrysler and Ford. Threat of
bankruptcy is required to remove the only problem - top management.
Patriots believe in the free market - and not a lie called "Buy
American". 'Buy American' only protects top managers who then
take big bonuses and golden parachutes while downsizing - destroying
American jobs. How do you save those union jobs? The proof was in
1979 Chrysler and 1981 Ford. Buy the best. Those who bought Honda
and VW saved Chrysler and Ford. Buy using free market principles to
remove Rick Wagoner and his large staff of overpaid law and business
school 'car designers' (and yes, GM design teams answer to
accountants rather than accountants working for car guys). American
jobs will continue to disappear as long as those bean counters use
business school principles to design cars. As long at they preach
lies about 'smoke stack industries', then Americans must continue
to downsize.

Who is GM's top designer? A graphics artist? How then does GM get
70 Hp per liter engines in all products? They don't. Instead
promote 'Buy American'. Instead blame the unions for cars that must
have two extra cylinders just to be equivalent. To bean counters, a 70
Hp per liter engine means increased cost. People who have even
stifled the 70 Hp/liter engine for 30 years - long after that
technology was standard even in competition products - then invent
myths such as pension costs. How to make a 1990 spread sheet look
profitable? Underfund the pension fund while those retirees were still
working. Now GM will drop that $multi-billion pension fund shortfall
on the US public - PBGC - while paying top management more bonuses.
 
w_tom said:
Your statements are not supported by facts nor by history. They are
the propaganda promoted by those who really are the problem.

When top management blames all others, then top management is the
reason for failure. I have worked in GM. When management could not
understand a problem, suggest a solution, OR make a decision, instead,
a union guy would say screw them and help me solve the problem right
then and there. Too many GM managers are business school and law
school graduates. Therefore innovation is measured in terms of costs.
Innovation is routinely stifled.

A typical example that every product oriented person in the industry
has long understood. A problem literally created by management who
does not come from where the work gets done. How many horsepower
does every liter of engine produce? The technology was developed and
ready for production in GM in 1975. After 1990, even foreign
competition was selling 70 Hp per liter engines. GM does not sell such
engines standard in all cars. GM does not put both horsepower and
liters on their window stickers - so that you will remain ignorant. A
GM car therefore must have two extra pistons - and all that extra
hardware - to do what oversea competition does. Therefore GM products
cost more to build. This directly traceable to top GM management -
many don't even drive. GM products cost more to build because world
standard technology - pioneered in GM 30+ years ago - still is not
standard in all GM products.

So who does GM blame for these higher costs? Unions? Government?
Tax structure? American education? These higher GM costs are due to
stifled technology in GM products. 70 Horsepower per liter being one
in hundreds of examples why GM products cost more to build than even
Mercedes Benz (comparatively equipped).

When an American company was in trouble - steel, autos, AT&T, IBM,
Xerox, Apple Computer, etc - in every case top management were business
school and law school graduates who could not see innovation if it was
pushed up their nose. In every case, such management used bean counter
reasoning to blame others. What is called innovation to a product guy
is called increased costs to a bean counter. There is no entry for
innovation on a spread sheet.

GM could have replaced Jack Smith with a 'car guy' - an
expression that should mean something to every person with an opinion.
Instead GM promoted a bean counter: whose entire history was devoid of
product development and without 'dirt under his fingernails'. Rick
Wagoner was not even running North American operations profitably when
he was selected to lead GM. Now every GM operation is losing money -
because the top man does not come from where the work gets done.
Because the top man still does not even understand why every GM car
must - as was necessary even 15 years ago - must have a world standard
70 Hp per liter engine. This is too product orient for a bean counter
who views innovation as increased costs. The 70 HP/l engine being a
classic symptom of a company whose products are so bad that Ward
Automotive once noted GM could not even give away their six cylinder
engine to Toyota - for free. Toyota would never have an engine that
poor inside their products.

