special burping gear?

[glasceus]

is there any special gear out there to burp a radiator, i remember
reading a post where a guy said his mechanic hooked up the brake
bleeding pump to his radiator. do u guys know of any special radiator
bleeding gear that can take the heartache out of bleeding the air out
of this forester coolant? thanks

 

[Rick Courtright]

bleeding pump to his radiator. do u guys know of any special radiator
bleeding gear that can take the heartache out of bleeding the air out
of this forester coolant? thanks

Hi,

I use a coffee pot.

Here's how it works:

Put on a pot of coffee. While it's brewing, fill the radiator if
necessary (i.e, if you've just drained it), leaving the radiator cap
off, or just take the radiator cap off if it's already full. Start the
engine. The car should be level, or pointed slightly uphill to ensure
the filler neck of the radiator's the highest point in the cooling
system. Some put it on ramps, though I've not achieved any better
results on ramps than w/ wheels on ground. While engine warms up, check
coffee. It should be about ready.

Turn heater to full on ("Hi") position, rev engine to maybe 1500-2000
rpm for a minute or so. Let it idle back down while getting a cup of
coffee. Turn off engine and let cool while enjoying the coffee. When the
cup's empty, refill it or go read the paper or do something while the
engine cools more. If coolant has splashed out on the ground, this is a
good time to hose it down so your dog or cat doesn't come out and take a
big slurp of it. If your neighborhood environmentalist starts having a
fit about coolant on the ground, it's a good time to hose him down, too.
(Get him good: you want to make it worth your while in case he files an
assault charge on you!)

Once the engine's relatively cooled off, the coolant level in the
radiator MAY have dropped some. Top off as necessary and start the
engine. While it idles and warms up, get another cup of coffee. When the
engine's up to normal temp again, rev it to 2500-3000 rpm for a few
seconds, let it idle down, repeat a coupla times. You'll probably have a
fair amount of splash on the ground. While the engine idles a couple
more minutes, hose down any additional splashed coolant. If your
neighborhood environmentalist type is still having a fit, hose him down
a second time. Shut the engine off, let it cool again, enjoy the rest of
that cup of coffee and find something else to do for a while.

When the engine's relatively cool again, check and top off the coolant
as required, then repeat the above procedure. After doing this, shut the
engine off and let sit until really cool. The coolant will probably be
low in the radiator, so fill it until it's about an inch below the
filler neck. If you don't have that inch of free space, a kitchen baster
can be used to siphon some coolant off into the overflow tank. Put the
cap on. Fill the overflow reservoir a bit over the "max" mark--about the
same amount the radiator is underfilled.

Go have another cup of coffee, shut off the coffee pot if it's still on,
then go for a short ride. Keep the heater on "Hi" (note that many Subies
have a constant flow heating system, so coolant flows even when the
heater's off, but putting it on "Hi" ensures both good flow and I've
been told the bit of cooling in the heater core MAY help relieve
bubbles. That sounds far fetched to me, though!) Come back, let the car
sit and cool completely, and check the overflow reservoir. Top off as
necessary. Check it again daily for three or four days, topping off as
required.

While some of this probably sounds facetious, the point of the drill is
to NOT get in a hurry, AND, by not doing this operation in haste, to
allow any trapped air to actually move out of the engine/heater areas
INTO the radiator. Bubbles can be trapped easily if the system is simply
filled and capped right away. They HAVE to have a place to go and you
WILL generally make some kind of a mess getting them all out. You'll be
able to get most of 'em out while you've got the radiator cap off, and
leaving an air space in the radiator will help the rest escape (those
greybeards here who remember "pre-overflow reservoir" systems will
recall they usually had a couple of inches of "free" space in the top of
the radiator for expansion, and also had relatively few trapped air
problems compared to today's cars.)

Give these methods a try, and I think you'll find properly filling your
cooling system's neither magical nor difficult. But it does sometimes
take a while. Hope you enjoy your coffee!

