ABS and Highway Spinout!

[HeidiLaF]

Hello. My husband had an incident with my 1999 Forester yesterday. He
was in the right lane of the Maine turnpike going about 60 mph,
preparing to exit about a half mile away. He was cut off by a carful
of kids and swerved into the breakdown lane to avoid being hit by
them. The Forester then went into a spin and ended up *across the
turnpike* in the left travel lane facing oncoming traffic.

LUCKILY no one was hurt and miraculously, the three lanes of oncoming
traffic all stopped to let this mishap play out. He's still in Maine
and I don't know the full story of exactly when and how he
braked...and I plan to have the dealer thoroughly inspect the ABS
system when he returns (I bought the car used at 30K at which point I
was told the rear brakes were brand new, which in itself is curious.
This was a former lease vehicle in New York). I replaced the front
brakes at 45K and the master cylinder was replaced on recall at the
time I bought the car.

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

 

[George Adams]

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency?

Way too many variables here to make a determination about the ABS. You don't
even know all the details yourself.

Thank God your husband is OK, and get the braking system checked by a competent
mechanic ASAP. It does seem unusual that so much brake work was done on a car
with relatively low mileage.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

 

[Paul Pluzhnikov]

[...] swerved into the breakdown lane [...]

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency?

For all you know, he didn't even use brakes.

I certainly didn't when I had my spin-out 10 years ago under
similar conditions.

Cheers,

 

[Cathy7003]

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

1: CHECK THE CONDITION OF THE TIRES!

2: Wet roads at the time ?

I very much doubt it was ABS issue here. This sounds like a
clear cut case of hydroplaining or defective/worn tires.
Also what is the condition of the road at that place?
Oil or gas on the roadway? Runoff of mud from the
grass/land off the road? Slippery mud?

 

[Edward Hayes]

Or too low on tire pressure will contribute to this kind of situation.

 

[Jim Stewart]

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

As others have said, there's too many variables.
Regardless of all the technology, the car still
has to obey the laws of physics.

Something to think about is what exactly your
husband did to bring on the spin. I'm not trying
to point fingers, just give you some insight.

I assume that he made a hard turn to avoid the
other vehicle. If the spin started then, the
ABS had nothing to do with it. If he waited until
the car straightened out then braked hard, there
probably shouldn't have been a spin, but it's
impossible to know for sure.

What I suspect happend, however, is that he turned
hard and then braked hard in the turn. At that
point, the car could have been at just the limits
of traction and the initial lockup of the wheels,
caused by him applying the brakes, could have
initiated the spin. As you probably know, ABS
works by looking for wheel lockup then releasing
the brakes for an instant then repeating. At
least one wheel *must* lockup before the ABS
does anything and that might have been enough
to initiate the spin.

Hard turning and hard braking are not a good
combination except perhaps on a racetrack.

You said that you are very upset that your
husband lost control of the car. I suggest
that you and your husband take a performace
driving class. That way you can truly under-
stand how easy it is to lose control of a car
and how you can both recover from it and avoid
it.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but freeway
driving is dangerous. If you want to be
absolutely sure that it will never happen
again, keep your husband off the freeway

It sounds to me that all the other alternatives
to the spin were worse. The car got you through
it with about as minimal expense as possible.

 

[PaulW]

Hello. My husband had an incident with my 1999 Forester yesterday. He
was in the right lane of the Maine turnpike going about 60 mph,
preparing to exit about a half mile away. He was cut off by a carful
of kids and swerved into the breakdown lane to avoid being hit by
them. The Forester then went into a spin and ended up *across the
turnpike* in the left travel lane facing oncoming traffic.

LUCKILY no one was hurt and miraculously, the three lanes of oncoming
traffic all stopped to let this mishap play out. He's still in Maine
and I don't know the full story of exactly when and how he
braked...and I plan to have the dealer thoroughly inspect the ABS
system when he returns (I bought the car used at 30K at which point I
was told the rear brakes were brand new, which in itself is curious.
This was a former lease vehicle in New York). I replaced the front
brakes at 45K and the master cylinder was replaced on recall at the
time I bought the car.

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

This is an issue of mechanical grip, which is independent of the
sophistication of any vehicle's braking system or traction control system.
Mechanical grip is simply determined by how much friction is available
between the tires and the road, and it cannot be improved upon by any
vehicle system. You can have systems that improve traction on a variety of
terrain, you can improve suspension performance and you can improve weight
distribution... but all of these improvements rely solely on the amount of
mechanical grip available to the vehicle on whatever terrain at any given
moment. You can never increase the amount of mechanical grip... you can
only best utilize the available mechanical grip....

All this being said... it is very, very difficult to determine why the car
spun without having a huge amount of information.... you really have to be
at the site and have immediate access to the evidence to determine cause.
It is very likely that your husband will not correctly recount his actions
or responses at the moment of spin.... things happen very quickly on the
freeway.

Be gratefull, as I am sure you are, that your husband is ok. There is every
chance, as things stand right now, that some level of sophistication in the
vehicle saved your husband's life. There is no evidence, given the
information that you have, that some degree of vehicle malfunction either
introduced or contributed to the danger inherent in the situation.

