2008 Outback: Sport Shift or Manual?

[mercator32]

I am looking into buying a 2008 Subaru Outback and am wavering between
a manual transmission or the Sportshift transmission. I have been a
Loyale owner for 14 years and like the feel and control of driving a
manual, but the sport shift is pretty nice too. I'd love to find a
comparative analysis of the two transmissions in terms of life-of-car
maintenance costs and performance. Obviously the manual transmission
car comes in about 1k cheaper, but I'm replacing the clutch a few
times, that kills the up-front discount. What are the maintenance
issues with the auto transmission/sport shift?

On another note, I am considering a Partial Zero Emissions (PZEV)
version of the Outback to do my part for the planet. Has anyone had
problems with these? Does the added emissions control affect
performance?

I would very much appreciate any thoughtful feedback.

Tnx.

 

[David Ryeburn]

Obviously the manual transmission
car comes in about 1k cheaper, but I'm replacing the clutch a few
times, that kills the up-front discount.

Don't forget that automatic transmissions can have maintenance expenses, too.

I've had three Subarus, all with 5 speed manual transmissions -- a 1988 GL
4x4 wagon, a 1997 Legacy Outback, and a 2007 Legacy Outback. Here's the
clutch repair history for the three.

I gave the 1988 Sube to my older daughter and her husband at 246,000 km
instead of accepting CDN $ 1500 for it as a trade-in on the 1997 Outback.
They put about 100,000 km more on it. Then they gave it to my younger
daughter and her husband, who soon replaced the clutch for the first time.
(They later gave it away to a friend at 409,000 km when they went to Eritrea
for two years.)

I replaced the clutch in the 1997 Outback at about 290,000 km when that
otherwise very nice vehicle decided it was time to develop the ailment to
which DOHC 2.5 L engines of that era were prone (blown head gasket). While
it was apart, it made sense to replace the clutch although that could have
been postponed a bit. But I decided to do it then, since I knew I would soon
be buying the 2007 Outback and giving the 1997 to my younger daughter when
her family returned from Eritrea, and the clutch replacement expense would
mean a lot more to them than to me. By the time they returned it had 307,000
km on it.

The 2007 Outback of course has its original clutch, and I expect in 10 years
or so when I give it to my older daughter and her husband, it still will
have it.

If you rev-match when shifting gears, wear on the clutch is negligible. The
real wear comes when using first gear, starting from a stop. Learn to do
that efficiently, and rev-match as best you can when downshifting. When
driving in the mountains downshifting a manual transmission car is more than
just a good idea. it can be a life insurance policy. I even downshift a lot
in the city (and on more than one occasion, the instantly available torque
from the lower gear has gotten me out of trouble someone else was setting up
for me). If you drive in Vancouver, BC, you'll understand that last
sentence. Perhaps because I downshift more than a lot of people do, the
front brake pads in the 2007 Outback didn't need to be replaced until about
240,000 km.

Anyway, manual transmissions are a lot more fun than automatics!

David, whose first and last automatic transmission car was a 1971 Chevelle
wagon bought when I was about half as old as I am now

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I've owned exactly one automatic in my life (the auto was a "no choice"
item), all the rest of my vehicles were sticks, either because that's
all that was available, or what I chose as an option. The auto I have is
a Toyota electronic 4-spd (ok, 3 and OD) that seems to have as many
buttons as the sound system. Calling it a PITA would be kind: it seems I
do as much "work" punching buttons TRYING to get it do do WHAT I want it
to, WHEN I want it to, as just shifting a manual and knowing for sure!
Then there's the fuel economy issue... out on the highway, the auto will
match a stick for mileage. Around town, advantage stick. Generally by a
LOT.

Each person's experiences w/ clutches will be different. I had one in a
brand new car go out in 20k miles (improper adjustment from the factory,
dealer said it was "ok.") I've also had one go 300k miles and change.
But as a "general rule" I'd say my clutches probably get replaced about
the same time many people I know w/ autos are looking at having some
serious work done on them. Cost of the clutches has been far less, both
from a parts standpoint, and because I have been able to do the work--so
far, at least!

