Timing Belt

[bigjimpack]

Chains are far better. Even with all the parts the failure rate is so
low as to be negligible. Chains usually last the life of the engine
or at least several 100k. I drove a 73 Mercury Montego with 351W and
never noticed chain noise. On a Subaru 4 cyl who would notice that
either? Belts are an easy way to make an extra $500-1000 on the
price of a vehicle.

 

[AS]

Forgot to mention the $$ the manuf. gets selling tensioners, idlers,
covers (rusted screws dislodge nut inserts from cover) and of course the
labor $$ the dealers get.

The group that loves timing belts the most is mechanics.

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

I drove a 73 Mercury Montego with 351W and
never noticed chain noise.

You probably couldn't hear it over the pushrods. <G>

What rpm range did the 351W do most of it's operation at?

I've never had a chain fail, but I've had them get worn sloppy, as
well as had a tensioner fail. The broken tensioner let the chain slip
all kinds of teeth.

 

[nobody >]

You probably couldn't hear it over the pushrods. <G>

What rpm range did the 351W do most of it's operation at?

I've never had a chain fail, but I've had them get worn sloppy, as
well as had a tensioner fail. The broken tensioner let the chain slip
all kinds of teeth.

I had a '74 Ford pickup with a 302W that had so much timing chain
stretch at 20K miles that it was slapping the cover. It sounded like a
rod knock it was so bad.

 

[JD]

Hmmm,
It is lighter, costs less.

Its also quieter and allows for lightweight components

 

[JD]

Then you can shell it out up front for the more expensive engine because of
heavier components and the chain; nothing is free.

 

[JD]

And if they used chains with the heavier parts, extra lubrication and cost
of the chain, the car would probably cost an extra... $500-$1000. Nothing
is free.


Chains are far better. Even with all the parts the failure rate is so
low as to be negligible. Chains usually last the life of the engine
or at least several 100k. I drove a 73 Mercury Montego with 351W and
never noticed chain noise. On a Subaru 4 cyl who would notice that
either? Belts are an easy way to make an extra $500-1000 on the
price of a vehicle.

 

[bigjimpack]

How would a chain make it more expensive? The Suzuki SX4 states
timing chain on the sticker and a loaded AWD version is <$19k. A car
at that price point isnt likely to use anything more expensive than it
needs to be. How much heavier? Eight ounces? Whoaaaaaaa! Belts are
nothing but a scam to create more maintenance costs for consumers. I
see no benefits and those who do are usually mechanics who love
getting $500 to swap a $40 belt.

 

[JD]

The chain is only one of the heavier components. More metal in the
components makes them more expensive. Add up all the markups and the
addition of the parts and you'll end up paying the same with no additional
benefit. Nothing is free; nothing. You pay for it one way or the other.
One is visible, the other is not. Your choice.

How would a chain make it more expensive? The Suzuki SX4 states
timing chain on the sticker and a loaded AWD version is <$19k. A car
at that price point isnt likely to use anything more expensive than it
needs to be. How much heavier? Eight ounces? Whoaaaaaaa! Belts are
nothing but a scam to create more maintenance costs for consumers. I
see no benefits and those who do are usually mechanics who love
getting $500 to swap a $40 belt.

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

The chain is only one of the heavier components. More metal in the
components makes them more expensive.

I always thought it was precision.

Look at printer and copier mechanisms, precision industrial robots,
etc...

They use toothed belts in place of chains.

Chains are sloppy.

 

[JD]

I always thought it was precision.

Look at printer and copier mechanisms, precision industrial robots,
etc...

They use toothed belts in place of chains.

Chains are sloppy.

It could very well be. I'm sure you're right. However, my point is that it
isn't just a big maintenance rip-off; there is a trade-off somewhere and you
will pay for that trade-off one way or another.

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

It could very well be. I'm sure you're right. However, my point is that it
isn't just a big maintenance rip-off; there is a trade-off somewhere and you
will pay for that trade-off one way or another.

I agree.

 

[bigjimpack]

I don't. There is no reason except to rip off consumers to use
belts. Some innovations are good. Timing belts are not. My next
vehicle will not have one.

