Hesitation & surging in 2006 Forrester

[ssslither9]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

I took it back to the dealership and was able to immediately
demonstrate the problem to the technician. He said it was most likely
a load-balancing problem, and that the fix was probably a computer
download similar to one he knew about in the 2005 Outback. He said he
would contact Subaru America (or whatever the corporate parent is
called) to confirm that and would get back to me that day. I asked him
if he thought the car was safe to drive (I live in the foothills of the
rockies so I'm going downhill a LOT). He said yes. I drove the car
off the lot, reassured.

Later that day, the head of the service dept. (not the technician)
called me and said that Subaru America had indicated they did NOT have
a fix for this problem. In fact, they had never heard of the problem
in 2006 Forresters. They were going to send their technicians to the
dealership to hook up the car to their diagnostic computers, as the
first step of figuring out the problem. However, they wanted the
dealership to be sure and tell me that more than likely, they would NOT
have an immediate fix for the problem. They suspected the problem was
due to the engine/transmission being NEW, and that it would most likely
right itself over time. The dealership said that Subaru America would
probably like to follow my car "over time" to see how/if the problem
resolved.

I told them this was unacceptable; if they wanted to take this car back
to "follow the problem", that's fine, I would be happy to take another
2006 Forrester that did not demonstrate the problem.

You can imagine where that statement got me - nowhere! I have a case
opened with the dealership (a technical case) and a case opened with
Subaru America (a customer service case). I have an appt. to bring the
car into the dealership at the end of this month, for the "hook up"
with the Subaru technicians. I am reading up on lemon laws in my state
(colorado).

Any advice?

thanks in advance!

 

[Mortimer Schnurd]

It's "new" and the problem will work itself out...yeah...thats Subaru
thinking.......

 

[Edward Hayes]

I presume that when you say bucking & surging you mean when you do not
apply ANY throttle? If that is the case then maybe something is
slightly holding the throttle up from full off. Is the floor mat
causing this as it did in my 2000 Forester? When the throttle is full
off then all fuel to the injectors should be zero and no surging. Let
us know what you find. Ed

 

[Ratatooie]

I had that on my '01. Never took it in for that particular problem but:

- had a bad O2 sensor shortly after
- had tranny fluid flush/fill that wasn't filled enough

Once both items were fixed, the problem went away and never came back. I
THINK it was the O2 sensor not knowing how to idle right and then confusing
the tranny. But there was a computer reprogram (not what they called it,
but that's what it is) done as part of a recall item. So your mechanic may
be right.

But I did mess around in detail with the tranny fluid level (all sorts of
angles and temps) and came to the conclusion there are LOTS of knooks and
crannies in there and that the guy filling the thing at the dealer could
very well underfill it while at the same time following the instructions to
the letter. It took about 3/4 quart before it started acting right again.
(Did an ounce or two at a time to not overfill.)

You wouldn't expect the 02 sensor to go, but mine is an '01 and this all
happened at the end of '03.

Just about the only thing you can do your self, see if the ECU is throwing
any codes, and check the fluid level repeatedly (follow instructions in the
manual). You might find one day its normal, but the next day it's low off
the scale... if it is.. you might just need fluid. Mine jumped around from
"overfull" to "none left" and back... once the fluid was topped off enough
though, it stablized and stayed steady at "full")

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

I took it back to the dealership and was able to immediately
demonstrate the problem to the technician. He said it was most likely
a load-balancing problem, and that the fix was probably a computer
download similar to one he knew about in the 2005 Outback. He said he
would contact Subaru America (or whatever the corporate parent is
called) to confirm that and would get back to me that day. I asked him
if he thought the car was safe to drive (I live in the foothills of the
rockies so I'm going downhill a LOT). He said yes. I drove the car
off the lot, reassured.

