entry level 2006 wagons (to replace Corolla wagon)

[jacklinthicum]

Thanks Carl, I have the car issue of Consumer Reports, but I haven't
looked at edmunds much yet, I will visit again.

Esmail

I am too lazy to look through the reponses to your original query but I
would point out that both Subaru models, all of them actually, are full
time four wheel drive. I lived in Northern Virginia and found the
Subaru performance in snow and ice to be superior to anything in a
similar price range. On snowy workdays I would simple back down the (25
degree) driveway and drive off. Neighbor is just getting his first part
of his drive shoveled off.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Agree

Some of the small cars 20 years ago were getting as god
of gas mileage as the small cars hitting market now!

How much more did they pollute 20 y a g ? How much more dangerous were
they? Particularly highway mileage is very much a function of drag - so
I understand how not much improvement can come there. 'City' mileage has
a lot to do with inertia, a lighter car would be best - but light cars
will have a hard time protecting the occupants from the kinds of
'intrusion' crash testing done now, and you need some torque to get
moving - that means some hp.
That's why the Prius does well at the city mileage - its practically
electric only, good torque and can recover energy when 'engine braking'
to put back in the batteries insted of making heat and brake dust. The
Prius is also good on the highway - but not that much better than some
gas-only cars.
An automobile is a series of compromises done within a government
controlled framework trying to get YOUR dollars instead of the
competition getting them.

Carl

 

[kaboom]

kaboom wrote:

Was the Jetta a wagon?

**No, it wasn't. The Jetta is/was a lovely car and I miss mine a lot.
I just didn't want to deal with some problems that cropped up, I
didn't have the time nor the money. If the new style Jetta comes in a
wagon, give it a whirl. Hmm, poking around, I'm not seeing a wagon
version yet (2006). Some people swear by the wagons because they're
built in Germany while the Jetta sedan is built in Mexico and the Golf
in Brazil.

However, like someone else mentioned edmunds.com is your best friend.
I always reference that site heavily when I'm doing research, that's
how I chose the Impreza. Also, read the forums at Edmunds, they're
handy, too.

kaboomie

 

[Body Roll]

I am too lazy to look through the reponses to your original query but I

would point out that both Subaru models, all of them actually, are full
time four wheel drive. I lived in Northern Virginia and found the
Subaru performance in snow and ice to be superior to anything in a
similar price range. On snowy workdays I would simple back down the (25
degree) driveway and drive off. Neighbor is just getting his first part
of his drive shoveled off.

I have to point out that some FWD (Civic Si and Neon SRT-4)
and RWD cars (RX-8) have LSD these days offering about the same amount
of traction baseline subaru would and not giving as much opportunities
to
the maintenance & towing luddites to screw up your driveline.

Not an option in this particular case though since none of them are
wagons.
Why is that? Automakers assume that wagon lovers are cheapskates or
morons?
Or there's no demand for some other reason?

I guess the answer is WRX with a center diff AND a clutch. It's bad it
does
not have the reflexes of a knife fighter. Well, traction is not
everything as
one C&D article succinctly put it.

 

[Body Roll]

How much more did they pollute 20 y a g ? How much more dangerous were
they? Particularly highway mileage is very much a function of drag - so
I understand how not much improvement can come there. 'City' mileage has

I googled up this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_drag

I would've never guessed that frontal area of 93 Impreza is so much
larger than
the frontal area of a 95 Legacy. Why is that?

Check out the entry for Hummer H2 :-D

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I googled up this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_drag

I would've never guessed that frontal area of 93 Impreza is so much
larger than
the frontal area of a 95 Legacy. Why is that?

Check out the entry for Hummer H2 :-D

Good find - was the legacy a lot smaller in '91??? Does the C&D formula
consider weight?

I dunno - odd

Carl

 

[Body Roll]

Good find - was the legacy a lot smaller in '91??? Does the C&D formula

Probably narrower, a bit shorter height-wise, longer length-wise.

consider weight?

Once you have a set speed acceleration is zero and weight is not a part
of the picture. Of course if you're in freeway in dense traffic as you
typically are these days then it's another story.

 

[me]

How much more did they pollute 20 y a g ? How much more dangerous were
they?

All good points and I agree

But still ....what happened to gas mileage over the
years?

 

[me]

An automobile is a series of compromises done within a government
controlled framework trying to get YOUR dollars instead of the
competition getting them.

Very true I agree

 

[Body Roll]

All good points and I agree

But still ....what happened to gas mileage over the
years?

It did not improve because
1) Customers did not care up until now. In fact the American customers
have been a BIG thorn in the side of Japanese automakers asking for
bigger
and bigger engines. Someone must be chuckling on the other side of
the pond now.

2) The curia in Washington DC did not tighten the rope against the
automaker's neck further
letting customers to vote with their wallets for whatever efficiency
they want.
I think this is very smart.

