Hybrid Subaru engine?

[mac]

There's a reference on autoweek.com with some info on a subaru hybrid at
Tokyo auto show

fwiw, any car co NOT looking into this has their head in the sand.

"Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. will be among those showing a new hybrid system.

The maker of Subaru cars gave a peek at its new powertrain at a technology
showcase held on Oct. 6 by General Motors, which owns 20 percent of Fuji
Heavy. Fuji's hybrid mates a 100-kilowatt electric motor to a 2.0-liter
engine. "

 

[Dan Duncan]

what about the pollutants required to recarge these beauties?

What on earth are you talking about? Hybrid cars don't require charging.
They run on gasoline. Are you thinking of electric cars?

the only way to accurately value total pollution output is on a
well-to-wheels basis.

Correct. A car that gets 50mpg generally produces less pollution
than one that gets 30mpg.

Ford has a motor for the Focus that is cleaner than a Prius when calculated
well-to-wheel. California agrees and grants is a zero pollution rating.
the engine just happens to have more torque and not much less hp than a svt!

Cool.

-DanD

 

[Dan Duncan]

I suppose the basic questions come down to "can I afford that level of
efficiency?" and "Am I willing to live with the levels of comfort and
convenience that come with that level of efficiency?" If the answer to
both questions is "yes" then one begins to move in that direction.

The 2004 Toyota Prius (Motor Trend's car of the year) has an MSRP of
$20,510 and you should get a tax rebate from the feds and possibly
your state of $3k or more. If you can't afford that, you probably
aren't shopping for a new car. It qualifies as mid-size rather than
compact. It's quite comfortable (opinions vary) and offers features
like Bluetooth and the ability to disarm the alarm, lock the door,
and start the car without having to take your keys out of your pocket.
If you get the optional voice-activated DVD navigation system, it will
even parallel park itself for you. (Does that meet your standard of
convenience?)

Since I consider reliability to be a major factor in "cost" then I'd also
want to know more of the unknown costs of maintaining such a vehicle. I've
replaced a Nickel metal hydride battery in my phone for $60 and wonder about
the cost and reliability of a NiMH battery sized to power a car? An
uneducated guess would be several thousand dollars. But it is an unknown
(to me), as is the expected battery life.
I do not care how attractive the car is, or how efficient it might be.
Before I invest $25K in a car, I'd have to know a lot more about such
factors as reliability and costs of maintenance.

Well, let's see... the hybrid components have an 8yr/100,000mile warranty,
and that includes the batteries. The rest of the powertrain has a
5yr/60,000mile warranty. The rest of the car has a 3yr/36,000mile warranty.
(I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you an extended warranty)

-DanD

 

[GTT]

The 2004 Toyota Prius (Motor Trend's car of the year) has an MSRP of
$20,510 and you should get a tax rebate from the feds and possibly
your state of $3k or more. If you can't afford that, you probably
aren't shopping for a new car. It qualifies as mid-size rather than
compact. It's quite comfortable (opinions vary) and offers features
like Bluetooth and the ability to disarm the alarm, lock the door,
and start the car without having to take your keys out of your pocket.
If you get the optional voice-activated DVD navigation system, it will
even parallel park itself for you. (Does that meet your standard of
convenience?)

Addressing the comfort and convenience factor, probably not. I've driven
"mid-size cars" that have less room than my Forester. As you so accurately
noted, "opinions vary".

I'll pass on the "parallel park itself" comment.
Even the Queen Mary or a Boeing 777 can't do that.

Dan, your reply struck me as very "Madison Avenue." It leaves a lot unsaid.
In my experience, leaving things unsaid usually means the answer does
not support the desired conclusion.

You appear to be suggesting that for a mere $20,510, I can get all that I
could possibly desire.

Why do I doubt that? Well, when you reach a certain age, you've probably
heard many sales pitches and you simply learn to pass up on some offers that
sound too good to be true. At least, I have.

What WOULD the cost of a fully-equipped car be? Didn't see that.

In my earlier post, I wondered about the cost of replacing one of the large
NiMH
batteries. But I did not see any figure on the cost of a replacement
battery,either.
These cars DO require a large capacity battery, or do they?