Later that day, the head of the service dept. (not the technician)
called me and said that Subaru America had indicated they did NOT have
a fix for this problem. In fact, they had never heard of the problem
in 2006 Forresters. They were going to send their technicians to the
dealership to hook up the car to their diagnostic computers, as the
first step of figuring out the problem. However, they wanted the
dealership to be sure and tell me that more than likely, they would NOT
have an immediate fix for the problem. They suspected the problem was
due to the engine/transmission being NEW, and that it would most likely
right itself over time. The dealership said that Subaru America would
probably like to follow my car "over time" to see how/if the problem
resolved.

I told them this was unacceptable; if they wanted to take this car back
to "follow the problem", that's fine, I would be happy to take another
2006 Forrester that did not demonstrate the problem.

You can imagine where that statement got me - nowhere! I have a case
opened with the dealership (a technical case) and a case opened with
Subaru America (a customer service case). I have an appt. to bring the
car into the dealership at the end of this month, for the "hook up"
with the Subaru technicians. I am reading up on lemon laws in my state
(colorado).

Any advice?

thanks in advance!

Will it exhibit the problem for another driver?

Have you tried another Forester?

I would tell them it is a warranty issue and they should get you another
car to drive while they are investigating it. If it cannot be resolved
in 3 weeks or so, they should replace you're car.

be firm. Ask everyone you encounter how THEY would feel if it was
happening to them.

good luck

Carl

 

[ssslither9]

Hi Carl, yes, another driver has reproduced the problem, EASILY. Even
passengers can feel tihs problem when it's happening.

The dealership is planning to give me a car when they have mine for the
next appointment.

The car is certainly under warranty. What qualifies as a malfunction
under which the warranty can be used as the legal basis to force them
to give me another car? Doesn't that vary from state to state, under
the lemon laws? As best I can tell, I have to give them a chance to
fix it, then I have to give Subaru of America a chance to fix it, THEN
subaru of America can offer (not MUST offer) to buy the car back. If
Subaru does not offer to do that, I have to take them to court under
lemon laws. What fun!

I have been very firm, telling them that after this next appointment
they MUST get the vehicle fixed. If they cannot, I have told them I
want them to replace the car. No one, of course, has said yes or no to
that.

Man, it really takes the fun out of getting a new car :-{

 

[ssslither9]

Ed, I can either be coasting downhill or giving it a steady supply of
gas, and the problem still occurs. Seems to be a bit worse when
coasting.

Thanks for the floor mat hint....I went out and checked mine
immediately, but it seems well clear of the gas and clutch pedals.

But it is funny that you mention this. When the car is cold, and I am
backing it out of the garage in reverse, it revs up very, very high. I
have to take it back down into neutral and hope I have enough momentum
to coast out of the garage.

Then when I am going down my (steep, steep) driveway, it does the same
thing in first, that is, revs up very very high even though I am not
giving it any gas. I have to put it into neutral until I am at the
bottom of the driveway on level road.

To me, both these situations sound like what you mean when you say, the
throttle is full off, no fuel to the injectors, should be zero surging.
But this high reving is sort of like the surging problem. I haven't
griped about it because, well, the engine only does it when its cold.

 

[Larry Van Wormer]

But this high reving is sort of like the surging problem. I haven't
griped about it because, well, the engine only does it when its cold.

I do hope you have clearly described this symptom to the Subaru people.
It could well be an important clue in fixing the overall problem.

Good luck!

Larry Van Wormer

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

It sounds like something that happened to my 2000 Outback, but it seems
to happen only when starting sometimes. It was a problem with the
throttle sensor.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Hi Carl, yes, another driver has reproduced the problem, EASILY. Even
passengers can feel tihs problem when it's happening.

The dealership is planning to give me a car when they have mine for the
next appointment.

The car is certainly under warranty. What qualifies as a malfunction
under which the warranty can be used as the legal basis to force them
to give me another car? Doesn't that vary from state to state, under
the lemon laws? As best I can tell, I have to give them a chance to
fix it, then I have to give Subaru of America a chance to fix it, THEN
subaru of America can offer (not MUST offer) to buy the car back. If
Subaru does not offer to do that, I have to take them to court under
lemon laws. What fun!

I have been very firm, telling them that after this next appointment
they MUST get the vehicle fixed. If they cannot, I have told them I
want them to replace the car. No one, of course, has said yes or no to
that.

