Ow ... 105k maintenace

[Todd H.]

Just need an e.shoulder to cry on. Looks like I'm due for $1900 for
routine mtc with a third party trusted mechanic. I was derelict on my
90k service so I'm due for:

repack wheel bearings
fluid changes/flush: brake, tranny, both diffs
timing belt (it's cracking)
all drive belts
upper/lower radiator hoses (cracking)
plug wires
plugs
fuel filter
fuel injector cleaning service

One non-routine thing is steep too:

all new premium ceramic brakepads, new rotors

*sigh* Anyone make me feel any better?

 

[Steve Parker]

Just need an e.shoulder to cry on. Looks like I'm due for $1900 for
routine mtc with a third party trusted mechanic. I was derelict on my
90k service so I'm due for:

repack wheel bearings
fluid changes/flush: brake, tranny, both diffs
timing belt (it's cracking)
all drive belts
upper/lower radiator hoses (cracking)
plug wires
plugs
fuel filter
fuel injector cleaning service

One non-routine thing is steep too:

all new premium ceramic brakepads, new rotors

*sigh* Anyone make me feel any better?

Todd,
Change the water pump while you're at it. Doesn't that feel better?

 

[Edward Hayes]

Slip the special brake pads and rotors & injector cleaner (use a
bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner) & wheel bearing repacking
(forget that). Do just what your manual recommends and I'd think your
looking at ~$900. Shop around for a better price.

 

[BobN]

repack wheel bearings
fluid changes/flush: brake, tranny, both diffs
timing belt (it's cracking)
all drive belts
upper/lower radiator hoses (cracking)
plug wires
plugs
fuel filter
fuel injector cleaning service

You DON'T need a fuel injector cleaning service. As to the rest, this sounds
like a great time to buy a Chilton or Haynes shop manual and learn about
your car. You can save a lot of $$ here.

I'm skeptical about the wheel bearings. If they aren't making any noise and
don't have any freeplay, they should still be fine. My wheel bearings have
over 256K miles on them and they are just fine.

If you are at all handy you can do the plugs, plug wires and fuel filter
yourself. The radiator hoses are also trival, but you have to be careful
when refilling the system to avoid getting an air bubble in the engine that
could cause head gasket failure.

The fluid flushes make sense, only because the shop has the right equipment
to dispose of the old fluids properly. That said, the diffs use gear oil and
changing that is just like doing a motor oil change - I do those myself. The
auto tranny flush requires the shop. The brake fluid job is also important,
and it takes some skill to bleed the brakes correctly, so best left to a pro
(someone you can sue).

If the estimate for replacing drive belts contains any labor above that
already included in the timing belt replacement, that's wrong - the drive
belts have to come off to do the timing belt.

The timing belt replacement IS mission critical and if you already know it
is cracking you should not drive the car until the job is done, unless you
want to buy a new engine. While the timing belt is off, have the crankshaft
and camshaft oil seals checked out and if they are leaking, replaced. The
parts are cheap (around $30 for all 5 seals) and replacing them requires
removing the timing belt so best to do it at the same time. Also replace the
o-ring that seals the oil pump and make sure that the mounting bolts are
fastened using Loc-Tite so they won't back out causing a leak.

Is there any problem with braking that would indicate you need new rotors?
If you aren't getting any shuddering, vibration or grinding when braking,
the rotors should be checked for thickness and if ok don't need replacing.
What are the fancy pads and what do they cost compared to OEM Subaru? I
found that for some reason only the OEM pads are squeal-free, and they
should be cheaper than a "premium" aftermarket pad.

My local Suby dealer would charge around $575 for a timing belt and oil
seals change, plus another $130 or so for the tranny flush. I don't know
about the brake fluid, I do that myself. I'm getting ready to do my timing
belt at home to save that $$.

 

[Todd H.]

Slip the special brake pads and rotors & injector cleaner (use a
bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner) & wheel bearing repacking
(forget that). Do just what your manual recommends and I'd think your
looking at ~$900. Shop around for a better price.

Thanks for the reply Edward.

If my brakes and rotors weren't shot and vibrating to hell, I'd love
to skip those sons a bitches. The premium ceramic pads/rotors
total $50 less than OEM pads/rotors, and past experience indicates
anything less seems to have problems.

Are Subies simply not prone to injector clogging? The injector
service is $160 and takes about 2 hrs evidently, but I'd be happy to
skip that if it's rarely an issue with these vehicles.