In fact, there is so much to try to extract from the current fervor to pitch
hybrids that I suspect it will be wise for anyone to simply wait for an
experience factor that better suggest the total cost and whether the car
will keep its promises.

Too, I just bought an '04 XS Forester and am quite pleased. It was a tad
over $20K, but I believe I can estimate maintenance costs on the Forester
for a 10 year period.

I doubt anyone can give me a reasonably accurate estimate on the other one.
Even if the extended warranty is taken, it would not only be very costly,
and it would likely terminate before I plan to. My hearing "it has a
great warranty" and "you can get an extended warranty" does not allay my
fears on the specific costs of maintenance for a 10 year period.

Well, let's see... the hybrid components have an 8yr/100,000mile warranty,
and that includes the batteries. The rest of the powertrain has a
5yr/60,000mile warranty. The rest of the car has a 3yr/36,000mile warranty.
(I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you an extended warranty)

Oh everyone is happy to sell me an extended warranty! All it takes is
money. My money! And that is what I'm trying to watch.

Would that be battery replacement on a "pro-rated" basis, by any chance?
Or can I get one from Sam's?

And if I might leap ahead a bit, what would those batteries cost after the
8yr/100,000 warranty period has elapsed? Will they even be available
commercially at a reasonable cost? Does anyone know?

I'd go through that warranty 100,000 miles in about 5-6 years. THen what?

No, thanks. Too many factors are as yet unknown. But, maybe I'm just not
a 'living-on-the-edge" sort of guy. Obviously, some folks are. I'll let
them have the experience first.

Dan, which hybrid did you buy, and how do you like it?
How is it performing in the very cold weather you've been having lately?

 

[LC]

I think my current Toyota Prius and my former Forester (was new when I
bought in 99) are two entirely different kinds of cars. I loved my
Forester, until I drove a Prius. Forester was in the body shop for a week
and I rented a Prius. At the end of the week, I wanted to sell my Forester
and did when the 02 Prius came out. The Forester felt very solid, and it
was nice to know the all-wheel drive was there if needed. Other than that,
much more comfortable sitting position in the Prius, and a much quieter car.
The reason I am willing to put up with the unknowns are far as maintenance
over the long haul is that the car appeals to my environmental sense. Up to
90% less emissions, and I am averaging 45 mpg in winter and 51 in summer. I
have a 33 mile drive to work every day with no public transportion options,
so feel better driving the Prius, just because those are my values. If
someone doesn't have those values, then it might not work for them. We
still have 2 Subarus in the family, btw.

LC

 

[Dan Duncan]

Addressing the comfort and convenience factor, probably not. I've driven
"mid-size cars" that have less room than my Forester. As you so accurately
noted, "opinions vary".

Of course. You probably can't take anyone's word for how comfortable
a car is until you drive it yourself.

I'll pass on the "parallel park itself" comment.
Even the Queen Mary or a Boeing 777 can't do that.

I don't even necessarily think it's the greatest idea. I don't
think we should encourage people who can't park a car to
start driving. There NEEDS to be a learning curve and clearly it
isn't steep enough now because 44,000 people die each year
in car crashes in the US.

Dan, your reply struck me as very "Madison Avenue." It leaves a lot unsaid.
In my experience, leaving things unsaid usually means the answer does
not support the desired conclusion.

Ouch. I'm an engineer. I hate sales and marketing people.

You appear to be suggesting that for a mere $20,510, I can get all that I
could possibly desire.

Of course not. You asked for comfort, convenience, and reliability.

Why do I doubt that? Well, when you reach a certain age, you've probably
heard many sales pitches and you simply learn to pass up on some offers that
sound too good to be true. At least, I have.

I don't talk to sales people. I do my own research and then tolerate
the oily presence of the car salesman because it's the easiest way
to get a test drive. I find that most of the sales people know less
than I do about the car. The only exceptions have been the sales
people I actually bought cars from.

What WOULD the cost of a fully-equipped car be? Didn't see that.

Dunno. It's probably in there somewhere. Try the build your own
car option on the website.

In my earlier post, I wondered about the cost of replacing one of the large
NiMH
batteries. But I did not see any figure on the cost of a replacement
battery,either.
These cars DO require a large capacity battery, or do they?

