ABS pedal feel?

[houndman]

I'm not a fan of ABS, though I have little experience. The brakes on
my new 07' Impreza don't start grabbing till I am into the pedal a
bit, and today I had to stop fast, and the pedal went down and felt
mushy. I told the dealer to check it before I took the car, and they
said it was right. I'm used to a hard pedal that starts braking as
soon as I press on it, and feels hard. Maybe the pads are just hard,
but the brakes don't feel confidence inspiring.

The best pads I put on a car were cheap, and wore out in half the
miles that pads usually did, but grabbed the rotor So well, I had to
learn how to brake again. First time I had to stop short at speed,
because a new Vette stopped for an Long amber light on a highway, and
I didn't want to hit it, but I stopped 6 car lengths further back than
I usually would have with the amt of pressure on the pedal. Felt kinda
foolish, like I didn't know how to drive the 10yr old car with 140K on
it, but then I realized I was driving it Much faster than I usually
did, and the car had Great brakes, and realized it stopped So well
with the cheap pads, that they were making me More confident in the
stopping ability.

I plan to pull the fuse on the ABS, to see how the brakes work
without it, but want to learn the system before I do it. Doesn't seem
like that would affect where the pedal makes the brakes start to grab,
or give the pedal a more solid feel. I believe you need a Select
Monitor to open the valves in the system to bleed them, so going to
get complicated if I have to go to the dealer to have it done, unless
pulling the fuses changes that. They Already said they were right..

VF

 

[bigjimpack]

Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might
be engineering or design

 

[houndman]

Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might
be engineering or design

I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuum booster,
that causes the spongy feel, and flex brake lines that expand. Found
a single stage booster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in
newer Sube's.

VF

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuum booster,
that causes the spongy feel, and flex brake lines that expand. Found
a single stage booster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in
newer Sube's.

VF

I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
years down the line when the rubber was old.
Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS
will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
rotation - tires stop cars.


Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[Tony Hwang]

I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
years down the line when the rubber was old.
Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS
will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
rotation - tires stop cars.


Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Hi,
Also there is a kit to reinforce firewall behind master cylinder.

 

[houndman]

I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
years down the line when the rubber was old.
Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS
will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
rotation - tires stop cars.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

I had read about the stainless brake lines, but thought they would
only be needed, when Really getting on the Stop pedal.
Going to have to see if pulling the ABS fuses makes any difference.
Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm taking Subaru 101.))

Do many people have the same feeling about the brakes?

VF

 

[houndman]

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:






Hi,
Also there is a kit to reinforce firewall behind master cylinder.

Can the firewall be flexing That much?

VF

 

[houndman]

I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
years down the line when the rubber was old.
Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS
will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
rotation - tires stop cars.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Back in the 60's I ordered a car with over sized brakes without power
assist, because the assist made them too sensitive, and I wanted a
nice feel. That was back in the drum brake days. Ordered it without a
radio also, and the dealer called to double check. Also wanted to make
sure that I wanted black on a 69" Charger. When I had told the
salesmen I wanted to order a car, they said, they might have one in
stock. When I told them I wanted black with a black vinyl roof, they
said, You'll have to order that. When the movie Bullitt came out,
everyone thought I had seen the movie.

VF

 

[Stewart DIBBS]

Can the firewall be flexing That much?

Yes, its not uncommon, and this affects the brake feel because the flex
takes up some pedal movement. One reason for the spongy brake pedal is the
design decision to provide a certain amount of progressiveness for the
average (== semi-competent) driver. The smaller the master cyl diameter, the
further it has to be pushed to move the calipers/shoes. So the pedal travel
is large. Put in a larger diameter cyl and the travel is reduced, but the
progressiveness is reduced. Many drivers don't like and often can't handle
this. Others (like many reders of this NG) do like it and can handle it.

SD

 

[houndman]

Yes, its not uncommon, and this affects the brake feel because the flex
takes up some pedal movement. One reason for the spongy brake pedal is the
design decision to provide a certain amount of progressiveness for the
average (== semi-competent) driver. The smaller the master cyl diameter, the
further it has to be pushed to move the calipers/shoes. So the pedal travel
is large. Put in a larger diameter cyl and the travel is reduced, but the
progressiveness is reduced. Many drivers don't like and often can't handle
this. Others (like many reders of this NG) do like it and can handle it.

SD

Interesting... I may have to make More changes than I imagined, and
I imagined a lot. That's the curse of My Way.))

VF

 

[Uncle Ben]

You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me,
ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed,
weight and tires. It is a panic move! So I don't care how it feels,
looks, or sounds; I just want to stop!

The feeling of the vibrating brakes is something new, but when I am
desperate to stop, I just don't care!

Ben

 

[houndman]

You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me,
ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed,
weight and tires. It is a panic move! So I don't care how it feels,
looks, or sounds; I just want to stop!