Best Regards,

 

[Todd H.]

You DON'T need a fuel injector cleaning service.

The mechanic seemed to think that given the mileage that he'd
recommend it as preventive to a clogged injector which would run
several hundred to fix. Are Subie injectors fairly resilient to this
sort of thing?

As to the rest, this sounds like a great time to buy a Chilton or
Haynes shop manual and learn about your car. You can save a lot of
$$ here.

Oh I agree. Just don't have the time (that reason is a few months
old, and spits up a lot).

I'm skeptical about the wheel bearings. If they aren't making any
noise and don't have any freeplay, they should still be fine. My
wheel bearings have over 256K miles on them and they are just fine.

Good to know. But he was repacking them while they were already in
there, and it didn't really add to the expense.

If you are at all handy you can do the plugs, plug wires and fuel
filter yourself. The radiator hoses are also trival, but you have
to be careful when refilling the system to avoid getting an air
bubble in the engine that could cause head gasket failure.

Yeah I don't like dealing with antifreeze disposal. I've also read
that the plugs on this model are a PITA to get to. Anyone confirm or
deny? Normally I do my own plugs but I recall a reason at 60k I
didn't bother.

The fluid flushes make sense, only because the shop has the right
equipment to dispose of the old fluids properly. That said, the
diffs use gear oil and changing that is just like doing a motor oil
change - I do those myself.

Didn't know diffs were that simple--good to know for the next time
anyway.

The auto tranny flush requires the shop. The brake fluid job is also
important, and it takes some skill to bleed the brakes correctly, so
best left to a pro (someone you can sue).

Yeah, you read my mind there.

If the estimate for replacing drive belts contains any labor above that
already included in the timing belt replacement, that's wrong - the drive
belts have to come off to do the timing belt.

Yeah, no adder there.

The timing belt replacement IS mission critical and if you already know it
is cracking you should not drive the car until the job is done, unless you
want to buy a new engine.

Been there done that on a Honda long ago where the first engine let
go, used engine was put in and the dingbat didn't bother checking the
belts adequately and turns out the timing belt on the used engine was
pretty dryrotted. I have 4 shiny paperweights now that used to be
exhaust vavles as souvenirs from that little learning experience with
the used engine market.

While the timing belt is off, have the crankshaft and camshaft oil
seals checked out and if they are leaking, replaced. The parts are
cheap (around $30 for all 5 seals) and replacing them requires
removing the timing belt so best to do it at the same time. Also
replace the o-ring that seals the oil pump and make sure that the
mounting bolts are fastened using Loc-Tite so they won't back out
causing a leak.

Interesting--that never came up in our discussion. I'll ask.

Is there any problem with braking that would indicate you need new
rotors?

Yes, shuddering, uneven pad wear. The last folks who did the brakes
thought it'd be a great idea to machine the rotors past their runout
tolerance.

What are the fancy pads and what do they cost compared to OEM
Subaru? I found that for some reason only the OEM pads are
squeal-free, and they should be cheaper than a "premium" aftermarket
pad.

I priced this ahead of time going OEM on pads and rotors would add
another $75 to the job. I can't recall the brand but they're
evidently the top of the line ceramic. $375 was the parts cost for
the front/rear pads+rotors.

My local Suby dealer would charge around $575 for a timing belt and
oil seals change, plus another $130 or so for the tranny flush. I
don't know about the brake fluid, I do that myself. I'm getting
ready to do my timing belt at home to save that $$.

Thanks for the input.

I don't feel any better though.

 

[BobN]

Todd, sounds like you are getting a good estimate on the bits that are
needed. But 160 clams for "fuel injector cleaning"??!! That is a pure
profit grab. Buy a can of SeaFoam for $7 at your local auto parts store, add
it to a tank of gas, and you will have done every bit as much good as that
"service". Actually, the SeaFoam is seriously good as a fuel system
cleaner, and I use it. Techron by Chevron is also good and available cheap
at Wal-Mart.

 

[Edward Hayes]

Todd: We just saved you ~$600 and you don't feel better?

 

[Todd H.]

Todd: We just saved you ~$600 and you don't feel better?

I missed where I'm saving $600 with the work being done tomorrow?

I do appreciate the replies though!

 

[Todd H.]