Man, it really takes the fun out of getting a new car :-{

Yeah - but 'a chance to fix it' likely would NOT include having YOU
drive it until some decision is made on their part! I mean, have we come
to the point with CARS that we have to wait until the next version
update to get rid of the bugs in the software?

I think many states have lemon laws that require the exact same problem
be worked on by the dealership 3 times within some period like 3 months
or something. So, if they insist on making you keep the car, just drive
to the next nearest dealership the next weekend, make the tech ride with
you and document the problem. Find a third dealership the next weekend -
then go insist they keep your car and give you another one.
I bet a REAL car guy could find this. Too many techs just want to read a
code and then follow the procedure for that code.

Carl

 

[nothermark]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

I took it back to the dealership and was able to immediately
demonstrate the problem to the technician. He said it was most likely
a load-balancing problem, and that the fix was probably a computer
download similar to one he knew about in the 2005 Outback. He said he
would contact Subaru America (or whatever the corporate parent is
called) to confirm that and would get back to me that day. I asked him
if he thought the car was safe to drive (I live in the foothills of the
rockies so I'm going downhill a LOT). He said yes. I drove the car
off the lot, reassured.

Later that day, the head of the service dept. (not the technician)
called me and said that Subaru America had indicated they did NOT have
a fix for this problem. In fact, they had never heard of the problem
in 2006 Forresters. They were going to send their technicians to the
dealership to hook up the car to their diagnostic computers, as the
first step of figuring out the problem. However, they wanted the
dealership to be sure and tell me that more than likely, they would NOT
have an immediate fix for the problem. They suspected the problem was
due to the engine/transmission being NEW, and that it would most likely
right itself over time. The dealership said that Subaru America would
probably like to follow my car "over time" to see how/if the problem
resolved.

I told them this was unacceptable; if they wanted to take this car back
to "follow the problem", that's fine, I would be happy to take another
2006 Forrester that did not demonstrate the problem.

You can imagine where that statement got me - nowhere! I have a case
opened with the dealership (a technical case) and a case opened with
Subaru America (a customer service case). I have an appt. to bring the
car into the dealership at the end of this month, for the "hook up"
with the Subaru technicians. I am reading up on lemon laws in my state
(colorado).

Any advice?

thanks in advance!

1. The real question is if other cars that are the same also do this.
The dealer should be able to let you test drive or borrow another of
the same model. Not similar, the same except for color. If it does
the same thing then it is a design problem and required an engineered
fix the dealer cannot do. If it does not do the same problem you have
something "broken" that can, and should, be fixed by the dealer.

2. Be careful about being "firm" with the dealer. Complex products
like cars and computers sometimes have strange problems that take a
bit of work to fix. Trading a new one for aother one has many legal
and accounting issues so it is not something done lightly. If you
work with the dealer to find the problem most folks will work with
you. On the other hand if they get the feeling you are jerking their
strings many folks will jerk back. It is amazing how stupid some very
smart techical people get when they thing they are getting jerked
around by a customer. "This is unaceptable because it's unsafe, how
are we going to fix it?" gets one a lot farther that "Take this junk
and shove it".

 

[CompUser]

@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ssslither9
@yahoo.com says...> Any advice?

thanks in advance!

Get documentation every time you go in to
dealership.

Start and keep a phone log.

If you really want to be rid of that particular
vehicle, send a letter (two copies,certified &
first class) to dealership, if your case doesn't
meet the lemon-law standard yet.

 

[ssslither9]

nothermark, thanks for the comments.

When I go in at the end of the month for the computer analysis, I will
get a loaner car for a day. I think I'm going to go ahead and request
that it be a 2006 Forrester, then I can do as you say and determine if
the situation is the same in all forresters. But for gosh sakes,
wouldn't you think the dealer would do the kind of testing you
describe...wouldn't you think they'd want to know if all Forresters
have the problem? Rather than me requesting they do the test?

