'97 Legacy GT no spark to two cylinders.

D

David Farber

I have a '97 Legacy wagon GT, 2.5L engine with about 72k miles. My car was
going along just fine on the freeway at 65mph when all of a sudden it lost
power. I was able to safely coast to a stop away from traffic. I had the car
towed to a local mechanic. He called me the next morning when he had time to
debrief me about the failure and whether or not it had overheated or I heard
any unusual mechanical noises. I told him the temperature gauge never moved
above where it usually sits and there were no extra noises. He said he could
not pinpoint the trouble right away. The engine check light did not come on.
The timing belt was good and nothing else seemed wrong at first glance.
Later that afternoon he called back and told me that two of the cylinders
were not getting spark. That made sense because when I tried to restart the
car after it shut down, the engine was shaking pretty good like it was
missing on two cylinders. It would not run like that of course. The mechanic
decided to replace one of the coils as an educated guess. It took about a
day to order and receive this coil. He said that there are two coils and
each coil is responsible for firing two cylinders. The new coil however did
not change the situation. Still two dead cylinders. Now the mechanic seems a
little bit lost as to what to do next. He works on all types of cars and
probably doesn't get very acquainted with any one type very well. My feeling
is that it should be fairly easy to hook up a scope and see if there is
signal getting to the coil that is not sparking. My guess is there isn't any
input signal to the coil since the new coil did not fix the problem.
Tomorrow will be day 3 in the shop for my car and still no correct
diagnosis. So my questions are these. What part of the system sends the
signal to the coil to fire? I know there's a cam sensor but is that
responsible for the ignition firing? If so, is there a cam sensor for each
coil? Any explanation of this would be appreciated. The last time I worked
on cars they had points and a distributor. (-;

Thanks for your reply.
 
Yes, there is a cam position sensor and other sensors which feed the
computer, and yes, the engine won't run right when one of those sensors
isn't working. I had the dealer playing "let's try replacing this one" on
my 96 Outback with similar mileage until they replaced the right one.
 
Yes, there is a cam position sensor and other sensors which feed the
computer, and yes, the engine won't run right when one of those sensors
isn't working. I had the dealer playing "let's try replacing this one" on
my 96 Outback with similar mileage until they replaced the right one.

Take it to a good mechanic that won't charge you for all the parts, just
labour for ripping sensors out and putting the "good" ones back in.

If you have absolutely no indication which sensor is gone, it's gonna be
like trying to replace the blue christmas light that is blown when you pull
them out of the box each year - keep goin and goin until you find it.

-mark
 
mark jb said:
Take it to a good mechanic that won't charge you for all the parts, just
labour for ripping sensors out and putting the "good" ones back in.

If you have absolutely no indication which sensor is gone, it's gonna be
like trying to replace the blue christmas light that is blown when you pull
them out of the box each year - keep goin and goin until you find it.

-mark

Hi Mark,

Are the sensors in an easily accessible location or does the engine have to
be torn apart? I believe my mechanic is honest enough not to charge me for
parts that don't repair the problem. I was just hoping the job would not
have been so involved.

Thanks for your reply.
 
Hi David!

I have a '97 Legacy wagon GT, 2.5L engine with about 72k miles

I looked thru the wiring diagram for the '02 2.5 Impreza, (probably
not identical, but similar I'll bet) and it appears that both the cam
sensor, and the crank sensor (_all_ of the sensors for that matter),
and the ignition coil (only one on that engine), are connected thru
the ECU. There is also a module labeled "GE" associated with the coil;
perhaps a resistor?
I would be surprised if connecting an OBD scanner didn't pinpoint the
problem, but if not, look for open connectors or bad wires in and
around the engine wiring harness. See if you can find the resistor
module(s ?), and check for continuity. Try swapping the ignition coils
to see if the problem follows the coil. You should be able to put a
scope on the cam/crank sensors; IIRC they are magnetic pickup
thingies, and there should be pulses as the engine rotates.
Eventually, you will probably want the shop manual/wiring diagram
specific to your car. I don't have one, but perhaps someone on the
group does, and will share. If nothing else, I think Subaru has them
available for down-load for a modest fee; check their web site.
Hope this helps a bit.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
 
S said:
Hi David!



