The sti is a nice drive, but...

[Mark Guzowski]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Re : The sti is a nice drive, but...
Date: Jul 10 2003 12:45:27

I almost bought an sti, but the clutch problems with my first year wrx
gave me serious pause wrt purchasing a first year sti (which indeed
has a new transmission, besides being the first year in North
America). Redline helped my wrx clutch for about a week, until some
real hot days & air conditioner driving, then the grinding came back
in spades (sure, double clutching helps). I'd be seriously pissed if
I got two lemons. If Subaru stands by the wrx, I'll certainly
reconsider the sti, but until then, I like the looks of the M3 and NSX
for non-winter car fun. A couple years down the road, with the same
transmission still in place, the sti could be a real contender with a
real North American track record.

It's easy to get spoiled by three stick cars in a row with zero clutch
problems, all of which were driven at least as hard as the wrx, had
far more miles on 'em than the wrx, and two of which cost a ridiculous
amount less.

- -----

Mark Guzowski
(e-mail address removed)
http://guzowski.20m.com

This message has been digitally signed. Authenticity can be verified
upon request.

A few of the words I live by: "Live life day to day, on your own terms
(not someone else's). Set your own moral compass, let it not be set
for you. Define your own self worth, let it not be defined for you.
Your creativity (i.e., intellectual property) is yours to do with as
you please; in absence of an explicit agreement to the contrary
(signed by you) it is not for others to do with as they please."

About the email content: This email reflects my opinions. If the
content offends, and you are a member of law enforcement (e.g., local
police, fbi, nsa, or rcmp), first ask yourself if you have a legal
wiretap. If not, stop reading the email Ass. Otherwise, chill out -
they're only my opinions after all.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 6.5.8ckt http://www.ipgpp.com/

iQA/AwUBPw23ldLK84BgYAPjEQKeZgCfYDkmoHNAYoYjb0L7rtAJK0jAZuYAn2+/
YlIrGM15iBc3pNfvks4unOyU
=nJOo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

 

[Cam Penner]

I am thinking of purschaseing a impreza TS wagon. Do they have any
known problems with their trannies? Ive read that you cant gear down
into 1st gear in a WRX unless you come to a complete stop. Is that
the case with all impreza models? or just the WRX? I think this
problem is the reason that clutch issues develope. But i could be
wrong.

I haven't driven a WRX, but my MY02 RS will gear down into first while
moving. I do it regularly.

 

[Rory]

Ditto for my 2002TS. No problems getting into first while the car is moving.

If you are going faster then 5-10 kph, you do have to double clutch it.

R.

 

[FNO]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Re : The sti is a nice drive, but...
Date: Jul 10 2003 12:45:27

I almost bought an sti, but the clutch problems with my first year wrx
gave me serious pause wrt purchasing a first year sti (which indeed
has a new transmission, besides being the first year in North
America). Redline helped my wrx clutch for about a week, until some
real hot days & air conditioner driving, then the grinding came back
in spades (sure, double clutching helps). I'd be seriously pissed if
I got two lemons. If Subaru stands by the wrx, I'll certainly
reconsider the sti, but until then, I like the looks of the M3 and NSX
for non-winter car fun. A couple years down the road, with the same
transmission still in place, the sti could be a real contender with a
real North American track record.

It's easy to get spoiled by three stick cars in a row with zero clutch
problems, all of which were driven at least as hard as the wrx, had
far more miles on 'em than the wrx, and two of which cost a ridiculous
amount less.

- -----

Mark Guzowski
(e-mail address removed)
http://guzowski.20m.com

I did buy an STi. The tranny seems pretty solid and the clutch is different
than the WRX. In addition, it is the same tranny that is in all STi cars
worldwide. The difference the North American version has is the 2.5L vs the
2.0L turbo. I am more concerned with the engine than the tranny. However,
Subaru has a pretty good track record, so I am pretty comfortable with it.

 

[SuperPoo]

If Subaru stands by the wrx...

They have, there is a tsb for replacing the WRX clutch.

Steve

 

[FNO]

My understanding if that the engine is somewhat similar to that found on
turbo forester and baja but is tuned for perf vs. longevity on the other
two.

