Oil leaks at 59,000 miles ??? !!!

[Donkey Agony]

I've got a '99 Outback Sedan (it was actually called the "SUS" -- Sport
Utility Sedan -- for that year only). Has 59,0000 miles. Came back
from a 4-hour trip (each way) the other day and smoke was pouring out
from under the hood! So I took it to my local mechanics who told me
both the front and rear engine seals needed replacing, and that this was
a common problem with Subarus.

I've taken very good care of this car (the car was fine in mid-August
when it was gone over with a fine-tooth comb).

Well, I really loved the Outbacks -- up until now. If this is really a
common problem with Subarus, that does it.

Which sedans are available today that are more or less equivalent to the
Outback (high level off the ground...) but that are better made? Any
suggestions?

I've taking the car into the Subaru dealer service tomorrow to get the
seals replaced (and I'm going to complain loudly in the hopes they may
give me a break -- my local mechanic said it should cost somewhere
around $2,600 if they were to do it!). Then, since it's 7 years old,
and things seem to be starting to head south, I'm going to sell it and
buy a new car -- maybe right away, maybe in 6 months.

Has Subaru fixed the engine seal problem in the newer Outbacks?
Otherwise, what other cars should I look at?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[mulder]

I've got a '99 Outback Sedan (it was actually called the "SUS" -- Sport
Utility Sedan -- for that year only). Has 59,0000 miles. Came back
from a 4-hour trip (each way) the other day and smoke was pouring out
from under the hood! So I took it to my local mechanics who told me
both the front and rear engine seals needed replacing, and that this was
a common problem with Subarus.

I've taken very good care of this car (the car was fine in mid-August
when it was gone over with a fine-tooth comb).

Well, I really loved the Outbacks -- up until now. If this is really a
common problem with Subarus, that does it.

Which sedans are available today that are more or less equivalent to the
Outback (high level off the ground...) but that are better made? Any
suggestions?

I've taking the car into the Subaru dealer service tomorrow to get the
seals replaced (and I'm going to complain loudly in the hopes they may
give me a break -- my local mechanic said it should cost somewhere
around $2,600 if they were to do it!). Then, since it's 7 years old,
and things seem to be starting to head south, I'm going to sell it and
buy a new car -- maybe right away, maybe in 6 months.

Has Subaru fixed the engine seal problem in the newer Outbacks?
Otherwise, what other cars should I look at?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

It may not be as bad as they're telling you. Common leakage points on
the Subaru engines are the front crank seal and the valve cover
gaskets. What can make these leaks seem worse than they are is the
fact that the exhaust crosses over underneath the engine, so the
leaking oil will sometimes find its way onto the hot exhaust and make
a lot of smoke, instead of just dripping down onto the ground.
The price you were quoted sounds insane, even if the engine has to be
removed from the car to repair a leaking rear crank seal. It's a few
hours of labor but nowhere near that much, and the parts are not
expensive.
The proper procedure is to wash down the engine thoroughly to remove
all the existing oil residue, then run the engine and check for the
true source of the leaks. It may help to add a dye to the oil, this is
a troubleshooting aid often used to precisely locate such problems.
The dye will show up very visibly under black light.
Finally the PCV valve and related hoses should be checked, as a
malfunctioning PCV system can allow pressure to build up inside the
crankcase and thus cause the seals to leak.

 

[Jim Stewart]

It may not be as bad as they're telling you. Common leakage points on
the Subaru engines are the front crank seal and the valve cover
gaskets. What can make these leaks seem worse than they are is the
fact that the exhaust crosses over underneath the engine, so the
leaking oil will sometimes find its way onto the hot exhaust and make
a lot of smoke, instead of just dripping down onto the ground.
The price you were quoted sounds insane, even if the engine has to be
removed from the car to repair a leaking rear crank seal. It's a few
hours of labor but nowhere near that much, and the parts are not
expensive.
The proper procedure is to wash down the engine thoroughly to remove
all the existing oil residue, then run the engine and check for the
true source of the leaks. It may help to add a dye to the oil, this is
a troubleshooting aid often used to precisely locate such problems.
The dye will show up very visibly under black light.
Finally the PCV valve and related hoses should be checked, as a
malfunctioning PCV system can allow pressure to build up inside the
crankcase and thus cause the seals to leak.

Mulder is right.