I looked thru the wiring diagram for the '02 2.5 Impreza, (probably
not identical, but similar I'll bet) and it appears that both the cam
sensor, and the crank sensor (_all_ of the sensors for that matter),
and the ignition coil (only one on that engine), are connected thru
the ECU. There is also a module labeled "GE" associated with the coil;
perhaps a resistor?
I would be surprised if connecting an OBD scanner didn't pinpoint the
problem, but if not, look for open connectors or bad wires in and
around the engine wiring harness. See if you can find the resistor
module(s ?), and check for continuity. Try swapping the ignition coils
to see if the problem follows the coil. You should be able to put a
scope on the cam/crank sensors; IIRC they are magnetic pickup
thingies, and there should be pulses as the engine rotates.
Eventually, you will probably want the shop manual/wiring diagram
specific to your car. I don't have one, but perhaps someone on the
group does, and will share. If nothing else, I think Subaru has them
available for down-load for a modest fee; check their web site.
Hope this helps a bit.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Hi Steve,

It's now the beginning of day 4 in the shop. Still no progress. I just
called my mechanic and he is going to get some troubleshooting assistance
from a more experienced tech. One thing he said was that the OBD scanner is
not of much help because the car won't start. I find that hard to believe. I
looked up the Subaru link for the service manual. To download the pdf from
Subaru there is a fee. However, where I grew up, $200 for a paperless
service manual doesn't seem so modest. Do you think the independently
published service manuals are detailed enough to provide some help with
electrical problems?

I've been busy with my work and have not had a moment to even look
underneath the hood. Otherwise, I would park myself in this guy's shop and
get an idea of what the big mystery is.

Thanks for your reply.
 
TG said:
The OBD II Website might be some help to your "mechanic" I use the term
loosly. You may not have time but factory service manuals can be bought on
CD ROM at the Ebay site for $10-$30. ...I'm still thinking coil pack and
would swap them and see if the miss goes to the other cylinders. TG

David Farber said:
Hi Steve,

It's now the beginning of day 4 in the shop. Still no progress. I just
called my mechanic and he is going to get some troubleshooting assistance
from a more experienced tech. One thing he said was that the OBD scanner
is
not of much help because the car won't start. I find that hard to believe.
I
looked up the Subaru link for the service manual. To download the pdf from
Subaru there is a fee. However, where I grew up, $200 for a paperless
service manual doesn't seem so modest. Do you think the independently
published service manuals are detailed enough to provide some help with
electrical problems?

I've been busy with my work and have not had a moment to even look
underneath the hood. Otherwise, I would park myself in this guy's shop and
get an idea of what the big mystery is.

Thanks for your reply.

I got a call back today from the shop. The more experienced mechanic told me
there was no compression on the cylinders not firing. I had a poor cell
phone connection so it was difficult to tell if he said both non-firing
cylinders had no compression or all the cylinders had no compression. He
also said that it appeared the cam timing was off and the valves were
suspect even though the timing belt was good. He is going to remove the head
and check the valves. He also expressed concern because he can't figure out
how the timing shifted without the belt braking. In other words, he doesn't
want to have the problem happen again to me. I'm waiting for the next
update.

Thanks for your reply.
 
David Farber said:
TG said:
The OBD II Website might be some help to your "mechanic" I use the term
loosly. You may not have time but factory service manuals can be bought on
CD ROM at the Ebay site for $10-$30. ...I'm still thinking coil pack and
would swap them and see if the miss goes to the other cylinders. TG



I got a call back today from the shop. The more experienced mechanic told me
there was no compression on the cylinders not firing. I had a poor cell
phone connection so it was difficult to tell if he said both non-firing
cylinders had no compression or all the cylinders had no compression. He
also said that it appeared the cam timing was off and the valves were
suspect even though the timing belt was good. He is going to remove the head
and check the valves. He also expressed concern because he can't figure out
how the timing shifted without the belt braking. In other words, he doesn't
want to have the problem happen again to me. I'm waiting for the next
update.

Thanks for your reply.

The car was finally repaired two days ago. There were eight bad intake
valves which were caused when the timing went out of sync. The parts
replaced included the timing belt kit with bearings, pulleys, and hydraulic
tensioner. Also replaced was the water pump, thermostat, spark plugs, and of
course all the gaskets and seals. I saw the old belt and it did look in good
condition. The car runs quite smoothly now. The repair cost $1,618.
 

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