They are not. The STi 2.5L has been strengthened, the rods and valves are
different, and it has variable valve timing. In addition, it is nearly
impossible to get the correct fuel in most places (it needs 93+ octane).
Consequently, one has to resort to octane boost additives. These are the
things that concern me.

 

[TransFixed]

They are not. The STi 2.5L has been strengthened, the rods and valves are
different, and it has variable valve timing. In addition, it is nearly
impossible to get the correct fuel in most places (it needs 93+ octane).
Consequently, one has to resort to octane boost additives. These are the
things that concern me.

Not sure what this has to do with the original thread, but morden is
correct. The engines are essentially the same:
- DOHC vs. SOHC engine on 2.0l or non-turbo
- variable valve timing (Active Valve Control System)
- enhanced semi-closed deck aluminum engine block
- redesigned pistons and camshaft to reduce weight
- electronic throttle control

Sure, the STi produces more boost and has a larger intercooler. And
thanks to the increased boost, higher octane is a really good thing
(even the Forester needs 91+ octane).

By the way, C/D tested the Forester XT at 5.3 sec 0-60mph and 13.8 sec @
97 mph - both subtantially better than the WRX!

- D.

 

[FNO]

Not sure what this has to do with the original thread, but morden is
correct. The engines are essentially the same:
- DOHC vs. SOHC engine on 2.0l or non-turbo
- variable valve timing (Active Valve Control System)
- enhanced semi-closed deck aluminum engine block
- redesigned pistons and camshaft to reduce weight
- electronic throttle control

Sure, the STi produces more boost and has a larger intercooler. And
thanks to the increased boost, higher octane is a really good thing
(even the Forester needs 91+ octane).

By the way, C/D tested the Forester XT at 5.3 sec 0-60mph and 13.8 sec @
97 mph - both subtantially better than the WRX!

- D.

Actually, it doesn't produce more boost - 14.2 PSI same as the 2L WRX. It
also has the same compression ratio of 8:1. Saying that the STi 2.5L is
like all the other 2.5L with all of the differences you highlighted is like
saying the Dodge 3.0L is the same as GM 3.1L; both have 6 cylinders so they
are the same...

The Forester is essentially the same chassis as a the Impreza, and it is
geared much lower than the WRX. It has better low-end grunt than the WRX
(which makes sense since it is targeting an SUV market), but it tops out
substantially slower than a WRX (which also makes sense; the WRX is a
rally-inspired car). However, 5.3 secs 0-60 is not a whole lot faster than
the WRX. In addition, handling is where the WRX shines. Both the WRX and
the STi are up around the .9 range (.93-.96 for the STi, depending on who
you talk to) on the skid pad, where the Forester was in the .78-.84 range.

They are different vehicles for totally different purposes.

 

[Shomuni]

I am thinking of purschaseing a impreza TS wagon. Do they have any
known problems with their trannies? Ive read that you cant gear down
into 1st gear in a WRX unless you come to a complete stop. Is that
the case with all impreza models? or just the WRX? I think this
problem is the reason that clutch issues develope. But i could be
wrong.

The WRX or at least mine has to be going 10 mph or less to get back
into 1st gear. Makes for a problem in Autocross. Maybe Redline would
help? Either way it's may last WRX mainly due to teh oversensitive ABS
which has nearly gotten m into accidents on dry road at low speeds. A
pothole will activate the ABS and it takes longer to stop in a
straight line. Forget winter driving I've had $300 POS beater cars
that stopped better. Their ABS is known to be oversensitive.
Plenty of other cars out there and in 3 years unless the problem is
fixed my next car will NOT be a Subaru.

 

[TransFixed]

Actually, it doesn't produce more boost - 14.2 PSI same as the 2L WRX.

The Forester XT has only 11.6 psi boost.

It
also has the same compression ratio of 8:1. Saying that the STi 2.5L is
like all the other 2.5L with all of the differences you highlighted is like
saying the Dodge 3.0L is the same as GM 3.1L; both have 6 cylinders so they
are the same...

I guess I did not make myself clear - those are *similarities*, not
differences. And I forgot to mention the sodium-filled exhaust valves.
Of course, I am only talking about the 2.5l turbo in the Forester and
Baja, not about the NA engines.