There is *no way* a mechanic can tell if the front,
rear, or both seals are bad without thoroughly
degreasing the engine and transmission then watching
closely. My bet is a front seal. Shouldn't cost
more than $400-500 if you just do the seal, and no
more than $700-$800 if you also replace the water
pump, timing belt and tensioner (which I would do
if it were my car).

As to getting rid of the car because it's old, I'll
buy it from you My '99 has 116,000 miles and is
not showing it's age yet and my daughter needs a
car.

You can do the degreasing and inspection yourself.
Go down to the auto parts store and buy a couple
cans of "Gunk". Take the car to a self-service
car wash with pressure guns. Follow the instructions
on the can and spray all the areas coated with oil
and grime. You'll have to get under the car and
get a little dirty, but it's worth it to find out
the real story.

Rinse with the pressure washer. Check the bottom
of the car daily with a flashlight. You probably
can't tell exactly where the oil is coming from,
but you should definitely be able to tell if it's
front or back.

Find a mechanic that is good with Subaru's. They
are a little different and it's worthwhile to find
someone that's experienced. If nothing else, you
can tell us your city and see if anyone knows of
a good mechanic. The front oil seal leak is a
common problem. Besides changing the seal, the
mechanic must also change the oil pump o-ring and
locktite the oil pump backplate screws.

 

[Rick Courtright]

and that this was a common problem with Subarus.

And Toyotas, and Hondas, and Fords and Chevies and...

You get the picture!

Engine seals suffer from heat and time as well as things mentioned by
Mulder and Jim. About 75k miles and they'll all be leaking on many makes
out here in the warmer climes of SoCal, sooner if time is the culprit vs
miles. At six years old or so, I'd suspect time's taking its toll on
your seals.

Now, Subies do have a coupla "problem" areas, but with a little
planning, they can be taken care of easily and with relatively minimal
expense ($2600??? That oughta just about get you a new engine!) These
are on the front of the engine (rear seals aren't so problematic) and
include the front main (crankshaft) seal, the two camshaft seals, and
the oil pump seals, both the chintzy O-rings on the back and the regular
seal on the front.

If you replace them at each timing belt change (assuming a 60k mile
interval), you should not have many leakage problems, and you save tons
on labor, since you've gotta do the same work to get to the seals as to
the t-belt (AND water pump, if you're really into being cautious.)
Prices Jim quoted should take care of most everything, and then some. If
you're a moderately accomplished home-style wrench, you can probably get
away for about $250 or so for t-belt(s), seals and a water pump.

A less radical solution, which sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't, is a
switch to one of the hi-mileage oils (most makers have one) which
contain additives to soften and swell the seals. I've heard good reports
from some folks, though these products won't help a seal that's so far
gone it's cracked.

Good luck, and be careful with your money--lots of people out there
don't know the intricacies of Subie engines and take advantage of their
customers.

Rick

 

[j]

It's very common for, correct me if I'm worng, 99 and earlier Subarus
to lose oil from the cam seal or oil pump seal. These seals are both
located right behind the timing belt. Mechanics around Park City/Salt
Lake City joke about this being "Subaru Syndrome", or some wise-ass
crap like that. It is more than likely that this is the problem. The
thing to do would be to have these replaced, and replace the timing
belt at the same time. I think it cost me somewhere around $400-$450.
As a previous poster mentioned, the oil leaks from the front, and then
finds it's way onto the exhaust y-pipe. It's really not a big deal.
If you still want to sell, I'd be happy to take over your problem child.

 

[j]

As an aside, speaking of those not knowing the intricacies of
Subarus...I recently drove my Baja to the Midwest. Upon arrival, it
was time for an oil change. The closest dealership was in Omaha, about
90 or so miles away. So, I took it to an unnamed drive thru oil change
establishment (starts with Jif, ends with ube). I could see on the
faces of the techs, as I pulled in, that they had no idea what the hell
I was driving. Anyhow, the tech went into the pit to begin the change.
A few minutes later, I was all three techs in a huddle looking
something over. I pretended to go get something out of my car and
overheard something about not getting some thing until three days
later. Oh no. Long story short, the tech went under my Baja and
pulled the spin-on tranny filter off the car and poked a couple of
holes in it. Mind you the nearest dealership is about 90 miles away.
Anyhow, the guy felt really bad...REALLY BAD. The dealer in Omaha was
sympathetic to my situation and opened the parts department, for just
me, on Sunday. The guys from the quicky lube went to get the filter,
and got me going again.