Rick

 

[Michael Pardee]

If coolant has splashed out on the ground, this is a
good time to hose it down so your dog or cat doesn't come out and take a
big slurp of it. If your neighborhood environmentalist starts having a
fit about coolant on the ground, it's a good time to hose him down, too.
(Get him good: you want to make it worth your while in case he files an
assault charge on you!)

Pretty good advice. It isn't widely appreciated that uncontaminated glycol
antifreeze, while toxic to us vertebrates because it goes through a methanol
phase when we metabolize it, is very biodegradable. To the wee critters it
is like any other carbohydrate... who knows, maybe it is less toxic than a
twinkie ;-)

When aircraft need to have their wings de-iced before takeoff, they are
hosed down with glycol. As long as we keep pets and children out of the
stuff there is no problem. I think it's ironic that the toxicity profile is
similar to acetominophen (Tylenol); non-toxic in small amounts but
destructive to a vital organ (kidneys for ethylene glycol, liver for
acetominophen) as the dose passes a threshold.

The US EPA does have an issue with used antifreeze. They want it tested for
heavy metals (primarily lead) that may have leached into it during use.
Dunno about heater cores, but most OEM radiators in the last decade or two
have been aluminum, so solder exposure is small.

Mike

 

[Edward Hayes]

Good going Rick: I see at least two of use do it correctly and it
works every time. I especially if your advise to NOT get in a hurry.
ed

 

[Jim Stewart]

is there any special gear out there to burp a radiator, i remember
reading a post where a guy said his mechanic hooked up the brake
bleeding pump to his radiator. do u guys know of any special radiator
bleeding gear that can take the heartache out of bleeding the air out
of this forester coolant? thanks

On an episode of "American Hotrod", they
connected a vacuum pump to the radiator
cap to get an air bubble out of the cooling
system.

I've never seen the adapters or fittings to
do such a thing, but I suspect it would work.

For non-US readers, "American Hotrod" is a
television show that documents the building
of custom hotrods, along with the antics and
somewhat contrived social interactions of the
mechanics, management and customers.

 

[l.lichtman]

Jim Stewart wrote: (clip) I've never seen the adapters or fittings to
do such a thing, but I suspect it would work. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If there are air bubbles in the system which can follow an upward path
to the radiator filler, they will rise on their own. Pulling a vacuum
will make the bubbles larger, so they will rise faster. If there is
air trapped in a loop somewhere, so that they have to go down before
they can go up and out, the vacuum will make them larger, but they
won't travel out. That's why you have to run the engine with the
heater on.

 

[y_p_w]

is there any special gear out there to burp a radiator, i remember
reading a post where a guy said his mechanic hooked up the brake
bleeding pump to his radiator. do u guys know of any special radiator
bleeding gear that can take the heartache out of bleeding the air out
of this forester coolant? thanks

<http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=all&Group_ID=12500&store=snapon-store>

Except for the coolant exchanger, most of these systems run
on shop air pressure to create the vacuum.

I don't think this is much of an issue with the turbo models.
Most have the highest cooling system spot right at the high
coolant tank.

 

[glasceus]

rick, i cannot tell u how much i appreciate those instructions. i
printed out your instructions and am gonna devote an entire day to
getting it done. i already went to walmart and bought a ramp. i'm gonna
use all day friday to do the job. i'll post results on saturday. thank
u so much man, those are some great instructions... just one question:
do u remove the bleeder screw from the radiator or u just leave it in.
which is better, with it in our out? thanks again man

 

[Rick Courtright]

do u remove the bleeder screw from the radiator or u just leave it in.

Hi,

I haven't worked on any cars that have the bleeder screw, but it's been
discussed here several times, so hopefully someone who's worked on one
will jump in here!

IIRC, you should leave the bleeder open while doing the actual fill,
then leave it open when you first start the engine. I'd probably leave
it open during the first "cycle" of warm up and "burping," then close it
for subsequent cycles, but someone will correct me if that's not the
best way.

