Overheating Subaru Legacy AWD wagon, part 2...(What a neat test!)

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

So...

I had today off since there was no work (thank God or whatever deity you
subscribe to, since it was a MISERABLE day!) and spent the day looking for
this:

http://www.blockchek.com/kits.htm

to check for the presence of hydrocarbons in the radiator/coolant.
Autozone had it listed but at the store they never heard of it! CarQuest
didn't have it, either.

I decided before dumping money into the car to get the inspection done. By
state law it was supposed to be done today, and who am I to mess with
state law concerning motor vehicles?!

I knew it wouldn't pass because of the one little rust spot and an exhaust
leak, but where else can you get a complete check for $29?

I mentioned the possibility of a BHG to the inspector, and told him to
give it a good wringing out so I could decide to spend the $$$ fixing the
motor. It passed everything but the rust and exhaust, and the emissions
because the OBD-II didn't have enough driving cycles on it (battery keeps
crapping out)

They said they had a testing kit there, but didn't want to mess with it
because they stopped doing repairs years ago. I asked if there was another
way to check and he said we can put the analyzer on it. "How much?" He
said, "Start the car!"

We took the radiator cap off, and he took the Exhaust Gas Analyzer from
the state's emissions tester and stuck it in the radiator filler neck!
He said Rev it up! so I reached over the intake and hit the accelerator
linkage and ramped it up to about 2500 RiPpeMs. We could see the screen
from the front of the car, and in big black digits I watched the numbers:
51 at 900 RPMs, 125 at 1500 RPMS, and 172 at 2500 RPMS!!!! Yeah! I guess
there are exhaust gasses in the radiator!

What a cool check! Others wanted to charge me $50-90 for this check, and
we did it using the inspection gas analyzer!

So, obviously the bottom line is, there is a leak from the HG to the
coolant. Autozone had this stuff "...guaranteed to repair BHG or double
your money back!!" The only thing I'm wondering is, in addition to
'fixing' cracks in the HG, what else does it 'fix' besides? Cooling
passages in the block and radiator?

Other than a BHG, the engine appears in good shape. I got an estimate of
$580 for labor and $34 each for the gaskets, and while you're there do the
seals, belts, etc etc. This guy is a Subaru whiz, so I know it would be
done correctly, but the total will probably be ~$900.

Hmmmm...

 

[Bruce L. Bergman]

I decided before dumping money into the car to get the inspection done. By
state law it was supposed to be done today, and who am I to mess with
state law concerning motor vehicles?!

I knew it wouldn't pass because of the one little rust spot and an exhaust
leak, but where else can you get a complete check for $29?

I still don't get this "No Rust At All" policy - the State puts the
salt on the roads and then penalizes you when it rusts the car? The
bill must have been written by the body shop owner's association and
the new car dealers association and handed to their pocket legislator
in exchange for a large "contribution"... ;-)

Get out the MIG Torch, the Bondo, and a rattle-can of Rustoleum and
get to work.

I was going to gloat about Life in El Lay, but you've heard it. ;-)

I mentioned the possibility of a BHG to the inspector, and told him to
give it a good wringing out so I could decide to spend the $$$ fixing the
motor. It passed everything but the rust and exhaust, and the emissions
because the OBD-II didn't have enough driving cycles on it (battery keeps
crapping out)

Time to get either a battery, alternator, or both. Get to work.

They said they had a testing kit there, but didn't want to mess with it
because they stopped doing repairs years ago. I asked if there was another
way to check and he said we can put the analyzer on it. "How much?" He
said, "Start the car!"

Yeah, that is one way to do it, but most shops don't have the
machine unless they're a smog station - damn things are north of $50K.

We took the radiator cap off, and he took the Exhaust Gas Analyzer from
the state's emissions tester and stuck it in the radiator filler neck!
He said Rev it up! so I reached over the intake and hit the accelerator
linkage and ramped it up to about 2500 RiPpeMs. We could see the screen
from the front of the car, and in big black digits I watched the numbers:
51 at 900 RPMs, 125 at 1500 RPMS, and 172 at 2500 RPMS!!!! Yeah! I guess
there are exhaust gasses in the radiator!

What a cool check! Others wanted to charge me $50-90 for this check, and
we did it using the inspection gas analyzer!

So, obviously the bottom line is, there is a leak from the HG to the
coolant. Autozone had this stuff "...guaranteed to repair BHG or double
your money back!!" The only thing I'm wondering is, in addition to
'fixing' cracks in the HG, what else does it 'fix' besides? Cooling
passages in the block and radiator?