That totally sucked, but the moral is...make sure your Subaru is
diagnosed by someone who knows what they are looking at. AND...when in
doubt, post to this group as the people here seem to really know our
beloved Subie's.

 

[Ken Burns]

I've got a '99 Outback Sedan (it was actually called the "SUS" -- Sport
Utility Sedan -- for that year only). Has 59,0000 miles. Came back from
a 4-hour trip (each way) the other day and smoke was pouring out from
under the hood! So I took it to my local mechanics who told me both the
front and rear engine seals needed replacing, and that this was a common
problem with Subarus.

I've taken very good care of this car (the car was fine in mid-August when
it was gone over with a fine-tooth comb).

Well, I really loved the Outbacks -- up until now. If this is really a
common problem with Subarus, that does it.

Which sedans are available today that are more or less equivalent to the
Outback (high level off the ground...) but that are better made? Any
suggestions?

I've taking the car into the Subaru dealer service tomorrow to get the
seals replaced (and I'm going to complain loudly in the hopes they may
give me a break -- my local mechanic said it should cost somewhere around
$2,600 if they were to do it!). Then, since it's 7 years old, and things
seem to be starting to head south, I'm going to sell it and buy a new
car -- maybe right away, maybe in 6 months.

Has Subaru fixed the engine seal problem in the newer Outbacks? Otherwise,
what other cars should I look at?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I had to replace the front seal on my 99 OBW summer 2004. It cost me a
total of $180 at the local Subaru dealer using genuine Subaru parts.

 

[Edward Hayes]

I do believe that Subaru changed the seal material somewhere around
02? Someone on this NG said the new one was a different color. My 2000
Forester has NO oil leaks at 98,000 miles.

 

[mulder]

As an aside, speaking of those not knowing the intricacies of
Subarus...I recently drove my Baja to the Midwest. Upon arrival, it
was time for an oil change. The closest dealership was in Omaha, about
90 or so miles away. So, I took it to an unnamed drive thru oil change
establishment (starts with Jif, ends with ube). I could see on the
faces of the techs, as I pulled in, that they had no idea what the hell
I was driving. Anyhow, the tech went into the pit to begin the change.
A few minutes later, I was all three techs in a huddle looking
something over. I pretended to go get something out of my car and
overheard something about not getting some thing until three days
later. Oh no. Long story short, the tech went under my Baja and
pulled the spin-on tranny filter off the car and poked a couple of
holes in it. Mind you the nearest dealership is about 90 miles away.
Anyhow, the guy felt really bad...REALLY BAD. The dealer in Omaha was
sympathetic to my situation and opened the parts department, for just
me, on Sunday. The guys from the quicky lube went to get the filter,
and got me going again.

That totally sucked, but the moral is...make sure your Subaru is
diagnosed by someone who knows what they are looking at. AND...when in
doubt, post to this group as the people here seem to really know our
beloved Subie's.

This is a typical (and unfortunately very common) example of why
nobody, regardless of what car they have, should EVER go to Jiffy Lube
or any similar place. It isn't worth the risk to your car to get that
quick cheap oil change, you're far better off just driving on the old
oil for as long as it takes to get to a competent shop or do it
yourself.
Jiffy Lube has had to replace many an engine due to their "techs"
stripping drain plugs that later fell out, draining trannies and
refilling the engine (and vice versa), etc. Just think for a moment of
who would work there- why would a truly competent mechanic want to
work at a place that only does oil changes? The answer is, they
wouldn't.

 

[MN]

And Toyotas, and Hondas, and Fords and Chevies and...

You get the picture!

Engine seals suffer from heat and time as well as things mentioned by
Mulder and Jim. About 75k miles and they'll all be leaking on many makes
out here in the warmer climes of SoCal, sooner if time is the culprit vs
miles. At six years old or so, I'd suspect time's taking its toll on
your seals.

Just to put things in perspective, seal materials exist that can
easily take on ravages of heat, pressure, and time for much
longer than 60k miles and 6 years.

No Mercedes leaks oil at 60k milage, neither do Lexus,
Cadillacs. Many other less expensive brands, don't leak either,
such as Buicks, in general.

It is just that many car manufacturers can't resist the
temptation to lower costs and cut corners. The market
is very competitive and every penny seems to matter.
It is absurd to fit a part (engine) that can last 200k
with seals that fall apart at 75k, but if you take into account
that many consumers sell their cars at around 50-60k
5-6 years because they simply get bored, and want something
new, then this issue rarely affects the primary customer,
that is the original buyer. In the secondary market such
deficiencies frequently get blamed on bad luck read: poor
maintenance by previous owner, ...you get the point.