On the second point: I don't think I have been rude or insulting to
them, just firm and "on message" that if they can't fix it I want
another car. But speaking of being jerked around: at one point, the
head of the service dept. at the dealership told me the corporate
technicians were busy the rest of this month, and requested that I
"give him a call after the holidays" to remind him to set up my
appointment in December! Well, this did gall me...here was my new car
with a confirmed problem, and THEY want ME to call and remind them to
fix it! I complained, and now I have a November appointment, without
having to "remind" them. Is this what one has to do to get reasonable
service?

I guess what would have made me happy is for some representative of the
dealership to tell me "if we cannot fix this problem, you will get
another car". If I had heard that, I would give them quite a bit of
leeway in time, etc. But now I do feel that THEY are jerking ME
around, and you are right, it begins to feel antagonistic.

I am going to document everything (thanks to the poster who reminded me
of that) and will remember to not let it get personal. sigh.

 

[nothermark]

nothermark, thanks for the comments.

When I go in at the end of the month for the computer analysis, I will
get a loaner car for a day. I think I'm going to go ahead and request
that it be a 2006 Forrester, then I can do as you say and determine if
the situation is the same in all forresters. But for gosh sakes,
wouldn't you think the dealer would do the kind of testing you
describe...wouldn't you think they'd want to know if all Forresters
have the problem? Rather than me requesting they do the test?

On the second point: I don't think I have been rude or insulting to
them, just firm and "on message" that if they can't fix it I want
another car. But speaking of being jerked around: at one point, the
head of the service dept. at the dealership told me the corporate
technicians were busy the rest of this month, and requested that I
"give him a call after the holidays" to remind him to set up my
appointment in December! Well, this did gall me...here was my new car
with a confirmed problem, and THEY want ME to call and remind them to
fix it! I complained, and now I have a November appointment, without
having to "remind" them. Is this what one has to do to get reasonable
service?

I guess what would have made me happy is for some representative of the
dealership to tell me "if we cannot fix this problem, you will get
another car". If I had heard that, I would give them quite a bit of
leeway in time, etc. But now I do feel that THEY are jerking ME
around, and you are right, it begins to feel antagonistic.

I am going to document everything (thanks to the poster who reminded me
of that) and will remember to not let it get personal. sigh.

You are getting jerked around, the question is why. That was why I
cautioned you to be carefull. I would also document as was pointed
out.
I don't know why they are taking so long unless they think either the
problem or you will go away over time. My thought on the loaner is
that when you take it back you will be in a position to know if it is
your car or all of that model. That knowledge will be most helpfull
in the ensuing conversation. If they are the same a like for like
replacement won't solve the problem so engineering needs to fix it
and/or you need a different vehicle. If it's fine then they should be
able to fix it and any lemon law issues should be covered.

I don't think anyone short of the owner of the dealership could tell
you what you want to hear and I don't think he would if he could help
it as he would be eating the cost. He can't do that much and stay in
business.

 

[Guest]

I guess what would have made me happy is for some representative of the
dealership to tell me "if we cannot fix this problem, you will get
another car". If I had heard that, I would give them quite a bit of
leeway in time, etc. But now I do feel that THEY are jerking ME
around, and you are right, it begins to feel antagonistic.

[/QUOTE]
It sounds to me like it may a problem related to the engine computer.
It also sounds like they don't have a fix yet and are stalling until
they have the correct fix.
Getting another car will probably get you no where.
Better to eventually fix what you have.

 

[Michael Pardee]

It sounds to me like it may a problem related to the engine computer.
It also sounds like they don't have a fix yet and are stalling until
they have the correct fix.
Getting another car will probably get you no where.
Better to eventually fix what you have.

That's my take on it. Do you want a car that has a fixed problem or another
one that has no problems fixed yet? Better the devil you know....

Mike

 

[ssslither9]

UPDATE: Subaru of America REFUSES to acknowledge that my car is
malfunctioning!!

After SOA technicians hooked up my car to their computers and took it
for a test ride with my salesperson on November 30, my salesperson (to
whom I had demonstrated the problem) called me and said that he was
able to demonstrate the problem to the techs, who had acknowledged it
was a problem. So they were able to collect data from the engine.