So you have more choice now that more sub 2 liter econoboxes are
shipped over here.
I won't be surprised if we see 1.2-1.4 liter from non US markets
engines showing up
as options in econocars for US a year from now if the >$3/gallon trend
continues.

Subaru is in the niche between econocars and entry level luxury cars
formerly occupied by midsize cars (I hope to see that segment die along
with Consumer Reports). If fuel economy is a priority shop elsewhere.

 

[Esmail Bonakdarian]

How would I put it politely?
Consumer Reports does not know a dick about cars.

I'll have to defer to you on this, I'm not an expert in cars,
or CR ...

It's no longer made.
Replaced by Mazda 3. Which is too midsizish for my taste.

ah .. thanks ..

How are car makers suppose to achive that? Suck required extra energy
out of
their thumbs?

Well, while I don't believe technology is always a cure-all, I am quite
confident that it would have been quite possible to improve on the gas
mileage of cars during the last 15 years. (In fact, just by chance,
NPR's All Things Considered had a whole 20 minute segment just on this
topic yesterday - the consensus being that this is not a technical
issue, but rather a political issue).

Gearing on impreza is messed up already.

How so?

At this point I'm looking at the Impreza 2.5i and the Ford Focus Wagon
as main choices. But still looking for more options.

Esmail

 

[Larry Van Wormer]

At this point I'm looking at the Impreza 2.5i and the Ford Focus Wagon
as main choices. But still looking for more options.

Both of those are good cars. I own and like the Impreza, and a friend
has owned a Focus wagon for several years, no real problems, plus lots
of room and good fuel economy. (If you don't need AWD and want good fuel
economy, likely stick to FWD...)

The Mazda 3 seems a nice car, I've test driven one of those. You might
consider looking at the hatchback version.

Larry Van Wormer

 

[Body Roll]

Well, while I don't believe technology is always a cure-all, I am quite
confident that it would have been quite possible to improve on the gas
mileage of cars during the last 15 years. (In fact, just by chance,
NPR's All Things Considered had a whole 20 minute segment just on this
topic yesterday - the consensus being that this is not a technical
issue, but rather a political issue).

That's one depressing radio station. Stop listening to it and your mood
would instantly improve.
The technology necessary to extract necessary performance from
low displacement engines adds a whole lot of complexity and expense:
http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/11213/mini-test-review-2006-volkswagen-golf-gt-page2.html

How so?

0-60 for 2.5 impreza is 8.3 sec
0-60 for 1.5 Honda fit is 8.7 sec
0-60 for 2.3 Mazda 3 is 7.2 seconds.

Do you see a problem here? Most displacement and yet the worst
acceleration time.
Good for the engine and powertrain longevity I suppose ==> such a pig
to drive though.

 

[Body Roll]

I'll have to defer to you on this, I'm not an expert in cars,
or CR ...

I'm not an expert either, that's why I deferred to smart and
knowledgeable
people who write for Car and Driver.

Well, while I don't believe technology is always a cure-all, I am quite
confident that it would have been quite possible to improve on the gas
mileage of cars during the last 15 years. (In fact, just by chance,
NPR's All Things Considered had a whole 20 minute segment just on this
topic yesterday - the consensus being that this is not a technical
issue, but rather a political issue).

I think the talk is cheap. Not sure what things were considered on
that show but I doubt that laymans'R Us have a slightest idea of what
it takes
to design and move into production an automotive engine, let alone a
car
as a whole. Were things like ease of maintenance considered? Evo guys
love to assert that WRX is a bitch to work on as it is. Now consider
what would happen
if you stick a turbo AND a supercharger into the already cramped
quarters of the engine bay.
I'm sure you mechanic would look forward to your service visits (let
alone shit hits
the fan and you'd need major engine work). Are there any love stories
from mechanics
servicing prius and other hybrids?
I think things like that are best left in the hopefully capable hands
of automotive designers.
They already have a shitload of limitations they have to work within.
Adding to the pile
of the requirements they have to satisfy just does not lead to elegant
automotive designs.

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

Actually, I just came back from Boulder, CO and the Outback seems to
be the state car!

I work in Boulder, live in Longmont. My husband and I like to play a
game at stoplights and in parking lots where we count the Subies.
Often at a light, I'm in a line of 3 or 4 in a row.

Anyway ... I have a 2004 Impreza WRX wagon. It's a lot of fun to
drive, has plenty of room for me to stuff a bicycle (front wheel
removed) or some skis in the back, and behaves well in nasty weather.
There are at least four of these wagons in my work parking lot (that's
not including sedan WRXs, Outbacks, etc).

Mileage is not so hot -- 23-25ish. Maybe would be better if most of
my driving weren't within Boulder city limits, and if I didn't have a
bike rack.