Good luck!

Rick

 

[Rick Courtright]

y_p_w wrote:

Except for the coolant exchanger, most of these systems run
on shop air pressure to create the vacuum.

Hi,

Nice tool, though I think it's a $200 solution to a $2 problem at the
home level... (different in a shop, of course!)

One caveat about using these vacuum devices: like so many tools, the
operator's skill and attention can define the final result.

Example: I've got a '92 V-6 Camry whose previous owner had it "flushed
and filled" by the Toyota dealer annually since it was new. My
experience with Toyotas is limited (two of their trucks, the one car),
but so far, my experiences indicate Totota engines are BAD for holding
air (this V-6 actually has a second radiator cap on the engine to help
bleed it) and the guys who write the Toyota owners manuals have no clue
as to actual fluid capacities, so the first time I drained the system, I
carefully measured the amount of coolant I took out.

I then refilled with that same amount, and the system appeared "dry." By
the time it was full, I'd added nearly an entire quart of coolant over
what was in there (that was BEFORE I'd even fired up the engine and lost
any to splashing.) So even though the system had been vacuum filled by
the dealer, there were still some SERIOUS air pockets in there!

So I'm not sure these devices are all they're cracked up to be if not
used with care. Since I'm not doing this for a living, I prefer a good
cup of coffee...

Rick

 

[y_p_w]

y_p_w wrote:



Hi,

Nice tool, though I think it's a $200 solution to a $2 problem at the
home level... (different in a shop, of course!)

BTW - I was wrong about the big coolant exchanger on rollers. Even
that thing runs on shop air.

One caveat about using these vacuum devices: like so many tools, the
operator's skill and attention can define the final result.

Well - I once saw a Subaru TSB recommending the use of one of
these devices. Snap-On was specifically mentioned as a source,
and I think Mac Tools. The same TSB also had a curve of
coolant concentration. I think they recommended at least a
concentration of 37%. 40% should be fine for most people who
don't go into subzero temps, and it should actually cool better in
high temps.

 

[glasceus]

i tried your way rick, but it didnt work at all. still air in the
system. so i modified your method. instead of reving the engine. i just
put in on ramps and let it idle. the air bubbles slowly came up, then
to continue forcing them up i pounded on the top of the radiated with
my fist. a lot of bubbles came out. i shut the engine off as soon as
the fan activated to stop the coolant level from falling. after i turn
it off i continueto pound on the radiator to get more bubbles out.
after that i put the cap back on, let it cool down , take the cap back
off and top again. repeat that procedure another time then turn the
engine off until very cold. i think i got most of the air out because i
cant hear any water noises anymore. this procedure took up all day.

now that the water noises are gone i hear a squeeking noise coming from
the rear of the car when i drive slow. any ideas? here we go again.

98 forester S

 

[Rick Courtright]

i tried your way rick, but it didnt work at all. still air in the
system. so i modified your method. instead of reving the engine. i

Hi,

Sorry to hear things didn't work out as I described, but I do see some
things that might be problematic with how you "modified" my procedure
(sorry if I wasn't clear on them):

When did you take off and put on the cap? It should have been removed
before starting any of the procedure, and should remain off until the
end, just before you go for your test ride.

And go ahead and let the cooling fan go on. When the coolant level in
the radiator drops, it allows more air/bubbles to move out of the
system. Again, the cap should NOT be installed at this time.

When you revved the engine, was the cap off? If not, trapped bubbles
have no where to go and can stay in there for a long time. With the cap
off, you're duplicating to a small degree the vacuum pump idea: coolant
is being "pressurized" by heat and water pump movement, and it will try
to reach the point of lower pressure, the radiator filler neck, if it
can.

The squeaking noise? Perhaps it's the car's way of saying "please don't
beat on my radiator any more." Otherwise I've got nothing.