PaulW.


..

 

[Henry Paul]

I would check the tires and then get better ones. I had a similar experience
in a Jeep Cherokee last winter. I was driving down a snowy road in 4x4 High
and all of a sudden started to swerve and then did a 360 before I got
stopped. Luckily it was a side street with no traffic at the time. I
replaced the tires right after that.

ABS and AWD are worthless if your rubber can't grip the road.

 

[Alan Peterman]

As a lot of track, autocross and other performance driving instruction has
taught me, a spin is nearly always due to braking during a turn. What happens
is that the weight transfers to the forward tires, and the unloaded and lighter
rear end then breaks loose and the car spins. The simple answer is to basically
NEVER brake hard, if at all, while turning. Get the car slowed before the turn,
or else try and claw through with power during the turn.

 

[CompUser]

Way too many variables here to make a determination about the ABS. You don't
even know all the details yourself.

Amen.

Try not to lose it reading some of the other
responses here, eh?

Most likely cause, given what you've listed,
would be driver overcorrection.

 

[Henry Paul]

On the Subarus I have noticed better performance in a tight turn if I
downshift just before the turn and accelerate through it. Maybe it is the
AWD, but it just seems to turn much tighter and handle better under
acceleration.

 

[Chris Phillipo]

Hello. My husband had an incident with my 1999 Forester yesterday. He
was in the right lane of the Maine turnpike going about 60 mph,
preparing to exit about a half mile away. He was cut off by a carful
of kids and swerved into the breakdown lane to avoid being hit by
them. The Forester then went into a spin and ended up *across the
turnpike* in the left travel lane facing oncoming traffic.

LUCKILY no one was hurt and miraculously, the three lanes of oncoming
traffic all stopped to let this mishap play out. He's still in Maine
and I don't know the full story of exactly when and how he
braked...and I plan to have the dealer thoroughly inspect the ABS
system when he returns (I bought the car used at 30K at which point I
was told the rear brakes were brand new, which in itself is curious.
This was a former lease vehicle in New York). I replaced the front
brakes at 45K and the master cylinder was replaced on recall at the
time I bought the car.

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

ABS can't help you with a car sliding sideways.

 

[HeidiLaF]

Hello. My husband had an incident with my 1999 Forester yesterday. He
was in the right lane of the Maine turnpike going about 60 mph,
preparing to exit about a half mile away. He was cut off by a carful
of kids and swerved into the breakdown lane to avoid being hit by
them. The Forester then went into a spin and ended up *across the
turnpike* in the left travel lane facing oncoming traffic.

LUCKILY no one was hurt and miraculously, the three lanes of oncoming
traffic all stopped to let this mishap play out. He's still in Maine
and I don't know the full story of exactly when and how he
braked...and I plan to have the dealer thoroughly inspect the ABS
system when he returns (I bought the car used at 30K at which point I
was told the rear brakes were brand new, which in itself is curious.
This was a former lease vehicle in New York). I replaced the front
brakes at 45K and the master cylinder was replaced on recall at the
time I bought the car.

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

Hi, thanks everyone for the insights, I have an appt. to bring it into
the dealer in a week and get everything checked. Roads were dry but my
husband (who along with the Forester is now safely home!) swerved into
the breakdown lane to avoid a collision. He thinks he swerved and then
breaked which put the spin in motion. As I said they were going about
60 which to my understanding is fast enough to make bad things
happen... Anyway I'm going to take my car into a parking lot and make
sure the antilock brakes are deploying... I don't think I'll be taking
the precision driving lessons though thanks for the suggestion, Jim.
I AM grateful the car didn't flip and therefore contributed to
keeping my husband and his sister alive!

 

[TG]

I think the car was innocent. ABS will not prevent a spin and is not
intended to. I personally prefer the lower center of gravity offered by the
Subaru Legacy because it handles MUCH better than the forrester. Tall
vehicles with lots of ground clearance handle poorly, look at the skidpad
numbers. TG

 

[Waldo]

Hi, thanks everyone for the insights, I have an appt. to bring it into
the dealer in a week and get everything checked. Roads were dry but my
husband (who along with the Forester is now safely home!) swerved into
the breakdown lane to avoid a collision. He thinks he swerved and then
breaked which put the spin in motion. As I said they were going about
60 which to my understanding is fast enough to make bad things
happen... Anyway I'm going to take my car into a parking lot and make
sure the antilock brakes are deploying... I don't think I'll be taking
the precision driving lessons though thanks for the suggestion, Jim.
I AM grateful the car didn't flip and therefore contributed to
keeping my husband and his sister alive!

Please make sure you have good tires in good condition and that they are
properly inflated. You would be amazed at how much difference they can make.
-rick-

 

[Ed P]

Hi, thanks everyone for the insights, I have an appt. to bring it into
the dealer in a week and get everything checked. Roads were dry but my
husband (who along with the Forester is now safely home!) swerved into
the breakdown lane to avoid a collision. He thinks he swerved and then
breaked which put the spin in motion. As I said they were going about
60 which to my understanding is fast enough to make bad things
happen... Anyway I'm going to take my car into a parking lot and make
sure the antilock brakes are deploying... I don't think I'll be taking
the precision driving lessons though thanks for the suggestion, Jim.
I AM grateful the car didn't flip and therefore contributed to
keeping my husband and his sister alive!