My main annoyance is that I feel like a slug as soon as I turn on the
A/C. Maybe the newer 2.5s are a little better in that department?

 

[Esmail Bonakdarian]

I work in Boulder, live in Longmont. My husband and I like to play a
game at stoplights and in parking lots where we count the Subies.
Often at a light, I'm in a line of 3 or 4 in a row.

Funny coincidence. I was there for BolderBoulder (I was impressed by
how well organized this was!) and I was staying with a good friend in
Longmont Had a great burger at the Pumphouse (?)

Yes, a dark green subaru, preferably with a cracked windshield seems
like a very "authentic" colorado car

Mileage is not so hot -- 23-25ish. Maybe would be better if most of
my driving weren't within Boulder city limits, and if I didn't have a
bike rack.

My main annoyance is that I feel like a slug as soon as I turn on the
A/C. Maybe the newer 2.5s are a little better in that department?

Hope so. Again, disappointed by the poor mileage after all these years.
Since I pretty much drove straight to Boulder from near Cleveland and
back a few weeks ago, I know that my 91 Corolla Wagon gets @ 36-37mpg
on the highway currently.

I'll be starting to test drive some cars this week ...

 

[jacklinthicum]

Funny coincidence. I was there for BolderBoulder (I was impressed by
how well organized this was!) and I was staying with a good friend in
Longmont Had a great burger at the Pumphouse (?)

Yes, a dark green subaru, preferably with a cracked windshield seems
like a very "authentic" colorado car


Hope so. Again, disappointed by the poor mileage after all these years.
Since I pretty much drove straight to Boulder from near Cleveland and
back a few weeks ago, I know that my 91 Corolla Wagon gets @ 36-37mpg
on the highway currently.

I'll be starting to test drive some cars this week ...

I didn't check the mileage on the only two long runs we have done in
the 95 Impreza wagon but the 99 Legacy can hang around 30 mpg on
interstates even in the 70-75mph range. As noted a lot depends on how
even traffic is, and, it would seem, the weather.
The sucker rolls and I'd love to get a dark green Roo to replace the
Legacy but it looks like dark blue this time.

 

[Body Roll]

Funny coincidence. I was there for BolderBoulder (I was impressed by
how well organized this was!) and I was staying with a good friend in
Longmont Had a great burger at the Pumphouse (?)

Yes, a dark green subaru, preferably with a cracked windshield seems
like a very "authentic" colorado car


Hope so. Again, disappointed by the poor mileage after all these years.

You have an option to buy a Chevrolet Aveo. The difference in price
between an Impreza and that contraption you would pay for many many
years
of gas supply and truck rental occasions when you actually do need
to hault stuff. It does not look as nice as Impreza but, then, it does
not look
as dorky as Echo either.
The there's a Suzuki Forenza. Neither of the two are nearly as good as
Impreza
but you'd save a lot in the car price to pay for gas. Which seems to be
one of your top priorities. I think Suzuki has a looong warranty.

 

[Blair Baucom]

You have an option to buy a Chevrolet Aveo. The difference in price
between an Impreza and that contraption you would pay for many many
years
of gas supply and truck rental occasions when you actually do need
to hault stuff. It does not look as nice as Impreza but, then, it does
not look
as dorky as Echo either.
The there's a Suzuki Forenza. Neither of the two are nearly as good as
Impreza
but you'd save a lot in the car price to pay for gas. Which seems to be
one of your top priorities. I think Suzuki has a looong warranty.

Suzuki Forenza gets an EPA estimated 22 city, 30 highway mpg. That is the
same range as the mileage I get in my Forester XS.

Suzuki Aerio only shows 25/31 mpg.

Impreza Sport Wagon lists 22/29 mpg.

Maybe Honda Fit at 33/38 mpg.

All of the above is with manual transmission.

Here is a list of all small wagons listing the mileage:

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/wgn-06.htm#smll

Blair

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

Funny coincidence. I was there for BolderBoulder (I was impressed by
how well organized this was!) and I was staying with a good friend
in Longmont Had a great burger at the Pumphouse (?)

The Pumphouse has pretty yummy wings, too, if you're into that.

Yes, a dark green subaru, preferably with a cracked windshield seems
like a very "authentic" colorado car

There's probably a sharp division between the Colorado of the
foothills/Rockies and eastern Colorado, which bears a striking
resemblance to Kansas ...

Hope so. Again, disappointed by the poor mileage after all these
years. Since I pretty much drove straight to Boulder from near
Cleveland and back a few weeks ago, I know that my 91 Corolla Wagon
gets @ 36-37mpg on the highway currently.

Well, for that kind of fuel efficiency, I get on my motorcycle =P

I'm not sure what my car gets highway. I think around 30. It's
pretty rare that I get a chance at unobstructed highway driving; the
winter I-70 drives to go skiing have too much traffic to be a good
comparison.