When I went to pick up my car that day, they said, well, we have seen
this problem in one other Subaru Forrester 2006, We should have a
computer fix for you within 4 to 8 weeks.

Needless to say I wasn't happy that I had to continue to drive this car
for 4 to 8 weeks. However, I was floored by the phone call I got today
from Subaru of America. They said they had determined that my car is
functioning normally, and they are closing my case!!

I am just astounded. I really thought either the dealership or the
corporate parent would deal with this problem. Clearly, I now have to
sue them. If anyone has any advice or help in dealing with this, I
would appreciate it.

I just talked to my salesman and he offered to "testify" for me if I
needed him. He said he personally would test every Subaru Forrester
2006 before selling it to some other poor sucker. Can you imagine????

DO NOT BUY CARS FROM SUBARU - or if you do, be very, very careful!!

 

[Mortimer Schnurd]

2006 before selling it to some other poor sucker. Can you imagine????

DO NOT BUY CARS FROM SUBARU - or if you do, be very, very careful!!

Still ANOTHER unhappy Subaru customer......
Subaru's motto is.......
We dont care.....we dont have to!
We are Subaru!

My condolances...

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

UPDATE: Subaru of America REFUSES to acknowledge that my car is
malfunctioning!!

After SOA technicians hooked up my car to their computers and took it
for a test ride with my salesperson on November 30, my salesperson (to
whom I had demonstrated the problem) called me and said that he was
able to demonstrate the problem to the techs, who had acknowledged it
was a problem. So they were able to collect data from the engine.

When I went to pick up my car that day, they said, well, we have seen
this problem in one other Subaru Forrester 2006, We should have a
computer fix for you within 4 to 8 weeks.

Needless to say I wasn't happy that I had to continue to drive this car
for 4 to 8 weeks. However, I was floored by the phone call I got today
from Subaru of America. They said they had determined that my car is
functioning normally, and they are closing my case!!

I am just astounded. I really thought either the dealership or the
corporate parent would deal with this problem. Clearly, I now have to
sue them. If anyone has any advice or help in dealing with this, I
would appreciate it.

I just talked to my salesman and he offered to "testify" for me if I
needed him. He said he personally would test every Subaru Forrester
2006 before selling it to some other poor sucker. Can you imagine????

DO NOT BUY CARS FROM SUBARU - or if you do, be very, very careful!!

You might post your story and check links to lemon laws by state at;
http://www.deniedmywarranty.org/index1.html

Did you personally drive a Forester that behaved 'normally'? I would
insist the region guy take a ride in both vehicles. If they won't, or if
in the face of the obvious they still are unconvinced, then just ask for
the legal dept. I guess. If your city has a 'consumer advocate' dude on
TV - that could be another avenue to explore. Seems a shame to have to
go to some extreme for a problem you can demonstrate to a tech.

good luck

carl

 

[ssslither9]

Hey carl, no, I did not drive different Foresters to see if they
exhibited the problem. I did not notice this problem when I test-drove
the vehicle I purchased. When SOA tested my car on 11/30, I asked that
the loaner car be a 06 Forester, so I could do just as you suggest, but
was told they did not have a manual on the lot. Hmm.

As for "insisting" on anything, that does not seem to be an option at
this dealership. I tried "insisting" that they fix my car, and it got
me nowhere! I tried "insisting" that 4 to 8 weeks was too long to wait
for a computer fix - ditto. Asking for the legal department? No, I
didn't do that...I asked for the service manager at one point and was
told he would not be in for an hour. I didn't wait, figuring that my
"insisting" was getting me nowhere so far, why should I expect that the
service manager would listen to reason? Ah, it's just been one long
comedy of errors (theirs).

Subnote to the story: when SOA called me today to tell me they were
closing my case because the consider the car to be driving normally,
they offfered me a $1000 "customer gift certificate" (or some other
term, can't recall exactly), I suppose in lieu of exercising on my
rights! Wonder what I would have had to sign to get that $1000!