The feeling of the vibrating brakes is something new, but when I am
desperate to stop, I just don't care!

Ben

Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage
is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher,
because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets
into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd
rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact.

My initial desire Was, to be able to Lock the brakes if I wanted to,
which a working ABS doesn't allow. Then reading about longer stopping
distances, I feel I want it it even less. I Would like to have it on
the rear brakes, since I had a Bad experience with rear wheels locking
up in a FWD car, before they learned about Fr/Rr proportioning, and
the rear locked up. I kept the car from spinning, but slid across the
opposite lane, and shoulder, and down a grass embankment, stopping 2'
from a 2' dia tree right next to me. I wasn't trying to avoid hitting
anything but an oncoming truck, that popped up, when trying to pass a
guy in a Camaro who wanted to race. Hitting the brakes lightly to slow
down, and turning the wheel to get back in the lane, was too much for
the vehicle.

I have taken risks over the years, but I was aware of them and they
were of my choosing, and I knew what the dangers were, so anticipated
them.

VF

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me,
ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed,
weight and tires.

That's not correct.

The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
control as it stops.

Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows
you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.
In other words, you can now steer around what you were going to hit,
or in the worst case, hit it straight on. Without ABS, you might get
sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance
of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over.

 

[houndman]

That's not correct.

The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
control as it stops.

Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows
you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.
In other words, you can now steer around what you were going to hit,
or in the worst case, hit it straight on. Without ABS, you might get
sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance
of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over.

I'd rather have more options than ABS gives, except maybe on the rear
wheels. I don't think it would have helped much on a glare ice down
hill off ramp from an interstate, with a car sideways at the bottom.
Reg brakes didn't help either, and steering was almost useless, but
inching over to ice crystals worked.

Sometimes being Able to stop isn't good. I was pretty proud of myself
when young, stopping for a light on a icy downhill street. Then I
heard a horn and got rear ended. Saw cars that hit each other pulled
over. The street wasn't a through street but a T, so the accidents
were probably all or mostly rear enders. After sliding through a red
light at an intersection, on an icy downhill street at 3AM, the next
day I was in a parking lot practicing skidding, and did for a few yrs
after, and taught or told anyone I taught how to drive, or was
leaning, to do that the first snow. Now I just do it before I get to
intersections, or on a street or road I question. I see what it takes
to lock the wheels, so I can adjust distances, and be prepared. On the
main street here in the city, parking is allowed in the center, and
people make U turns at open spaces. Had a nice one a few weeks ago, at
nite, in the rain, and a kid poked out from behind a van, not far
ahead, and there was a car next to me and behind, so no place to go.
That's when I like tires with good wet weather traction. Learned about
them when 17, and the new tires didn't have much.

The 4X4 off road guys don't seem to like ABS at all, and some mfg's
make it switchable, and owners of the ones that don't, want to at
least put in a switch, or pull the fuses.

VF

 

[GJ]

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid,
especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping
distance would be longer and uncontrolled.

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid,
especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping
distance would be longer and uncontrolled.

You got it half right.

Skidding wheels may or may not take longer to stop. It depends on the
surface.

I've heard it described as a tire under maximum stress can stop, turn
or drive, one at a time. Skidding wheels can't turn. 'nuff said.

 

[houndman]

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid,
especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping
distance would be longer and uncontrolled.

I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet,
not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to
grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I
have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it
grips in the rain, so I am cautious.


VF

 

[houndman]

You got it half right.

Skidding wheels may or may not take longer to stop. It depends on the
surface.

I've heard it described as a tire under maximum stress can stop, turn
or drive, one at a time. Skidding wheels can't turn. 'nuff said.

Would skidding be called, locked wheels on dirt snow or gravel, where
the plowing effect is said to help stopping over ABS, and is turning
the wheel turning on the axle, or steering?

I have read that ABS doesn't stop shorter even on glare ice.
It seems like there are many situations where one thing doesn't work
for all situations, and the Strange things that I have heard that ABS
can do, like releasing when a tire looses contact with the road,
because the wheel stopped spinning, and not braking again, till the
pedal is released and reapplied, or a friend telling me the pedal
kicked back, and knocked his foot off the pedal, makes me leery of the
technology.

VF

 

[houndman]

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid,
especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping
distance would be longer and uncontrolled.

I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet,
not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to
grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I
have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it
grips in the rain, so I am cautious.


VF

 

[ziggy99]

ABS can be calibrated at manufacture to be optimal for dirt/gravel
performance; it's set to a tighter tolerance so that a wheel can push
up a mound of gravel and this aids braking performance. This aspect
of braking is what experienced dirt drivers miss when moving to std
ABS.

(My Forester btw has EBD which is ABS per wheel which helps further.)

As for braided steel lines, they really only pay for themselves with
hard consistent braking, as in racing or rallying. Rubber lines heat
up under these conditions and become relatively spongy.