Another contributing factor: the breakdown lane, or shoulder, often has
gravel, dirt, bits of tire, and other debris which make for very poor
tire adhesion for either braking or steering.

Ed P

 

[Ross]

On the Subarus I have noticed better performance in a tight turn if I
downshift just before the turn and accelerate through it. Maybe it is the
AWD, but it just seems to turn much tighter and handle better under
acceleration.

In my experience my WRX likes to understeer just shade under hard 1st 2nd
and 3rd gear power, It starts to get neutral at 90 odd and would prolly
oversteer above (No STI wing to pin the back end down and all that). The
understeer progressively turns to oversteer as you get faster.

It oversteers slightly going into the corner on idle up to about 50 and is
easy to correct (by hitting the accelerator) after about 50 it starts
getting a bit more pronounced and opposite lock along with some gas might be
needed!

It absolutely hates it when you brake when cornering hard (even lightly
before abs gets a sniff of a lockup) this causes her to start oversteering
all over the place due to the shift of weight (And grip) from the back to
the front. I was cornering hard at about 70 and encountered an obstacle and
stupidly dabbed the brake lightly. I hit lock both sides before I got her
back in line!!! I then drove home at 40 mulling over my new found respect
for the laws of physics!!!

All these characteristics can be made worse by poor tyre setups, prolly the
most dangerous is new tyres on the front and old on the back which would
make the oversteer lethal under simualtaneous cornering and braking.

I suspect the hubby of the original poster turned hard then braked. This
being the instinctual (but wrong) thing to do. thus causing the car to spin.
Subaru AWD cars will corner beyond most peoples own limits of fear, you just
need to learn what to do when you go past your own limits this usually
involves concentrating very hard on NOT doing what your instincts tell you
and doing what your head tells you.

Ross

 

[CompUser]

$(e-mail address removed)>,
(e-mail address removed) says...

It absolutely hates it when you brake when cornering hard (even lightly
before abs gets a sniff of a lockup) this causes her to start oversteering
all over the place due to the shift of weight (And grip) from the back to
the front. I was cornering hard at about 70 and encountered an obstacle and
stupidly dabbed the brake lightly. I hit lock both sides before I got her
back in line!!! I then drove home at 40 mulling over my new found respect
for the laws of physics!!!

Heh...I had same experience coming around a bend
at about 70 one night, to find a possum trotting
across the road. In very rapid succession I
found myself closing on the ditches on BOTH sides
of the road ;-)

 

[S]

Hi All!

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

I'll toss in another tidbit for the groups consideration.
If something jumps in front of you, your best bet is to hit it. Sure,
tromp on those brakes, scrub speed, stop if there's room, but don't
swerve, don't swerve, DON'T SWERVE!!! Try to hit the offending object
dead center, with your car traveling straight. Let your bumper and
frame absorb the force of impact, and trust to your seat belts and air
bag systems to protect you; this is _exactly_ the scenario where they
are designed to work best.
This is counter-intuative, but any other action can, potentially,
cause your car to spin into oncoming traffic with horrendous results,
or into the ditch, usually resulting in a roll-over. Even a partial
spin that results in hitting something off center is far more likely
to cause injuries to you and your passengers than a straight frontal
impact.
As to the _other_ object . . . er, sorry.
I pound this into my teenaged drivers until I'm sure they're sick of
hearing it, but it really is a potential life saver.


ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[GW De Lacey]

Hi All!



I'll toss in another tidbit for the groups consideration.
If something jumps in front of you, your best bet is to hit it. Sure,
tromp on those brakes, scrub speed, stop if there's room, but don't
swerve, don't swerve, DON'T SWERVE!!! Try to hit the offending object
dead center, with your car traveling straight. Let your bumper and
frame absorb the force of impact, and trust to your seat belts and air
bag systems to protect you; this is _exactly_ the scenario where they
are designed to work best.
This is counter-intuative, but any other action can, potentially,
cause your car to spin into oncoming traffic with horrendous results,
or into the ditch, usually resulting in a roll-over. Even a partial
spin that results in hitting something off center is far more likely
to cause injuries to you and your passengers than a straight frontal
impact.
As to the _other_ object . . . er, sorry.
I pound this into my teenaged drivers until I'm sure they're sick of
hearing it, but it really is a potential life saver.

I really think ALL drivers should be taught to drive properly. The
above is simplistic and dangerous BS, if you ask me (I know, you
aren't). Sure, under some circumstances, it's probably correct to
steer straight toward an obstacle, but that situation is rare. Under
most circumstances, the instinctive reaction (to avoid hitting the
obstacle) is also (surprise surprise) the correct one. Where most
people come unstuck is in knowing the correct actions to take that
will result in avoiding the obstacle, and that's where educators
should be concentrating their efforts.