30 years ago, every manufacturer was eliminating push rod engines.
Overhead cams were essential to lowering costs. Today, Toyota cars
have no pushrod engines. But this year, GM will release two new engine
designs - both using push rods. Business school graduates judge
innovation in terms of costs. Therefore GM continues to use obsolete
technology designs - which is why GM cars cost more to build and
require more man-hours to assemble. This directly traceable to top
management that does not come from where the work gets done; then
blames workers.

Actually your now showing that you don't know very much about engines. OHC
is a lot more complicated than even engines with two extra cylinders and
costs more rather than saving any. GM's "obsolete" pushrod engines have
been refined for many years are are able to push a car to the same mpg as
an overly complex OHC engine without requiring any maintenance at 60k mile
intervals. Sure the OHC engine can boast more HP per liter but when that
HP only comes near peak rpm and at a sacrifice of torque its not worth it.
To actually get to use all that high HP you have to run the engine where
its least efficient so you get a tradeoff of either driving extremely slow
to get the advertised mpg or getting low mpg and getting that advertised
HP. Pushrod engines have peak torque at a low rpm where normal everyday
driving occurs so you get good power while still getting good mpg. The
general car buying public doesn't understand this so they hear the bigger
HP numbers and think those are the better engines. Instead of refining the
simpler technology its quicker to take a shortcut and stick in an OHC amnd
advertise the numbers.
 
El said:
The big difference is most big companies don't give a shit about their
employes (Walmart being one of them)

That's why unions are needed.

I've worked for the same non-union company for just short of 39
years. They treat me just fine thanks you.
 
Lee Florack said:
I've worked for the same non-union company for just short of 39
years. They treat me just fine thanks you.

If it weren't for the standards set by union companies, your experience
might be much different.

Dave
 
Jeff said:
No, it wouldn't be. Do you think that the rich people will let their
billions of dollars of equity go down the toilet? I don't think so.

Ask some of the old time union people about Warehouse 3 in Searcy, Arkansas.
Really? Evidence please. Can you support a family on what they pay (don't
forget to adjust the annual wages based on the hours people actually work
at Walmart).

I lived on what I made at Wally-world until 1992.
Teachers are only asking for fair pay and working conditions.


Where in the act is there a requirement for merit pay?

So the problems in Illinois are fault of the unions? The administration
and parents have no fault to bear?

Jeff
Well there are two things wrong:

One, You live in the wrong color state, and two you believe all the union
propaganda. It just ain't so here in the hinterlands.
 
Jeff said:
Try first year teacher and bottom-rung union member.


I doubt they will close the schools in NYC.
They should. With what they've been doing to public schools since 1992,
it's a crying shame.
I vote Democratic. And I have proudly done so long before I joined a
union.

Jeff, Proud to be union and liberal

Then you need to call your bank. Your reality check just bounced.
Charles of Schaumburg
 
John said:
mark_digital wrote:
Not really. General Electric, for example, is a very well managed
company which continues to thrive while at the same time being well
regarded by the investment community.

For years GM has been paying a big dividend despite losses, and those
dividends should have instead been reinvested.

GE has much better management than GM, and the only thing they fail at
consistently is cutting edge innovation on a small scale - witness
their failure to ever be a leader in the semiconductor business, unless
you count MOV surge supressors.
 
Lee said:
At this point in history, unions are now dragging down more
companies than they are helping.

Replace "unions" with "business schools," and your statement will be
much more accurate. There is not a single case where a corporation
needs an MBA rather than a person educated in the nature of its
business. Lee Raymond and Jack Welch aren't MBAs, and biomedical and
semiconductor firms are also headed primarily by scientists and
engineers.
 
Michael said:
They can never stop stealing musical techniques from white
people, such as Duke Ellington who stole ALL of his shit from French
impressionist composers, or rap artists who could do NOTHING without
synthesizers and techniques devised by white composers in the 40s ad
50s. yet they will never acknowledge their plagiarism.

Why won't those Negros give Lawrence Welk the credit he deserves?
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
14,010
Messages
67,689
Members
7,501
Latest member
Lynne

Latest Threads

Back
Top