I'd drive both and see how the Sport Shift works even before looking at
the downline costs. If you don't like it straightaway, you'll be "living
w/ it" for quite a while...

Rick

 

[houndman]

I am looking into buying a 2008 Subaru Outback and am wavering between
a manual transmission or the Sportshift transmission. I have been a
Loyale owner for 14 years and like the feel and control of driving a
manual, but the sport shift is pretty nice too. I'd love to find a
comparative analysis of the two transmissions in terms of life-of-car
maintenance costs and performance. Obviously the manual transmission
car comes in about 1k cheaper, but I'm replacing the clutch a few
times, that kills the up-front discount. What are the maintenance
issues with the auto transmission/sport shift?

On another note, I am considering a Partial Zero Emissions (PZEV)
version of the Outback to do my part for the planet. Has anyone had
problems with these? Does the added emissions control affect
performance?

I would very much appreciate any thoughtful feedback.

Tnx.

You said you like the feel and control of a manual, which is what
most of us like about them. I didn't have a stick for 25yrs, and
missed them. I live in a big city, and have been waiting to move to
the country to get a new car, which definetly was going to be a stick,
but because of limitations from an injury, mental and physical, I
haven't moved. Years kept passing, and I'm still driving an older
auto. and kept thinking that I wanted a stick. I finally got motivated
and bought an 07' Impreza wagon 5M. Not driving one for So long, and
my limitations makes driving like work, I was getting a workout having
to use my left arm and leg more, and the steering is a little harder
than my other car. I've had to try to make the Sube more comfortable
for me, since the ride was too rough on choppey city streets, even in
the base model, and the shifter was hard getting out of 1st for a
while, but me and the car are adjusting. Having to stop at almost
every corner or for traffic, makes for a Lot of shifting, and for
short trips I use my old auto. It is easier, and would be nice if I
could choose tranny's, but if I had to choose just one, it would be
the stick.

I'd drive the sportshift as much as you can, in all types of
situations, to see if you will be satisfied.

VF

 

[houndman]

Don't forget that automatic transmissions can have maintenance expenses, too.

I've had three Subarus, all with 5 speed manual transmissions -- a 1988 GL
4x4 wagon, a 1997 Legacy Outback, and a 2007 Legacy Outback. Here's the
clutch repair history for the three.

I gave the 1988 Sube to my older daughter and her husband at 246,000 km
instead of accepting CDN $ 1500 for it as a trade-in on the 1997 Outback.
They put about 100,000 km more on it. Then they gave it to my younger
daughter and her husband, who soon replaced the clutch for the first time.
(They later gave it away to a friend at 409,000 km when they went to Eritrea
for two years.)

I replaced the clutch in the 1997 Outback at about 290,000 km when that
otherwise very nice vehicle decided it was time to develop the ailment to
which DOHC 2.5 L engines of that era were prone (blown head gasket). While
it was apart, it made sense to replace the clutch although that could have
been postponed a bit. But I decided to do it then, since I knew I would soon
be buying the 2007 Outback and giving the 1997 to my younger daughter when
her family returned from Eritrea, and the clutch replacement expense would
mean a lot more to them than to me. By the time they returned it had 307,000
km on it.

The 2007 Outback of course has its original clutch, and I expect in 10 years
or so when I give it to my older daughter and her husband, it still will
have it.

If you rev-match when shifting gears, wear on the clutch is negligible. The
real wear comes when using first gear, starting from a stop. Learn to do
that efficiently, and rev-match as best you can when downshifting. When
driving in the mountains downshifting a manual transmission car is more than
just a good idea. it can be a life insurance policy. I even downshift a lot
in the city (and on more than one occasion, the instantly available torque
from the lower gear has gotten me out of trouble someone else was setting up
for me). If you drive in Vancouver, BC, you'll understand that last
sentence. Perhaps because I downshift more than a lot of people do, the
front brake pads in the 2007 Outback didn't need to be replaced until about
240,000 km.