 

[alf]

I don't. There is no reason except to rip off

rip off? $300 is is tiny % of costs associated with hitting 100K miles
mark:
$600 - oil changes
$1000 - tires
$15000 - gas

A.

 

[StephenW]

I agree.

I agree too.
In my opinion, a timing chain cover leaks more often and costs a lot more to
repair. Some belts are a PITA and others are easy. I've seen timing chain
tensioners in Nissans fail, and with a chain the manufactures always seem to
have interference heads, so as well as the head damage, you have metal and
plastic in the oil. The engineers do many things we wonder about, but
designing an engine around "getting more maintenance" doesn't seem to be one
of them.
When I chose my wife's car, belt or not was not even a choice.
I wanted a 4 cyl over a 6. Repairs are cheaper when you can get your hand
into the engine.
It was going to be a camery and the 2.2 was a great engine. Non
interference, easy belt to change, but the Toyotas have changed to the 2,4
with a chain. Also is the new VVIT, where the timing gear on a cam can vary
for emissions/performance. No EGR system, and those can be a PITA. But some
other cars have had some issues with cam timing, so give up the reliable
belt to a unproven chain. I had to rely on the Toyota name, and it's been a
good car. Wouldn't care if it had a belt.
We could take this same argument and look at belt/chain/shaft drive on
motorcycles. Lots of trade off for each one

Anyway, my 2 cents,


--
Steve
ASE Master Tech
L1 Diag
Currently residing at a Subaru Shop
4.5 years doing tires and alighnments

 

[StephenW]

I was curious to reasons why engeneers wouls use one over the other and
found this.
From
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=pht20020901bd&cccid=4&scccid=5

There are many more advantages to a belt-drive system than ease of use. A
belt drive can increase power over a timing chain through less frictional
loss, more precise timing, smoother valvetrain motion and eliminating
windage caused by the timing chain and gears running in oil. A belt drive
also isolates the crankshaft's torsional vibrations from the camshaft better
than a chain (and certainly better than gear drives, which can amplify crank
harmonics). Think of it as a second harmonic damper for the rotating
assembly. And with all that engine builders are doing to stabilize
cylinder-to-cylinder camshaft timing, such as larger-diameter cams, doesn't
it make sense to do what you can to precisely phase the camshaft to the
crankshaft?

 

[bigjimpack]

EVERY car needs the oil, gas, tires etc. There is NO need to add an
extra $500 for a timing belt change which will end up being more for
those who change it 2x or more or those fools who buy vehicles that
need a belt change at 60k.

 

[JD]

Then you should probably buy a low-performance, cheap car with a timing
chain. That way you can use regular gas, cheap parts, etc. Its all false
economy. But there is no conspiracy here. They have advantages building
cars in one way or another, and those advantages are either reduced cost,
better performance or whatever else. There are trade-offs and you get what
you pay for; no more, no less.

EVERY car needs the oil, gas, tires etc. There is NO need to add an
extra $500 for a timing belt change which will end up being more for
those who change it 2x or more or those fools who buy vehicles that
need a belt change at 60k.

 

[bigjimpack]

Next vehicle will likely be an Xterra or Wrangler. Both have chains
so I wont have to shell out the $500 to fix it. One has a LIFETIME
powertrain warranty so even if the chain goes at 400k miles it's
free. No I dont buy "cheap" vehicles thank you. I buy reasonable
vehicles that provide long service. The premium gas thing is a
complete scam and even if I bought a vehicle that "required" it (not
likely) I'd use regular gas and have NO problems.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Next vehicle will likely be an Xterra or Wrangler. Both have chains
so I wont have to shell out the $500 to fix it. One has a LIFETIME
powertrain warranty so even if the chain goes at 400k miles it's
free. No I dont buy "cheap" vehicles thank you. I buy reasonable
vehicles that provide long service. The premium gas thing is a
complete scam and even if I bought a vehicle that "required" it (not
likely) I'd use regular gas and have NO problems.

Well, let's see here; The timing chain equipped H6 3.0 Soob engines (to
my knowledge)all recommend premium fuel. The 4 cyl Soob engines ALL have
timing belts.

So....I guess you have no reason to post to this group anymore.


Carl