Oil in spark plug sleeves

[Fred Boer]

Hi!

Today I had my 2002 Subaru Legacy Wagon (150,000km) into my local mechanic
(dealership is too far away for anything but big stuff...) to replace a worn
belt. It had been running rough at idle so I asked him to see if maybe I
needed the spark plugs replaced or perhaps have a tune up. When he pulled
the plugs all four spark plug sleeves were full of oil. The ignition wires
were also oil soaked. About 25,000 km ago I had the head gaskets replaced at
a dealership. My local guy suspects a gasket of some sort may have been put
in wrong when head gaskets were done.

I am totally non-mechanical. Any comments or suggestions before I talk
to/take it back to the dealership?

Thanks!

 

[Todd H.]

Hi!

Today I had my 2002 Subaru Legacy Wagon (150,000km) into my local mechanic
(dealership is too far away for anything but big stuff...) to replace a worn
belt. It had been running rough at idle so I asked him to see if maybe I
needed the spark plugs replaced or perhaps have a tune up. When he pulled
the plugs all four spark plug sleeves were full of oil.

Been there, seen that on my 01. *sigh*

The ignition wires were also oil soaked. About 25,000 km ago I had
the head gaskets replaced at a dealership. My local guy suspects a
gasket of some sort may have been put in wrong when head gaskets
were done.

I am totally non-mechanical. Any comments or suggestions before I talk
to/take it back to the dealership?

My guy Dx'd the likely cause as valve cover seals when discovering oil
on the plug boots. Of course we also discovered an internal head
gasket breach at the same time, so the heads went to the machine shop
and we had new gaskets a plenty. No problem after all that of course.


Dont' let the local guy do anything more. It's now worth the drive to
the dealership. Have them test your catalytic converter too. A
theory I haven't been able to independently substantiate is that
increase in back force from a failed cat can lead to valve cover
gasket failure, which then gives you your oil on plug wires problem.

Misfires (consistent with rough running at idle) can lead to raw fuel
being thrown down the exhaust pipe which will apparently hasten a
catalytic converter's demise, so it all seems plausible.

Don't get stuck getting thigns done at an independent like I
did... unless he's waist deep in your engine, get your car back and
get it to a sbuaru dealer, and perhaps follow up with a call to the
800 number for sube customer service and let them know what's going
on and that it's at one of their dealers to fix what appears to be a
screw up on the part of one of their dealers, or collateral damage to
a headgasket issue, or all the above.

Best Regards,

 

[Fred Boer]

Thanks. Though most of that is Greek to me!

I will print it out and keep it handy. I have an appointment already at the
dealership.

Though tempted, I will spare you the litany of expensive problems I've had
with my Subie over the last year or two. Suffice it to say that it has cost
thousands of dollars, and many, many visits to mechanics and dealerships...

 

[Todd H.]

Thanks. Though most of that is Greek to me!

I will print it out and keep it handy. I have an appointment already at the
dealership.

Though tempted, I will spare you the litany of expensive problems I've had
with my Subie over the last year or two. Suffice it to say that it has cost
thousands of dollars, and many, many visits to mechanics and
dealerships...

No, please tell. It may lend insight into the present issue.


As for de greekification, the valve cover is thing you can see on the
outside of the engine. The spark plug boots go down into circular
holes in teh valve cover. The valve cover gasket is an oval thingee
than seals that valve cover to the head of the engine. It's called a
valve cover because if you take it off, you'll see the valve train of
the engine which controls the opening and closing of the exhaust and
air intake valves on the cylinders.

Catalytic converter is a bulge in your exhaust pipe that helps
catalyze some chemical reactions that results in cleaner stuff coming
out the tailpipe. It's an expensive thingee that doesn't like having
raw gasoline thrown at it. If it plugs up and deteriorates inside,
it creates more backpressure to the engine, so when the engine is
pushing exhaust out, the cylinders have to push harder. This strains
seals, and may lead them to fail and allow say, oil to squirt past em
(if my mechanic's story is to be believed).