Now Subie owners like to keep their cars longer, similar
to many MBenz owners, cause the Subaru boxer engine
is so sturdy by design, but unfortunately fit with crappy
seal material, so you have to resign yourself to doing seals,
o-rings, etc as part of a so called "routine" maintenance
regimen.

I have an old GM Corsica, with a similar problem, the
engine/drivetrain 2.8L V-6 is solid, but I get constant
trouble with poor quality sensors, seals, etc. To deal with
this I made it a habit to routinely replace all sensors, belts,
and most seals I can get my hands on at every 60k.
The car has 183k miles and 16 years, and has been
bulletproof so to speak. Domestic parts are cheap so
it is just a matter of will. With an import things get more
complicated quickly ($$$).

Anyway, the point is you'll find many Subie owners
put tons of miles on their cars, but not without some
maintenance. The cars are very enjoyable, loveable, and
relatively easy to work on, so this makes the added maintenance
more forgiving.

MN

 

[Jim Stewart]

I do believe that Subaru changed the seal material somewhere around
02? Someone on this NG said the new one was a different color. My 2000
Forester has NO oil leaks at 98,000 miles.

The replacement seal I installed was a different
color than the one I removed.

 

[MN]

Anyway, the point is you'll find many Subie owners
put tons of miles on their cars, but not without some
maintenance. The cars are very enjoyable, loveable, and
relatively easy to work on, so this makes the added maintenance
more forgiving.

Should have read: ...so this makes _one_ more forgiving of the
added maintenance.

)

MN

 

[Michael Pardee]

It may not be as bad as they're telling you. Common leakage points on
the Subaru engines are the front crank seal and the valve cover
gaskets. What can make these leaks seem worse than they are is the
fact that the exhaust crosses over underneath the engine, so the
leaking oil will sometimes find its way onto the hot exhaust and make
a lot of smoke, instead of just dripping down onto the ground.
The price you were quoted sounds insane, even if the engine has to be
removed from the car to repair a leaking rear crank seal. It's a few
hours of labor but nowhere near that much, and the parts are not
expensive.
The proper procedure is to wash down the engine thoroughly to remove
all the existing oil residue, then run the engine and check for the
true source of the leaks. It may help to add a dye to the oil, this is
a troubleshooting aid often used to precisely locate such problems.
The dye will show up very visibly under black light.
Finally the PCV valve and related hoses should be checked, as a
malfunctioning PCV system can allow pressure to build up inside the
crankcase and thus cause the seals to leak.

I second the PCV emphasis. In normal operation and while sitting the oil
level is below the bottom of the crank (otherwise the crank would foam the
oil something fierce), so it isn't just leaking out, it is likely being
forced out by crankcase pressure. As the others say, clean it up, clean the
PCV, and see what you have.

Mike

 

[Donkey Agony]

First, thanks to everybody who has answered my initial query. One thing
impressive is that people here seem very devoted to Subaru despite
apparent flaws in some of their older models.

It's very common for, correct me if I'm worng, 99 and earlier Subarus
to lose oil from the cam seal or oil pump seal. These seals are both
located right behind the timing belt. Mechanics around Park City/Salt
Lake City joke about this being "Subaru Syndrome", or some wise-ass
crap like that. It is more than likely that this is the problem.

Thank you! That's *exactly* what my mechanic (far from Salt Lake
City -- Alexandria, VA) called it.

My big question is ... have they fixed "Subaru Syndrome" in the newer
models?

thing to do would be to have these replaced, and replace the timing
belt at the same time.

Good idea.

I think it cost me somewhere around $400-$450.

Wow, that's a big difference from the price I was quoted (for front and
rear seals).

As a previous poster mentioned, the oil leaks from the front, and then
finds it's way onto the exhaust y-pipe. It's really not a big deal.

The (local) mechanic claimed it was both front and rear. I'll see what
the Subaru dealer says tomorrow.

If you still want to sell, I'd be happy to take over your problem
child.

I'll let you know as the saga progresses.

 

[Donkey Agony]

As to getting rid of the car because it's old, I'll
buy it from you My '99 has 116,000 miles and is
not showing it's age yet
Wow!

and my daughter needs a car.

I'll let you know.

You can do the degreasing and inspection yourself.

