Lugs routinely breaking off rear wheel?

[aba]

My 2000 Subaru Outback keeps shearing the lugs of the rear passenger
wheel! After the first incident and having to replace a warped rotor
(go figure), my mechanic swears they are hand torquing the lugs and
hasn't a clue as all else appears normal with the wheel, tire,
bearings, etc. This is the 4th time this has happened in 8 months or
so, all on the same wheel.
Last year I lost all lugs on the rear driver side and ended up losing
the tire completely while driving down the road. $1500 later for
repairs and now I'm paranoid it's going to happen again! Has anyone
had a similar problem?

 

[Edward Hayes]

The correct wheel lug torque value is 67 foot pounds Is the incorrect
torque being applied? Could you have a bent rim which is putting a
bending force on the studs. Are you using any wheel spacers?

 

[bgd]

Something is arguing with something else in torque alignment. Is it
automatic?
The rear is becoming a focus, for reasons that shouldn't be happening....

 

[Deb]

Well, I lost my front wheel completely on my 2002 Outback while driving
50mph this July and could have been killed, but wasn't due to sheer
luck and very sparse traffic on the highway at midnight. Seems in my
case someone forgot to torque my lug nuts after a tire rotation the
week before. Subaru Dealer admitted nothing so I brought the state DMV
safety inspector in on the case. Unfortunately, even with my photos of
the broken lug bolt and otherwise perfect remaining bolts he could not
"prove" anything without the wheel in hand. It was lost somewhere in
the woods on the highway after it fell off.

Total damage was only $900 for mechanical and $1300 for body work and
no one was even remotely injured (I continued driving the car in a
straight line without a wheel on the driver side to safety for around
1/2 mile after it happened). DMV inspector convinced the Subaru dealer
to give me back $500 but that's all he could get out of them. They
said it could not have been a faulty tire rotation but refused to offer
up any other explanation.

Anyway, since then I have had trouble driving, psychologically, and had
to drive with anti-anxiety drugs for a full 2 weeks after the incident.
And now I cannot stop myself from obsessively checking and tightening
all my lug nuts every single week.

This does not really relate to your case but I just wanted to say that
I feel your pain.

 

[Jim Stewart]

My 2000 Subaru Outback keeps shearing the lugs of the rear passenger
wheel! After the first incident and having to replace a warped rotor
(go figure), my mechanic swears they are hand torquing the lugs and
hasn't a clue as all else appears normal with the wheel, tire,
bearings, etc. This is the 4th time this has happened in 8 months or
so, all on the same wheel.
Last year I lost all lugs on the rear driver side and ended up losing
the tire completely while driving down the road. $1500 later for
repairs and now I'm paranoid it's going to happen again! Has anyone
had a similar problem?

Is it possible someone is fucking with you
by loosening the nuts? Are you a highschool
shop teacher or coach, by any chance?

 

[aba]

Just heard back from the mechanic. Lugs are breaking off in a pattern,
always to the right of the one that broke off the last time. They went
ahead and replaced all remaining old lug studs with new ones as they
still have no idea why this is happening. Said the only time they see
this type of breakage is when someone either intentionally tampers with
them or unknowingly overtightens them. Both are totally impossible in
my case. I am now obessive complusive about my tires, as I commute 85
miles each day. I used to love this car - I'm now growing to loathe
it.

Thanks for you inputs. Here are some answers - rim not bent, had this
checked numerous times now. Car is manual, not automatic. Deb, I feel
your pain too. I lost my tire on a windy country road in a massive
rain storm. I'm still cleaning wheat fronds out of my car after having
to treck thru the field to retreive my tire. I don't know if more body
damage was caused by the tow truck driver dragging my car onto the flat
bed or my car dragging 100 yards without a wheel?

 

[aba]

Is it possible someone is fucking with you
by loosening the nuts? Are you a highschool
shop teacher or coach, by any chance?

Had to chuckle at this! No, no, and NO! Car is garage kept and I only
drive it as a commuter car to and from work only. Here's the real
kicker - I work for the government at a militry base and park in a
secure, isolated area each day right in front of my office window!
Ironically enough, last week car was parked all week as I was on
vacation. Drive back and forth to work Monday and to work on Tuesday -
lost lug on way home (while driving) Tuesday night.

 

[Jim Stewart]

Just heard back from the mechanic. Lugs are breaking off in a pattern,
always to the right of the one that broke off the last time. They went
ahead and replaced all remaining old lug studs with new ones as they
still have no idea why this is happening. Said the only time they see
this type of breakage is when someone either intentionally tampers with
them or unknowingly overtightens them. Both are totally impossible in
my case. I am now obessive complusive about my tires, as I commute 85
miles each day. I used to love this car - I'm now growing to loathe
it.

Thanks for you inputs. Here are some answers - rim not bent, had this
checked numerous times now. Car is manual, not automatic. Deb, I feel
your pain too. I lost my tire on a windy country road in a massive
rain storm. I'm still cleaning wheat fronds out of my car after having
to treck thru the field to retreive my tire. I don't know if more body
damage was caused by the tow truck driver dragging my car onto the flat
bed or my car dragging 100 yards without a wheel?

Here's a wild-assed guess from an engineer..
If the rim/wheel happened to have the stud
hole pattern offset from the wheel center,
the resulting sideways stress might cause the
studs to break over time.

A good machinist could measure it for you
or you could swap wheels and see if the problem
follows the wheel.

Please let us know if you find anything.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Here's a wild-assed guess from an engineer..
If the rim/wheel happened to have the stud
hole pattern offset from the wheel center,
the resulting sideways stress might cause the
studs to break over time.

A good machinist could measure it for you
or you could swap wheels and see if the problem
follows the wheel.