Misfires are when the spark and fuel get together in teh cylinder, but
for whatever reason, no explosion occurs. Spark plug doesn't fire,
fuel injector clogged and there's no enough fuel, not enough air
getting into the chamber, the whole fire needs fuel, air, and heat
thing we learned in science class. When a misfires are occurring,
the engine will stumble on acceleration, or feel rough at idles, etc.
If there's a misfire due to a spark plug not firing, instead of the
cylinder having a nice little explosion, you just have teh fuel
injector spraying gas in there, and without and explosion that
vaporized fuel just gets pushed out the exhaust valve into the exhaust
pipe and on the way down to the catalytic converter...which doesn't
like dealing with raw gasoline.

Best Regards,

 

[Fred Boer]

Well, ok... But I am not sure if I can recall the whole list off the top of
my head..

Well, biggest was head gaskets...

Car was overheating.
Tried new radiator cap, no, thermostat, no radiator flush, no.
Then finally to dealership...confirmed head gaskets, both replaced.
Still continued to have overheating problems. More visits.
Finally, new radiator (my cost).

There was also a CEL problem...
This took maybe 10 visits in all, 2 or three to local guy - resetting cel,
trying gas cap, etc.
Then to dealership... resetting cel... then finally diagnosed corroded
wiring harness somewhere around rear wheel well.

Also, but probably unrelated....

Several visits over time about shuddering steering. Also, horrible whining
sound when starting cold. Diagnosed as failed/failing power steering pump.
Replaced. Still whines when cold. Disappears after a minute or so. I am
living with this one...
Some big expensive suspension thing.. Ball joint? Sorry I can't recall
correctly.
Oxygen sensor.
Light burned out on dashboard.. living with that one...
Also, currently the car creaks like an old rocking chair. Local guy has
lubricated, but not fixed yet I think.


Thanks for the deGeekification!!

Fred

 

[Todd H.]

Well, ok... But I am not sure if I can recall the whole list off the top of
my head..

Well, biggest was head gaskets...

Car was overheating.
Tried new radiator cap, no, thermostat, no radiator flush, no.
Then finally to dealership...confirmed head gaskets, both replaced.
Still continued to have overheating problems. More visits.
Finally, new radiator (my cost).

Bejesus. Wow. These cars are notiously difficult to "burp" to
eliminate air in the cooling system. I wonder if an inexpeienced non
subie guy did a coolant flush at some point before all that. But
you'd think the dealer would have gotten it right when they did the
head gaskets. Oy. What a mess.

There was also a CEL problem...
This took maybe 10 visits in all, 2 or three to local guy - resetting cel,
trying gas cap, etc.
Then to dealership... resetting cel... then finally diagnosed corroded
wiring harness somewhere around rear wheel well.

Wiring to the evaporative pressure sensor in the gas tank presumably.
yikes. First time I've heard of that failure mode too.

Also, but probably unrelated....

Several visits over time about shuddering steering. Also, horrible whining
sound when starting cold. Diagnosed as failed/failing power steering pump.
Replaced. Still whines when cold. Disappears after a minute or so. I am
living with this one...

My word...

Some big expensive suspension thing.. Ball joint? Sorry I can't recall
correctly.

CV joint perhaps. If the boots get torn, joint gets dirty and you
start hearing bad noises when making sharp turns? That's a guess.
Those suck too.

Oxygen sensor.

Been there.

Light burned out on dashboard.. living with that one...
Also, currently the car creaks like an old rocking chair. Local guy has
lubricated, but not fixed yet I think.

I have a rear strut too that sound like it needs replacement.

How many miles you have on this pain in yer butt? Mine's at about
112k.

 

[Fred Boer]

Dear Todd:

My car has 150,000 km. Everyone else I know talks about their Subarus having
200,000 or 275,000 or more kms and "never anything but oil changes and
brakes"... Sigh.