IMHO it is Guaranteed to "fix" all that spare money rattling around
in your wallet by transferring it into the seller's. The cooling
system is running at 15 PSI and the chamber pressures can go past
2,500 PSI peak (educated guess), do you really think a chemical,
diluted in coolant and applied on the lower pressure side, is going to
do very much for very long?

Any "Magic Elixir" you can simply dump in the radiator water is only
going to be a very temporary solution to get you past an emissions
test or the buyer's mechanic inspection - and when the Magic runs out
and they find out they've been took they aren't going to be happy.

Other than a BHG, the engine appears in good shape. I got an estimate of
$580 for labor and $34 each for the gaskets, and while you're there do the
seals, belts, etc etc. This guy is a Subaru whiz, so I know it would be
done correctly, but the total will probably be ~$900.

Hmmmm...

It's your money. But from everything I've heard so far, go for it.

--<< Bruce >>--

 

[clifto]

I still don't get this "No Rust At All" policy - the State puts the
salt on the roads and then penalizes you when it rusts the car?

Yeah, what state is it that I never ever want to set tire in?

 

[johngdole]

I know some want OEM parts, but do consider Fel-Pro Multi-Layer Steel
(MLS) head gaskets (about $34 each on rockauto.com).

 

[Tegger]

and the chamber pressures can go past
2,500 PSI peak (educated guess),

It's more like 20,000 psi.

 

[Devils Advocate]

It's more like 20,000 psi.

What's a tegger doing on a Subaru newsgroup? lol

 

[Tegger]

What's a tegger doing on a Subaru newsgroup? lol

Being a party-crasher. ;^)

 

[hachiroku]

Yeah, what state is it that I never ever want to set tire in?

Taxachusetts. Surface rust is OK, sharp exposure has to be covered. Urban
Legend says 30+ years ago some girl got tetanus or lost a leg or something
because of a sharp edge on a car...

 

[Dyno]

It's more like 20,000 psi.

Naturally aspirated gasoline engines will never see pressures that high.
It's more like 1100 to 1200 psi.

Supercharged gasoline will be higher depending on the level of boost.

 

[Tegger]

Naturally aspirated gasoline engines will never see pressures that high.
It's more like 1100 to 1200 psi.

Supercharged gasoline will be higher depending on the level of boost.

I remembered reaidng the 20K figure somewhere. Evidently I misrememebered
what I read.

Some Googling reveals combustion pressures for a road-going NA engine can
be anywhere from 500 to 2,000 psi.

 

[Dyno]

I remembered reaidng the 20K figure somewhere. Evidently I misrememebered
what I read.

Some Googling reveals combustion pressures for a road-going NA engine can
be anywhere from 500 to 2,000 psi.

Gasoline fueled engines will not get anywhere near 2000 psi. Diesels on
the other hand can, especially if boosted.

 

[Tegger]

Tegger wrote:
Gasoline fueled engines will not get anywhere near 2000 psi. Diesels
on the other hand can, especially if boosted.

1,200 psi?

<http://groups.google.com/group/rec....ylinder+"peak+pressure"+psi#3733ee7d5751dc93>

 

[Coyoteboy]

Taxachusetts. Surface rust is OK, sharp exposure has to be covered. Urban
Legend says 30+ years ago some girl got tetanus or lost a leg or something
because of a sharp edge on a car...

Normal in the UK too, no holes near suspension members and no sharp edges on
exposed body - you can tape over it if you like, but if its possible for
someone to cut themselves on it you should sort it. It'd have to be a pretty
crapped out car to have sharp rust on exposed surfaces though.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Normal in the UK too, no holes near suspension members and no sharp edges
on exposed body - you can tape over it if you like, but if its possible
for someone to cut themselves on it you should sort it. It'd have to be a
pretty crapped out car to have sharp rust on exposed surfaces though.

HEY! CB!!!! Where ya *BEEN*!!!!????

Nice to see you again.

I'm not sure you can use tape anymore here. I know they no longer allow
colored tape over broken taillights/turnsignals.

Esp in my area, when the country is doing well, we're in a recession. I
think they're trying to make it so car ownership is for the 'priveldged'...

 

[Rick Courtright]

seals, belts, etc etc. This guy is a Subaru whiz, so I know it would be
done correctly, but the total will probably be ~$900.

Hmmmm...