Please let us know if you find anything.

Could the dealership (if new) or a previous owner have used 'cast off'
or junkyard or otherwise gottne some off-center wheels as referenced in
this recall?;

*****September 2002 2003 Outback 6cylinders Alloy Wheels off center
Some 6cylinder Outbacks might have improperly manufactured, off -center
alloy wheels. They will be replaced*****

Perhaps the dealership can look for a number or other ID on the wheel
itself.

very odd

Carl

 

[bgd]

Something still has that wheel gaining torque focus all of a sudden. Maybe
something sloppy in front diff inside tranny
or slop in rear end. It seems as though if that wheel is gaining attention
and car rides well, it is not off centered as mentioned. I would think it be
more likely something in the tranny more than rear end, else the front would
be the tight spot, possibly snapping something.
This is a bizarre problem. I had an old v8 with rear end troubles- it
broke off the same wheel as yours twice before figuring it out. A misaligned
body was also a factor. A 4x4 would be more likely to do something like this
as all 4 wheels need same gear drive else one is trying to spin faster than
the other. All tires and wheels the same size? If not, maybe brake dragging?
else problem is serious I would imagine.
Goog Luck, could you post fix when it gets one?

 

[AS]

I hope the lugs were not lubricated. Oily threads, using correct
torque, will lead to over torque.

 

[Rebecca B.]

I think this was meant for here:

From: Edward Hayes - view profile
Date: Wed, Oct 18 2006 4:25 pm
Email: "Edward Hayes" <(e-mail address removed)>


Is it possible that the lug nuts are bottoming out on the stud BEFORE
the wheel is fully tight?

 

[aba]

Two years ago I hit a deer at a pretty high speed on the passenger
front. After extensive body work, car seemed ok, but every couple
thousand miles or so I find the alignment pulling to the front right.
The following year the rear driver wheel fell off, destroying
everything down to the axel and for the last eight months or so I"ve
had all the problems with the rear passenger lugs. I'm sure they are
all playing off each other somehow. I questioned shop about the frame
possibly being bent, but they reassured me if that was the case, I
would have many more problems, car wouldn't steer properly, etc and
this is not the case. I have also questioned the differentials but
again was assured that if that were the case I'd also have other
problems. The same shop has done all the work, and they are the best
in my area, so it's not some shady garage feeding me a line. I'm due
for a set of new tires so maybe in the process I will have the rim
checked out to see if it's off center.
My next move is a new mechanic. I'll let you know how I make out!

 

[Rick Courtright]

My next move is a new mechanic. I'll let you know how I make out!

Hi,

Since there's a collision damage history, I'd be for getting the
alignment checked, all four wheels, by another shop for a "second
opinion." The way most of today's cars are designed to "crush" in a
major collision to absorb energy, it's not unusual to find "after
effects" showing up in places one might not expect even from "minor"
incidents.

Can you correlate any odd tire wear to the wheel in question?

Rick

 

[aba]

No odd tire wear at all. Both major and minor accidents happened well
over a year ago. But at this point, for safety sake,
anything/everything is worth rechecking. I personally have a sneaky
suspicion that during one of my accidents, I may have received one of
the recalled off-center alloy wheels as referenced by Carl 1 Lucky
Texan. Now at this point, all I have to do is figure out how to
prove/disprove this.

 

[Deb]

Yep, aba, I had the flat bed damage too. In my case it had to go on
two flat beds because AAA was not authorized on the parkway I was on,
so they had the local guys tow it and ditch me two miles away so AAA
could come pick me up again. The whole front bumper was messed up
from that. The left fender/quarterpanel (not sure what it's called)
was totally twisted up, not from hitting the ground, but from the wheel
flying up into the wheel well before flying away from the car. I too
was in the rain. It was midnight and the parkway has no shoulder at
all, it's very twisty which meant someone would have crashed right into
me if I had stopped. I also lost brake power without the wheel, so I
had to keep on driving, holding the emergency brake, with my blinkers
on, to an actual exit so I could ditch the car there. I knew my axle
and frame and everything else was going to be way more damaged that
way, but my life was at stake so I chose to sacrifice the car. Luckily
the Subie all wheel drive really kicked in which kept me in a straight
line as the front of the car dropped down and also kept the damage to a
minimum. Mechanically, all I really needed was a new wheel, new strut,
new brakes and drum, new lug nuts and one new lug bolt. No frame
damage, no axle damage, no hub bearing damage.

 

[bgd]

It is no doubt gaining something incorrect for alignment be it the internal
parts or torque dispersal on the body. to say it is aligned while static is
not the same as applying the motions of torque. I bet it is the accident at
the source, compensation for anything bent has to be overcompensated to
return to normal, or stay straight under stress unless the original shapes
integrity never challenged. I learned this silently on an old subaru that I
did unibody work myself on. Could measure til no tomorrow, but over
compensation was a must - to be normal while driving.Not to mention what
takes awhile to catch up. It is like steel has a memory and relapses.

 

[AS]

hmmm, I do not think that the alignment has anything to do with it. I
have driven cars after an accident for hundreds of miles with the tires
squealing against the pavement for hundreds of miles, (i had to get to
my destination). After the car was repaired,without replacing hubs or
bearings, it ran for thousands of miles without a problem. Just my
grain of salt

 

[bgd]

that is an obvious injury...
never hurt transaxles heh? squealing for hundreds of miles? Do you do drugs
and drive?
something is snapping torque around, wheels are always final output. I
broke a unibody after a stressful 4x4 trip. tires never squealed. And
furthermore with subaru being independent all the way around. these problems
can stay elusively precise. I don't know how traction control works or if
the vehicle has it, maybe that could be a possible target. obvious stuff is
ruled out already... an accident can be tricky.