And this was going to be the "One Good Car" I was ever going to own. There
is still so much I really, really like about this car - it's just the right
size, it isn't a gas guzzler, the four wheel drive is great, the brakes are
the best on any car I've ever owned. It had just the luxury features I
wanted, but nothing to excess: remote door locks, ABS brakes, thermometer in
the dash, electric mirrors... It rides nicely, handles well, the engine revs
entertainingly, and it is comfortable and fun to drive. The stereo sounds
fine. The interior is simple, and functional. I like the slightly quirky
nature of the car. Heck, I even think it looks great! I like it more than
the new Legacy I've driven, which seems cramped to me...

But, but, but.... the reliability that everyone else seems to have is not
there for me. I haven't, of course, mentioned routine costs in the last
couple of years... 4 new tires, a cracked windshield, various little issues
around brakes etc.. Much of these sorts of costs are to be expected, and
can't be blamed on Subaru - but *man* they do add up.... The costs of my
Subie far outstrip any other car I've owned. And it was my last shot...
after this Subie, I was forced to buy the dreaded minivan. Yuck. It's a
Sienna. It's a fine minivan. No complaints. Totally reliable so far. Great
on those long vacation car trips with the wife and kids. But I really hate
it. It seems as big as a bus and I can't feel the road. I'm always
stretching my neck like a chicken trying to manouver it about.

So what's your saga?

 

[Todd H.]

Dear Todd:

My car has 150,000 km. Everyone else I know talks about their Subarus having
200,000 or 275,000 or more kms and "never anything but oil changes and
brakes"... Sigh.

I have the subaru with the big solid black circle under "engine major"
on it in the Consumer Reports Used Car guide.

And sadly, so do you. 2001 and 2002 were baaaad years. Lucky
us huh?

But, but, but.... the reliability that everyone else seems to have is not
there for me. I haven't, of course, mentioned routine costs in the last
couple of years... 4 new tires, a cracked windshield, various little issues
around brakes etc.. Much of these sorts of costs are to be expected, and
can't be blamed on Subaru - but *man* they do add up.... The costs of my
Subie far outstrip any other car I've owned.

Yup. They are expensive for routine maintenance. I learned this this
year too. I had $2200 of preventive/scheduled/wear crap done and that
was a few months BEFORE the head gasket was discovered.

And it was my last shot... after this Subie, I was forced to buy
the dreaded minivan. Yuck. It's a Sienna. It's a fine minivan. No
complaints. Totally reliable so far. Great on those long vacation
car trips with the wife and kids. But I really hate it. It seems as
big as a bus and I can't feel the road. I'm always stretching my
neck like a chicken trying to manouver it about.

So what's your saga?

I love questions I can answer with a URL:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....read/thread/955c5da88a4eb196/a58f4be2cb848151


There is no Subaru glow of reliability in my world.


Best Regards,

 

[Chicobiker]

Light burned out on dashboard.. living with that one...

Yep. A couple of mine are burnt out. I forgot to take the dash apart
last weekend when I had time. Maybe next weekend.

Also, currently the car creaks like an old rocking chair. Local guy has
lubricated, but not fixed yet I think.

My bad creak went away when I got my rear struts replaced a week or so
ago.

I have a 2003 Outback Sport with 150,000 kms.

Chicobiker

 

[Fred Boer]

How much did the struts cost?

 

[fred.boer]

Oh MAN! What a story! I see my future with this issue flashing in
front of my eyes. And it ain't a pretty sight!!

Car goes in on Friday - I'll let you know how it goes!

Fred

 

[.._..]

Several visits over time about shuddering steering. Also, horrible whining
sound when starting cold. Diagnosed as failed/failing power steering pump.
Replaced. Still whines when cold. Disappears after a minute or so. I am
living with this one...