The Forester is essentially the same chassis as a the Impreza, and it is
geared much lower than the WRX. It has better low-end grunt than the WRX
(which makes sense since it is targeting an SUV market), but it tops out
substantially slower than a WRX (which also makes sense; the WRX is a
rally-inspired car).

And the Forester is a brick on wheels - after 80mph or so wind
resistance will play a role.

However, 5.3 secs 0-60 is not a whole lot faster than
the WRX. In addition, handling is where the WRX shines. Both the WRX and
the STi are up around the .9 range (.93-.96 for the STi, depending on who
you talk to) on the skid pad, where the Forester was in the .78-.84 range.

I agree, although with a little suspension work (minumum, thicker sway
bar) and some decent tires, the difference would narrow a bit. By the
way, C/D only recorded 0.81g for the WRX with stock tires (although I
think that number can be disputed!)

They are different vehicles for totally different purposes.

Yes, and also for different type of owners. I prefer the stealth of the
XT, and I am sure I will get fewer midlife-crisis comments when I buy it.

- D.

 

[morden]

The WRX or at least mine has to be going 10 mph or less to get back
into 1st gear. Makes for a problem in Autocross. Maybe Redline would
help? Either way it's may last WRX mainly due to teh oversensitive ABS
which has nearly gotten m into accidents on dry road at low speeds. A
pothole will activate the ABS and it takes longer to stop in a
straight line. Forget winter driving I've had $300 POS beater cars
that stopped better. Their ABS is known to be oversensitive.
Plenty of other cars out there and in 3 years unless the problem is
fixed my next car will NOT be a Subaru.

Whoa, what a problem. It would've took me a whopping 10 seconds to pull
the fuse that controlls ABS. If you're even more
mechanically/electrically inept than me I'm sure Jose at a local
gas station will happily pull that fuse for you if you have a spare $20
bill.

 

[morden]

I could not find drag coefficient in the specs on the Subaru site
anymore. Probably some smartass from marketing decided to save some
space. Does anyone know what it is for the Forester?

Nevermind, I googled it up. It's .36 per this page:

http://www.velocityjrnl.com/jrnl/2004/vmd9476sp.html

I guess the top speed is probably the same as for the Impreza TS/RS...
but the fuel economy and the touring range at that speed is not :^)

 

[Shomuni]

Whoa, what a problem. It would've took me a whopping 10 seconds to pull
the fuse that controlls ABS. If you're even more
mechanically/electrically inept than me I'm sure Jose at a local
gas station will happily pull that fuse for you if you have a spare $20
bill.

The problem as you put it is NOT physically pulling out the fuse. I've
probably worked on more cars and owned more cars than you ever will.
The Problem is that if I remove the fuse and get into an accident I
will be at fault for tampering with the brakes.
I don't know about you I know you aren't from the USA but my home
State is a very litigeous one and personally I don't want to lose all
I own because of a design flaw. But should I get into an accident you
can bet your ass I will sue Subaru if it's because the damn car won't
stop when it ought to. Oh I might lose but maybe that will convince
them to fix the brakes. In 3 years if I haven't moved I might go for a
new Vette.
Oh and in case you doubt me call up the Insurance Commisioner for this
State and chat with him about tampering. My own Ins. Co. would have
every right to take me to court. Who would win is up to a judge but if
it involves a pedestrian you are screwed. In your country the cops
just gun down people with machine guns, so a fuse is probably no big
deal.

 

[morden]

The problem as you put it is NOT physically pulling out the fuse. I've
probably worked on more cars and owned more cars than you ever will.
The Problem is that if I remove the fuse and get into an accident I
will be at fault for tampering with the brakes.

You don't have to make it as evident. You can put a blown fuse of
correct amperage into the ABS fuse socket.

I don't know about you I know you aren't from the USA but my home
State is a very litigeous one and personally I don't want to lose all
I own because of a design flaw. But should I get into an accident you
can bet your ass I will sue Subaru if it's because the damn car won't
stop when it ought to. Oh I might lose but maybe that will convince
them to fix the brakes. In 3 years if I haven't moved I might go for a
new Vette.
Oh and in case you doubt me call up the Insurance Commisioner for this
State and chat with him about tampering. My own Ins. Co. would have
every right to take me to court. Who would win is up to a judge but if
it involves a pedestrian you are screwed. In your country the cops
just gun down people with machine guns, so a fuse is probably no big
deal.