Todd, sounds like you are getting a good estimate on the bits that are
needed. But 160 clams for "fuel injector cleaning"??!! That is a pure
profit grab. Buy a can of SeaFoam for $7 at your local auto parts store, add
it to a tank of gas, and you will have done every bit as much good as that
"service". Actually, the SeaFoam is seriously good as a fuel system
cleaner, and I use it. Techron by Chevron is also good and available cheap
at Wal-Mart.

Actually it seems to be more than that...involving some machine
delivering chemical cleaners to the system and sounds as though it
interfaces to a number of the parts of the system, cleaning the entire
fuel delivery system?

I may be about to back out of it if injector clogging just doesn't
seem to happen enough to worry about it though. The work is to be
completed tomorrow.

Best Regards,

 

[Mark Hoffman]

Just need an e.shoulder to cry on. Looks like I'm due for $1900 for
routine mtc with a third party trusted mechanic. I was derelict on my
90k service so I'm due for:

repack wheel bearings
fluid changes/flush: brake, tranny, both diffs
timing belt (it's cracking)
all drive belts
upper/lower radiator hoses (cracking)
plug wires
plugs
fuel filter
fuel injector cleaning service

One non-routine thing is steep too:

all new premium ceramic brakepads, new rotors

*sigh* Anyone make me feel any better?

will a large jar of vaseline ease the pain?

 

[Todd H.]

will a large jar of vaseline ease the pain?

Heh... Exactly. Feels like i'm being invaded somewhere.

 

[Stephen H]

Just need an e.shoulder to cry on. Looks like I'm due for $1900 for
routine mtc with a third party trusted mechanic. I was derelict on my
90k service so I'm due for:

repack wheel bearings

----Most subies don't have repachable bearings

fluid changes/flush: brake, tranny, both diffs Do It
timing belt (it's cracking)

---With Water pump; Only allow this shop to do the timing belt IF he is
replacing all the cam/crank seals.

all drive belts
upper/lower radiator hoses (cracking)

plug wires

plugs
fuel filter
fuel injector cleaning service

-----Subies (like most vehicles) don't clog the injectors much

One non-routine thing is steep too:

all new premium ceramic brakepads, new rotors

Can the rotors be turned? Subaru reccomends a on-car lathe

*sigh* Anyone make me feel any better?

I think your jumping into more money than you need to spend




--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist
Currently working at a Subaru Dealership

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

 

[BobN]

Actually it seems to be more than that...involving some machine
delivering chemical cleaners to the system and sounds as though it
interfaces to a number of the parts of the system, cleaning the entire
fuel delivery system?

IMHO, that's a load of horse muffins.

 

[lkreh]

I've had most of the same work done on our 99 OBW (including water pump
while the t'belt was off, which I also strongly recommend), although it
was done piecemeal. I haven't tallied the receipts, but my costs were
comparable...and all of my work was done at Evanston Subaru. You could
analyze everything ad nauseum and maybe save a few bucks, but I like
proactivity, plus time is money.

 

[lkreh]

I've had most of the same work done on our 99 OBW (including water pump
while the t'belt was off, which I also strongly recommend), although it
was done piecemeal. I haven't tallied the receipts, but my costs were
comparable...and all of my work was done at Evanston Subaru. You could
analyze everything ad nauseum and maybe save a few bucks, but I like
proactivity, plus time is money.

 

[KLS]

I've had most of the same work done on our 99 OBW (including water pump
while the t'belt was off, which I also strongly recommend), although it
was done piecemeal. I haven't tallied the receipts, but my costs were
comparable...and all of my work was done at Evanston Subaru. You could
analyze everything ad nauseum and maybe save a few bucks, but I like
proactivity, plus time is money.

So true. We had an extended warranty on the used 1999 Legacy OBW
we're still driving that expired this past December. Back in the
summer, the oil pump seal went, IIRC, and I knew that to fix this
problem the mechanics would be in the timing belt area, so while the
extended warranty covered the labor and parts for the oil pump
rebuild, we paid just parts and a little extra labor to have the
timing belt and tensioner and waterpumpreplaced at the same time, at
87k miles, while the entire front end was open. We saved about $300
being proactive with this project. Yes, we did the work about 20k
miles "early," but we feel better about it.

 

[Todd H.]

I've had most of the same work done on our 99 OBW (including water pump
while the t'belt was off, which I also strongly recommend), although it
was done piecemeal. I haven't tallied the receipts, but my costs were
comparable...and all of my work was done at Evanston Subaru. You could
analyze everything ad nauseum and maybe save a few bucks, but I like
proactivity, plus time is money.