Anyway, manual transmissions are a lot more fun than automatics!

David, whose first and last automatic transmission car was a 1971 Chevelle
wagon bought when I was about half as old as I am now

When you say "Rev Match", do you mean shifting without the clutch, or
shifting where there is no jerking in the car when shifting? I used to
shift other cars without the clutch, getting the engine to the right
speed where the gears just engaged. I did it on a test drive of a
Sube, to show the sales girl I was dealing with, who didn't know how
to drive a stick, and was White when she would pull one from the lot
for me to test drive, that they weren't the Monsters she was told they
were by other salespeople. People she asked who drove them told her
what I did, they were more fun, with better control.

I shifted one without the clutch to show her, and the 2nd time I
ground the gears, and not being a color I was interested, so not
planing to buy it, I didn't do it again. Haven't tried with my own
yet. Too many distractions to even think about it, but was wondering
if AWD or being a 5sp might make things a bit different in shifting
without the clutch. I did have an issue with it hard shifting from 1st
to 2nd, so the revs dropped off too far for even a smooth shift,
though that is getting easier. Getting the Feel of where the gears
were, so I didn't shift into 2nd, when trying for 4th made me
hesitant, trying to do anything else, and I haven't had a stick for
25yrs.

I'm in a big city with lights and stop signs at Every intersection,
so doing a Lot of shifting when in the city, which isn't where I drive
the car much, but with all that shifting, the clutch is getting a
workout. I started trying 1st t to 3rd as getting out of 1st got
easier, but that adds another thing to remember. LOL.. I had brain and
muscle damage from an injury, and this Sube is continuing my physical
and cognitive therapy.((

VF

 

[Rick Courtright]

When you say "Rev Match", do you mean shifting without the clutch, or
shifting where there is no jerking in the car when shifting? I used to

Hi,

"Rev matching" is relatively self-explanatory: you simply ensure the
engine revs pretty well match the required speed in the next gear when
the clutch is released. Upshifting, this means holding the throttle as
required so the revs DON'T drop excessively between gears as you and
many others have complained of (generally a dead giveaway the driver's
NOT as stick-competent as he might believe.) Properly done, the engine
won't cause the car to "lurch" or "jump" when the clutch is released
after the shift.

Downshifting, it means raising the engine's revs so that when the clutch
is released, it's already at the proper range and the engine doesn't
have to suddenly "race" to catch up. There are several techniques,
either "single" or "double" clutching, depending on the gearbox and
whether braking's also required (the need for "true" double-clutching
pretty much went the way of the dodo w/ unsynchronized "crash box"
gearboxes.) Most people who "think" they're double-clutching are just
making noise, "blipping" the throttle uselessly in between the shift.
Watching the rev counter's one good way to know if you're acting
effectively or just making noise.

Whichever way you're going, up or down in the pattern, "rev matching" is
an interactive practice that requires use of the throttle foot during
the shift sequence. A truly skillful driver should be able to make most
shifts such that they're never "felt" by the passengers, as opposed to
the neck jerking experiences we've probably all been subjected to...

Shifting w/o a clutch? Might be a good skill to know for the day you've
broken a clutch cable or lost hydraulic pressure, but just how often
does either of those events present itself in everyday life? And when
one does, remember the joys of trying to start from a dead stop w/o use
of your clutch! Otherwise, for most people and most of today's
gearboxes, it's probably just abuse.

Rick

 

[houndman]

Hi,

"Rev matching" is relatively self-explanatory: you simply ensure the
engine revs pretty well match the required speed in the next gear when
the clutch is released. Upshifting, this means holding the throttle as
required so the revs DON'T drop excessively between gears as you and
many others have complained of (generally a dead giveaway the driver's
NOT as stick-competent as he might believe.) Properly done, the engine
won't cause the car to "lurch" or "jump" when the clutch is released
after the shift.