I have no idea what the f^$* are you talking about.

Good luck with the Vette.

 

[uglymoney]

Ditto for my 2002TS. No problems getting into first while the car is moving.

If you are going faster then 5-10 kph, you do have to double clutch it.

R.

Ooops, with 'double clutch' I'm sure we have gone over the
heads of those that can't get it into first over 10 mph.

I can shift my 02 Outback MT5 into first at 30 mph, without
even pushing in the clutch.

Do it regularly. In fact I often don't use the clutch for
most everyday normal shifting. Its just a habit, didn't do
it with my SHO either, though I could shift it into first at
45 mph without pushing in the clutch, due to much higher
gearing. Comes from driving unsynched trannies and shifting
them relentlessly till the clutch becomes a bother.

nate

 

[morden]

It's 0.35 per Subaru (down from 0.39-0.4 on pre-2003 models). However,
don't forget that the wind resistance is c_D * frontal_area. Due it's
shape, the latter is also quite a bit more on the Forester compared to
various Impreza models.

I could not seem to google the size of the frontal area on Forester.
But per this site top speed is electronically limited to 129 mph anyway:

http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?id1=277&id2=0

I was a bit surprised that XT 0-60 time is better than that of Porsche
Cayenne that cost 2-4 times as much. Of course Cayenne does 150+ mph
and XT does not, but I guess the touring range of Cayenne is limited by
the size of the fuel tank at that speed :-D

 

[Rory]

Perhaps I should reword: "If *I* am going faster then 5-10 kph, I feel more
comfortable double clutching it"

As far as not using the clutch at all..... ick. Never could work up the
nerve to try and regularly shift without it. That grinding noise if you
don't nail it perfectly really gets to me .

Cheers,

R.

 

[TransFixed]

I could not seem to google the size of the frontal area on Forester.

Based on width X height, it is about 14% larger than the WRX wagon. So,
you could say that has the same result as an effective drag coefficient
of 0.4 compared to the 0.33 of the WRX wagon.

But per this site top speed is electronically limited to 129 mph anyway:

http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?id1=277&id2=0

I was a bit surprised that XT 0-60 time is better than that of Porsche
Cayenne that cost 2-4 times as much.

.... and almost weighs twice as much. I was surprised when I saw the
weight on that thing (5724 lbs for the turbo model, according to C/D).
C/D tested the Cayenne turbo at 5.0 sec 0-60, but the XT is faster up to
40mph due to its gearing, and with the Cayenne numbers 13.5 sec @ 104
mph they are basically even on the quarter mile, with the Cayenne coming
out at higher speed. C/Ds drag-limited top speed was 161 mph.

Of course Cayenne does 150+ mph
and XT does not, but I guess the touring range of Cayenne is limited by
the size of the fuel tank at that speed :-D

Still, I would say if you can afford a Cayenne, you could care less that
there are small, relatively inexpensive cars out there that are faster.
To satisfy your ego, perhaps you could add a "My other car is a 911
Turbo S" license plate frame.

- D.

 

[Bruce Hoult]

What I do not understand is why the Impreza is rated so low for towing in
the US, where the same car with a smaller (2.0L) engine is rated at 1500kg
in the UK.

Legal towing weights are completely unrelated to the size and power of
the engine. It's the *braking* ability that is normally at issue --
distance to stop from a given speed, and the amount of control you have
while doing it.

-- Bruce

 

[uglymoney]

Perhaps I should reword: "If *I* am going faster then 5-10 kph, I feel more
comfortable double clutching it"

As far as not using the clutch at all..... ick. Never could work up the
nerve to try and regularly shift without it. That grinding noise if you
don't nail it perfectly really gets to me .

Yep.

I'm not recommending it to anybody else. I have an ear for
it, and never grind anything. I can go thirty miles per
hour and shift into all five gears without a single grind.

Just something I enjoy doing. Its why I own a five speed.

I did it with my Taurus SHO from 60k to 185k, and the tranny
was still perfect, and is in another SHO now, after the Ford
underbody rusted away.

Thanks for rewording your comments. I think your on my side
of the fence.

nate