Hi,

So... for two or three car payments, you could be set for a LONG time!

Here's the rationale behind that statement, courtesy of my machine shop
buddy: it's no secret alloy heads tend to warp. Especially really light
ones (anyone remember 22-R Toyota engines? They were bad about HGs, and
the heads themselves were essentially hollow shells. Hardly any metal to
speak of.)

However, his claim is once they've gone thru their initial "warp" cycle,
they can be surfaced, and will hold "true" for a long time after. He did
a 22-R head for me, and told me it would probably never warp again. He
was right. So, make sure your mechanic checks and surfaces the heads
(and the block, though warpage there's somewhat rare) and you should be
ok in the HG department for the foreseeable future. If one doesn't
surface the heads--all bets are off! (I often wonder if this is why some
people never have a second incident of BHG on a particular car, others
do???)

Also, on filling and burping the cooling system: a buddy once told me
about "backfilling" an engine by removing the t-stat and doing the
initial fill thru the t-stat opening (making sure the heater valve's
open if the engine has a "closable" valve. Many Subies are constant
flow, so this isn't an issue w/ them.) Then install the t-stat and
finish filling thru the radiator. Start the engine, leaving the radiator
cap off (elevated nose always helps.) The engine will probably burp and
make a mess out the filler neck. Keep it running, and top off the
coolant. If the temp gauge is running normal, but the heater's running
cold, run the revs up a bit to purge the heater core. The engine may
burp again. Turn it off, leave the cap off, and let it cool as
completely as you have time for. Overnight's not too long if you can
afford the time.

When it's cool, top it off, leaving the cap off. Repeat the run/burp
drill. It may or may not burp much this time.

After you've been thru a couple of run/cool/refill cycles, then cap it
off (cold.) Apparently one of the reasons air gets trapped in so many
systems is installing the cap too soon. I dunno, but using his method
has decreased my grief level when filling cooling systems quite a bit.

Good luck!

Rick

 

[StephenW]

So...

I had today off since there was no work (thank God or whatever deity you
subscribe to, since it was a MISERABLE day!) and spent the day looking for
this:

http://www.blockchek.com/kits.htm

to check for the presence of hydrocarbons in the radiator/coolant.
Autozone had it listed but at the store they never heard of it! CarQuest
didn't have it, either.

I decided before dumping money into the car to get the inspection done. By
state law it was supposed to be done today, and who am I to mess with
state law concerning motor vehicles?!

I knew it wouldn't pass because of the one little rust spot and an exhaust
leak, but where else can you get a complete check for $29?

I mentioned the possibility of a BHG to the inspector, and told him to
give it a good wringing out so I could decide to spend the $$$ fixing the
motor. It passed everything but the rust and exhaust, and the emissions
because the OBD-II didn't have enough driving cycles on it (battery keeps
crapping out)

They said they had a testing kit there, but didn't want to mess with it
because they stopped doing repairs years ago. I asked if there was another
way to check and he said we can put the analyzer on it. "How much?" He
said, "Start the car!"

We took the radiator cap off, and he took the Exhaust Gas Analyzer from
the state's emissions tester and stuck it in the radiator filler neck!
He said Rev it up! so I reached over the intake and hit the accelerator
linkage and ramped it up to about 2500 RiPpeMs. We could see the screen
from the front of the car, and in big black digits I watched the numbers:
51 at 900 RPMs, 125 at 1500 RPMS, and 172 at 2500 RPMS!!!! Yeah! I guess
there are exhaust gasses in the radiator!

What a cool check! Others wanted to charge me $50-90 for this check, and
we did it using the inspection gas analyzer!

So, obviously the bottom line is, there is a leak from the HG to the
coolant. Autozone had this stuff "...guaranteed to repair BHG or double
your money back!!" The only thing I'm wondering is, in addition to
'fixing' cracks in the HG, what else does it 'fix' besides? Cooling
passages in the block and radiator?

Other than a BHG, the engine appears in good shape. I got an estimate of
$580 for labor and $34 each for the gaskets, and while you're there do the
seals, belts, etc etc. This guy is a Subaru whiz, so I know it would be
done correctly, but the total will probably be ~$900.

Hmmmm...

I've used the liquid kits for head gaskets, but IF you have access to a 4 or
5 gas analiser that the best and most accurate way to look for exhaust gas
in the rad.

--
Steve
ASE Master Tech
L1 Diag
Currently residing at a Subaru Shop
4.5 years doing tires and alighnments