Downshifting, it means raising the engine's revs so that when the clutch
is released, it's already at the proper range and the engine doesn't
have to suddenly "race" to catch up. There are several techniques,
either "single" or "double" clutching, depending on the gearbox and
whether braking's also required (the need for "true" double-clutching
pretty much went the way of the dodo w/ unsynchronized "crash box"
gearboxes.) Most people who "think" they're double-clutching are just
making noise, "blipping" the throttle uselessly in between the shift.
Watching the rev counter's one good way to know if you're acting
effectively or just making noise.

Whichever way you're going, up or down in the pattern, "rev matching" is
an interactive practice that requires use of the throttle foot during
the shift sequence. A truly skillful driver should be able to make most
shifts such that they're never "felt" by the passengers, as opposed to
the neck jerking experiences we've probably all been subjected to...

Shifting w/o a clutch? Might be a good skill to know for the day you've
broken a clutch cable or lost hydraulic pressure, but just how often
does either of those events present itself in everyday life? And when
one does, remember the joys of trying to start from a dead stop w/o use
of your clutch! Otherwise, for most people and most of today's
gearboxes, it's probably just abuse.

Rick

Had to double clutch when driving trucks in the service.

Don't remember rev matching, but always liked to shift smoothly, up
and down, except maybe in an emergency situation, and then, whatever
it takes to avoid an accident is accepted, so maybe did it without
thinking.

If a trans in binding coming out of a gear, it is hard to tell when
it will release to do anything with the revs.

Shifting without the clutch shifts so easily when done right, that
it doesn't seem like it would be abusing anything. The trans will slip
right into gear with minimal pressure on the stick. I remember using 2
fingers. Used to feel easier than when using the clutch. Maybe the
syncros didn't have to do much.

I have 2 nephews who like sticks, and one had to get rid of his
because his wife said it made her nauseas. I asked if He didn't shift
smooth, but it was when She drove it. Guess she didn't know how to
drive one.

VF

VF

 

[houndman]

Hi,

"Rev matching" is relatively self-explanatory: you simply ensure the
engine revs pretty well match the required speed in the next gear when
the clutch is released. Upshifting, this means holding the throttle as
required so the revs DON'T drop excessively between gears as you and
many others have complained of (generally a dead giveaway the driver's
NOT as stick-competent as he might believe.) Properly done, the engine
won't cause the car to "lurch" or "jump" when the clutch is released
after the shift.

Downshifting, it means raising the engine's revs so that when the clutch
is released, it's already at the proper range and the engine doesn't
have to suddenly "race" to catch up. There are several techniques,
either "single" or "double" clutching, depending on the gearbox and
whether braking's also required (the need for "true" double-clutching
pretty much went the way of the dodo w/ unsynchronized "crash box"
gearboxes.) Most people who "think" they're double-clutching are just
making noise, "blipping" the throttle uselessly in between the shift.
Watching the rev counter's one good way to know if you're acting
effectively or just making noise.

Whichever way you're going, up or down in the pattern, "rev matching" is
an interactive practice that requires use of the throttle foot during
the shift sequence. A truly skillful driver should be able to make most
shifts such that they're never "felt" by the passengers, as opposed to
the neck jerking experiences we've probably all been subjected to...

Shifting w/o a clutch? Might be a good skill to know for the day you've
broken a clutch cable or lost hydraulic pressure, but just how often
does either of those events present itself in everyday life? And when
one does, remember the joys of trying to start from a dead stop w/o use
of your clutch! Otherwise, for most people and most of today's
gearboxes, it's probably just abuse.