That's a belt or the alternator going bad if it sounds like a large hydrolic
pump working hard. (The only thing I know that sounds just like it is the
point in the Terminator movie when armor-chasis get's crushed at the end of
the movie.)

Mine did that, and eventually the alternator failed completely.

 

[fred.boer]

The whining is more like a dentist's drill, high pitched, shrill... I
believe the new power steering pump (at over $500.00 to fix) has
solved the shuddering. Just had the belts checked and replaced -
actually that was what the car was in for...

Thanks a lot!
Fred

 

[Bugalugs]

The whining is more like a dentist's drill, high pitched, shrill... I
believe the new power steering pump (at over $500.00 to fix) has
solved the shuddering. Just had the belts checked and replaced -
actually that was what the car was in for...

Thanks a lot!
Fred

When the car is cold and the belts are loose you'll get a high pitched
whine/squeak on startup.

Belt adjustment fixes it.

 

[fred.boer]

Thanks! I will add it to the list for the dealership to try to resolve
once and for all!

Fred

 

[Chicobiker]

How much did the struts cost?

Subaru OEM struts were something like $300 cdn each side. Got KYBs
for about $180 each, and with labour & taxes it cost me $600.

 

[Bob Noble]

One day I put eight sacks of cement in my car and after, it squawked like
mad in the back, every time the car moved a little.
I squirted some thirty weight oil on the shock rods and all those bad noises
went away. The rods where just dry. When I put all the weight in it, it
brought the dry dirty shock rod down where it hadn't been in a long time and
started all this. The rods are at the top, so any oil on them will run down
to where they enter the shock.
Cheap repair.

 

[Fred Boer]

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Fred Boer]

Hi Todd, et. al.:

Well, it went into the dealership and I have the answers - lets go from
worst to first...

1. Whining noise - they say a belt wasn't tight enough. I don't believe it
but I can't be sure until I try it when it is below freezing and I start the
cold engine. The jury is still out on this one...

2. Creaking noise - a suspension bushing. Bushing is $40.00 or so, plus 3
hours(!) of shop time to install it. $450.00 to stop the creaking noise.
They say that it won't affect function of suspension, but would stop the
noise. I am going to turn the radio up, drown out the creaking and live with
it...

3. Oil in spark plug sleeves. Well, yes, that is happening due to failed
seals. They *could* fix it to the tune of oh, $500.00 or so... BUT..... wait
for it........................... there isn't much point............ since I
need to replace.......................you guessed it.......... the head
gaskets! AGAIN!! And the service manager SWEARS that THIS time the fix will
be permanent....

In the grand scheme of life, of course, this is a small thing. But within
the limits of that perspective, I am furious about this and, simultaneously,
full of dispirited resignation. I just *knew* it was going to be yet another
huge repair.

 

[Bugalugs]

Hi Todd, et. al.:

Well, it went into the dealership and I have the answers - lets go from
worst to first...

1. Whining noise - they say a belt wasn't tight enough. I don't believe it
but I can't be sure until I try it when it is below freezing and I start the
cold engine. The jury is still out on this one...

Easyfix, loosen the alternator bolt, use a large screwdriver to lever
out the alternator to put more tension on the belt, tighten bolt.
2-n-a-half minutes.

2. Creaking noise - a suspension bushing. Bushing is $40.00 or so, plus 3
hours(!) of shop time to install it. $450.00 to stop the creaking noise.
They say that it won't affect function of suspension, but would stop the
noise. I am going to turn the radio up, drown out the creaking and live with
it...

3. Oil in spark plug sleeves. Well, yes, that is happening due to failed
seals. They *could* fix it to the tune of oh, $500.00 or so... BUT..... wait
for it........................... there isn't much point............ since I
need to replace.......................you guessed it.......... the head
gaskets! AGAIN!! And the service manager SWEARS that THIS time the fix will
be permanent....

As this is a "known" problem which they have "fixed" before can you get
them to 'wear' the labour while you 'wear' the parts??