And a lot of it. The final damage was $2200. Just over a $1000 in
parts! Rounding off the pennies:

Parts
-----
front rotors 85 (premium)
front pads 97 (premium)
rear rotors 117 (premium)
rear pad 94 (premium)
belt 21
belt 2
fuel filter 45
timing belt 102
timing belt tensioner (out of spec, this car's 5th tensioner!) 143
trans fluid 18
spark plugs 10
radiator hoses 18, 16
5tqs 10w30 synth 28
plug wire set 66
brake fluid 9
brake cleaner 8
hose clamps 4
water pump 105
thermostat/gasket 21
cooling system conditioner 2
battery, installed 80 (when filled for load test found leaking, was
due anyway since it was original 2001)

Labor
------
cooilng flush labor 70
tranny flush labor 70
diff service fton/rear w/ fluid 140
fuel injection + air induction cleaning svc 162
brake fluid flush labor 80
timing belt, tensioner, water pump labor 325
plugs, wires, fuel filter labor 130
brake pad, rotor, adj parking brake labor 260
labor install radiator hoses clamps 65

Tossed in a $226 discount out of "holy crap, this job got big in a
hurry" compassion (I've been there on big computer jobs myself,
feeling for the client as more and more problems are uncovered).


In comparison, my local subie dealer would've been in the same
ballpark, interestingly. From an Arlington Heights subaru dealer::

Service level D (the biggie w/ all fluids, plugs incl timing belt
change) $860 dealer menu
Brakes and rotors, installed $730 dealer menu
Injector cleaning service $138 dealer menu
Timing belt tensioner part cost 143.65
Ac and drive belts 40?
Upper/lower hoses $23
Water pump parts 100?
OEM battery cost 80?
OEM plug wire set 40?
Tstat tstat housing 35?

Which puts us at $2190 before taxes they'd add, and I'm not sure I
have all the parts the my guy replaced that might be needed up there.
We also managed to get a $145 quote on the water pump when calling the
dealer, but I'm seeing $95 as an OEM MSRP at least one place. Not
sure what's up with that, or if there's another piece missing.

So a few summary lessons from my journey
o going 3rd party doesn't necessarily save ya money. This is
true of parts and labor apparently.
o extended warranty folks, complain about your timing belt
tensioner noise before the end of the warranty period, even
if it's just as noisy as you remember it from the day you
drove the last replaced one off the lot -- it may be out of
spec. I failed to make enough noise about mine and here I
was paying $150 to replace it, 5000 miles out of warranty.
o water pump was in bad shape at 105k, definitely a good call
to replace it.
o 2nd timing belt was already showing some cracking at 105k
despite a change at 60k.
o don't buy brake pads at Autozone. They'll cheerfully sell
you pads that fit on your vehicle, but aren't really
qualified for your vehicle (numbnuts sold me semi metallic
pads long ago when this vehicle requires ceramic)
o dont' schedule routine maintenance of this magnitude right
after christmas and year end contributions to children's
educational savings accounts.

Thanks to all that participated in the thread. Due to timing and
other issues, it was impossible to follow all the good advice
tendered.

Any courtesy of not following up and reiterating all the places I
could've saved money now that it's after the fact would be most
appreciated.

Best Regards,

 

[Edward Hayes]

Hi Todd: Glad to hear your set for another 100,000 miles. Keep up the
year to year maintenance though. Cheers & good driving. Ed Hayes

 

[Todd H.]

Hi Todd: Glad to hear your set for another 100,000 miles. Keep up the
year to year maintenance though. Cheers & good driving. Ed Hayes

Thanks Ed. SEe that makes me feel better. I guess it is nice not
to have the car feel like the wheels will vibrate off upon braking.

According to my new mechanic, evidently the last yahoos to have their
hands on my brakes didn't do anything with the rust on the shims,
didn't adjust the parking brake and didn't do any lubrication of the
pad guides, and hence the hanging up of the pads, the uneven wear.
He also found the rotors beyond runout specs but no way of knowing if
they were that way after the last people machined them, or if they
wore into that state from there. Given that last brake job was a
whopping 9 months ago, I have my suspicions.

Increases my confidence that I should do my own brakes again next
time (using factory pad/shim sets).

Best Regards,