Rick

Was trying to remember starting without a clutch. Know I have done
it. Then remembered the time a clutch release lever broke 30mi from
home at 3AM. Starter motor got a good workout starting from lights.
That wasn't as bad as driving back from a dog show near NYC, in NJ
with no hydraulic brakes. Only got worried twice. Coming around a
circle with a mint 49' Chrysler Town & Country in my way, and then a
bike rider between me and a Long dumpster, coming down Broad St in
Philly, in traffic heavy traffic coming back from the shore. The
emergency brake Doesn't stop very fast, and have to keep the release
lever out. Had 2 hounds breathing down my neck, and that was 3 weeks
after becoming disabled. I blew a stop sign in the park where the show
was, right in front of a cop, who stopped me. They let me go when they
found out the brakes had gone, and I told them I was going to the gas
station outside the park, I had stopped at to get directions on the
way there, which was closing when I stopped. The cops didn't see me
turn the opposite way on my adventure.

VF



VF

VF

 

[suburboturbo]

I am looking into buying a 2008 Subaru Outback and am wavering between
a manual transmission or the Sportshift transmission.  I have been a
Loyale owner for 14 years and like the feel and control of driving a
manual, but the sport shift is pretty nice too.  I'd love to find a
comparative analysis of the two transmissions in terms of life-of-car
maintenance costs and performance. Obviously the manual transmission
car comes in about 1k cheaper, but I'm replacing the clutch a few
times, that kills the up-front discount. What are the maintenance
issues with the auto transmission/sport shift?

On another note, I am considering a Partial Zero Emissions (PZEV)
version of the Outback to do my part for the planet. Has anyone had
problems with these?  Does the added emissions control affect
performance?

I would very much appreciate any thoughtful feedback.

Tnx.

I'm a die-hard shift-for-myself driver and , of the

 

[suburboturbo]

I am looking into buying a 2008 Subaru Outback and am wavering between
a manual transmission or the Sportshift transmission.  I have been a
Loyale owner for 14 years and like the feel and control of driving a
manual, but the sport shift is pretty nice too.  I'd love to find a
comparative analysis of the two transmissions in terms of life-of-car
maintenance costs and performance. Obviously the manual transmission
car comes in about 1k cheaper, but I'm replacing the clutch a few
times, that kills the up-front discount. What are the maintenance
issues with the auto transmission/sport shift?

On another note, I am considering a Partial Zero Emissions (PZEV)
version of the Outback to do my part for the planet. Has anyone had
problems with these?  Does the added emissions control affect
performance?

I would very much appreciate any thoughtful feedback.

Tnx.

Over the last 15 years my wife and I have owned 10 new cars and SUVs,
6 manual transmission cars and 4 automatics.
including 4 Subarus. We currently have a 2004 WRX 5 speed stick and a
2005 Outback 3.0 with an automatic. A die-hard stick and clutch
driver, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Outback and our
previous Infiniti G35, both with sequential manual gear selectors,
provided much more control and driver involvement than any other
automatics I've had. The G35 was a better match-up of engine and
transmission, with tons of torque and pretty crisp shifts. The
Outback, loaded with leather and most of the luxury options, isn't
quite as lively, but makes up for it with versatility, AWD, cargo
capacity. The auto-stick allows enough control to keep it
interesting. I'm thinking of selling the WRX, the wife gets another
G35 (she adored the car) and I can live with the Outback.

All that said, I don't think I'd ever consider doing this if the car
had the 2.5. The base engine, although warmed up over the last couple
of years is underpowered for a 3400+ lb Outback, especially with an
automatic. The other option is the XT, but from my experience, turbos
and automatics get along together about as well as cats and dogs.
Don't get too hung up on the maintenance cost differential; automatics
need love. Subaru calls for fluid replacement under severe service
every 24k miles.

 

[alf]

Hi,

I am driving 2002 Outback 2.5 MT and only thing is missing is 6th gear.
3750 RPM @ 75 MPH is very high - the small Impreza 2002 2.5 TS with auto
needs 3250 to maintain that speed. Anybody get data for 2008 Outback
and Outback Turbo?

IIRC some 2002 Subaru MT suffered from clutch slip at cold temps issues.
Subaru replaced the clutch under warranty in my car.

A.