Thank you, but that ain't me, babe (as Bob Dylan would say). Division
of labor and all that.

But I do appreciate the pointers!

Thanks,

 

[Donkey Agony]

And Toyotas, and Hondas, and Fords and Chevies and...

The local mechanic said this problem was with Subarus, and that Toyotas
and Hondas were #1 in terms of problem-free cars. Problem is, AFAIK
neither Toyota nor Honda make an Outback-like car...

He said to check out Chrysler (model unknown), Jaguar S-series (which,
after some investigation yields a dead-end -- the S-series is not AWD),
a new Nissan model (again, unknown), and -- on the cheap but good end --
the new Hyundais.

Engine seals suffer from heat and time as well as things mentioned by
Mulder and Jim. About 75k miles and they'll all be leaking on many
makes out here in the warmer climes of SoCal, sooner if time is the
culprit vs miles. At six years old or so, I'd suspect time's taking
its toll on your seals.
Gotcha.

A less radical solution, which sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't, is
a switch to one of the hi-mileage oils (most makers have one) which
contain additives to soften and swell the seals. I've heard good
reports from some folks, though these products won't help a seal
that's so far gone it's cracked.

Thank you, I'll check that out.

Good luck, and be careful with your money--lots of people out there
don't know the intricacies of Subie engines and take advantage of
their customers.

And thanks for that!

 

[Donkey Agony]

That totally sucked, but the moral is...make sure your Subaru is
diagnosed by someone who knows what they are looking at. AND...when
in doubt, post to this group as the people here seem to really know
our beloved Subie's.

Thank you -- will do!

 

[Donkey Agony]

No Mercedes leaks oil at 60k milage, neither do Lexus,
Cadillacs. Many other less expensive brands, don't leak either,
such as Buicks, in general.

It is just that many car manufacturers can't resist the
temptation to lower costs and cut corners. The market
is very competitive and every penny seems to matter.
It is absurd to fit a part (engine) that can last 200k
with seals that fall apart at 75k, but if you take into account
that many consumers sell their cars at around 50-60k
5-6 years because they simply get bored, and want something
new, then this issue rarely affects the primary customer,
that is the original buyer. In the secondary market such
deficiencies frequently get blamed on bad luck read: poor
maintenance by previous owner, ...you get the point.

Now Subie owners like to keep their cars longer, similar
to many MBenz owners, cause the Subaru boxer engine
is so sturdy by design, but unfortunately fit with crappy
seal material, so you have to resign yourself to doing seals,
o-rings, etc as part of a so called "routine" maintenance
regimen.

Bummer.

What's "Subaru-like", but better?

Or are the *new* Outbacks better in this regard?

 

[j]

Exactly. I went against my better judgement, as I had sworn JL off
forever.

 

[Rick Courtright]

No Mercedes leaks oil at 60k milage, neither do Lexus,
Cadillacs. Many other less expensive brands, don't leak either,
such as Buicks, in general.

Interesting...

How is it that a Lexus is but a Toyota "all dressed up for the ball" and
you say it doesn't leak, yet so many Toyotas are known leakers--many of
the V-6es, including mine, can keep up with a Subie drop for drop any
day of the week! Does Toyota have two series of seals, the ones they put
on a $20k Toyota that leak, and then some they spend an extra 50 cents
on they put in a Lexus that doesn't, for which they charge an extra
$15k? I'd love to sit in on a session with THOSE beancounters!

But back to perspective on maintenance: my Subie needed seals about
every 60k (didn't always get 'em), and about $25 covered the cost (I do
my own wrenching.) It blew up at 360k miles (not a seal issue, BTW), so
seal cost would have maxed at around $150. So, averaging about 30k mi/yr
on that car, once every two years I had to toss in an extra $25 in parts
and maybe an extra hour in labor when doing the t-belts (I work
slowly!), and the reward was a car that went over a third of a million
hard miles (including lots of dirt roads and other less than perfect
stuff that probably reduced its life by a third to a half.) It all seems
pretty cheap to me in the grand scheme of things.

There's no such thing as a perfect car. For every strong point in a
design, there almost always will be a weak one. You've just gotta learn
what your tolerance level is! BTW, speaking of tolerance levels, I've
gotta hand it to you for perseverance with that 2.8 GM engine! I never
knew anyone to go more than about 50k before they'd had it with that
thing! In fact, is is true GM sold a huge number of them to Jeep just to
get rid of them?

Rick