Rick

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

i tried your way rick, but it didnt work at all. still air in the
system. so i modified your method. instead of reving the engine. i just
put in on ramps and let it idle. the air bubbles slowly came up, then
to continue forcing them up i pounded on the top of the radiated with
my fist. a lot of bubbles came out. i shut the engine off as soon as
the fan activated to stop the coolant level from falling. after i turn
it off i continueto pound on the radiator to get more bubbles out.
after that i put the cap back on, let it cool down , take the cap back
off and top again. repeat that procedure another time then turn the
engine off until very cold. i think i got most of the air out because i
cant hear any water noises anymore. this procedure took up all day.

now that the water noises are gone i hear a squeeking noise coming from
the rear of the car when i drive slow. any ideas? here we go again.

98 forester S

Some Imprezas have weak/poorly installed rear wheel bearings(well know
problem - replace with Legacy style bearings). But it could just be a
bushing or something too.

Carl

 

[glasceus]

looks like i spoke too soon, the water noises are back now. sounds like
a river behind the dash. but good thing is i got my title and
registration today and i am gonna post the car for sale this weekend.

its a pity because its a beautiful car inside and out. i'm definitely
gonna miss it. but no car is worth this much stress. i have more
important things to worry about

 

[glasceus]

looks like i spoke too soon, the water noises are back now. sounds like
a river behind the dash. but good thing is i got my title and
registration today and i am gonna post the car for sale this weekend.

its a pity because its a beautiful car inside and out. i'm definitely
gonna miss it. but no car is worth this much stress. i have more
important things to worry about

 

[sewiv]

is there any special gear out there to burp a radiator, i remember
reading a post where a guy said his mechanic hooked up the brake
bleeding pump to his radiator. do u guys know of any special radiator
bleeding gear that can take the heartache out of bleeding the air out
of this forester coolant? thanks

The simplest and most useful thing I've found so far is about $20 at
most
NAPA car parts stores. It's labeled a "No-spill funnel", and is a
system
that replaces the radiator cap with a nozzle, into which you insert a
(supplied)
funnel. Fill the funnel 1/3 full, start the car, let it idle with the
heat on, do whatever
you want to hoses and such to get the bubbles out, or just go have a
cup of coffee
or whatever. While the coolant is expanding and contracting and such,
it just
moves up and down in the funnel, instead of splashing everywhere.
After a while,
if the funnel is empty, add some more coolant. When the level of the
coolant
in the funnel hasn't changed in a while, give the upper hose a squeeze
to create a
little space, put the (supplied) long-handled stopper in the funnel,
release the
hose, remove the funnel from the nozzle, empty it into the overflow
tank, and put
the normal cap back on the radiator.

Very easy, and no more coolant on the ground.

 

[glasceus]

hmm. interesting sewiv, thats some good stuff. i did a search online
and found a Lisle Spill-Free Funnel which only costs 20 bucks but makes
bleeding the radiator super easy, all u have to do is hook it up then
run the engine for as long as u need to get the bubbles out. sweet. i
called napa but they dont carry it. gonna try and find one this
weekend. that way i can just put the car on ramps, hook it up, turn on
the engine, walk away for a couple hours to give all the bubbles time
to get out. this is the last straw though. thanks man. really good
stuff!!!

 

[glasceus]

hey sewiv, do u know of any local brand name shops that sell this
funnel? thanks

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

hmm. interesting sewiv, thats some good stuff. i did a search online
and found a Lisle Spill-Free Funnel which only costs 20 bucks but makes
bleeding the radiator super easy, all u have to do is hook it up then
run the engine for as long as u need to get the bubbles out. sweet. i
called napa but they dont carry it. gonna try and find one this
weekend. that way i can just put the car on ramps, hook it up, turn on
the engine, walk away for a couple hours to give all the bubbles time
to get out. this is the last straw though. thanks man. really good
stuff!!!

I think it's time to have your car's headgaskets tested. If you had no
'water noises' and they came back, those gasses came from somewhere -
likely a combustion chamber or 2.

Carl