Yes, it's nearly a 300V unit. The waranty covers it until 8/100k or
more. I don't know what it will cost to replace.

In fact, there is so much to try to extract from the current fervor to pitch
hybrids that I suspect it will be wise for anyone to simply wait for an
experience factor that better suggest the total cost and whether the car
will keep its promises.

I'm still waiting for the designs to meet my approval before I buy one.

Too, I just bought an '04 XS Forester and am quite pleased. It was a tad
over $20K, but I believe I can estimate maintenance costs on the Forester
for a 10 year period.

I have a 2003 XS Forester. Love it.

I doubt anyone can give me a reasonably accurate estimate on the other one.
Even if the extended warranty is taken, it would not only be very costly,
and it would likely terminate before I plan to. My hearing "it has a
great warranty" and "you can get an extended warranty" does not allay my
fears on the specific costs of maintenance for a 10 year period.

Since none of them are 10 years old, I doubt anyone can tell you.

Oh everyone is happy to sell me an extended warranty! All it takes is
money. My money! And that is what I'm trying to watch.

Would that be battery replacement on a "pro-rated" basis, by any chance?
Or can I get one from Sam's?

There are mods posted online that use a replacement battery from Sears.

And if I might leap ahead a bit, what would those batteries cost after the
8yr/100,000 warranty period has elapsed? Will they even be available
commercially at a reasonable cost? Does anyone know?

Presumably the demand will be there, since lots of people are buying them,
and other manufacturers are about to launch hybrids (Ford Escape, Saturn VUE)
in the next couple of years, so batteries will probably be available.
Better batteries or even fuel cells might even be available as replacements,
but I'm speculating.

I'd go through that warranty 100,000 miles in about 5-6 years. THen what?

Unless the batteries die the second you hit 100k, I assume you'd keep
driving until they needed replacement and you'd replace them.

No, thanks. Too many factors are as yet unknown. But, maybe I'm just not
a 'living-on-the-edge" sort of guy. Obviously, some folks are. I'll let
them have the experience first.

Dan, which hybrid did you buy, and how do you like it?
How is it performing in the very cold weather you've been having lately?

I haven't yet bought a hybrid because my current car is still running
fine and the current crop of commercially available hybrids don't
meet my idea of what a true hybrid should be. I am looking seriously
at the 2004 Prius (many changes in the right direction, IMHO) and
may go that way in a year or so when I need a new car. I would put
100k on the car in about 3 years, so I'm also concerned about
the battery replacement issue.

-DanD

 

[-rick-]

Since none of them are 10 years old, I doubt anyone can tell you.

There is a thing called accelerated life testing. In an ideal world results
would be available.

-rick-

 

[GTT]

Now THIS is the sort of comment that drives me to seriously consider the
Prius.

I've never heard from an owner who had comments like this. Thanks, LC, it
helps me move a bit in my intransigence to new ideas. Those sorts of
opinions from a user are worth my consideration. I am moved more by the
economy than the environmental aspect, but that is worth consideration as
well, and both are related.

As to being environmentally concerned, I am ... BUT. My concern is
limited, and tempered by this strange idea that most of the
"environmentalists" who are quoted in the media are merely folks with an
agenda who "use" facts and statistics to further that agenda. I still
haven't made up my own mind as to whether there really IS a "global warming"
or an ozone problem. The scientists who do not agree with all of that are
RARELY quoted in media. I still wonder why. Are they wrong or does their
message just not sell papers? Jury is out, here. I guess I am very
cynical. The things I've seen in my life have had that effect on my
attitudes.

Thanks again for your positive note!

 

[GTT]

I haven't yet bought a hybrid because my current car is still running
fine and the current crop of commercially available hybrids don't
meet my idea of what a true hybrid should be. I am looking seriously
at the 2004 Prius (many changes in the right direction, IMHO) and
may go that way in a year or so when I need a new car. I would put
100k on the car in about 3 years, so I'm also concerned about
the battery replacement issue.

-DanD

Okay, Dan!

Boy, between you and the previous poster, I am having more serious thoughts
about a Prius! What you've said here sounds a lot more honest than the
impression I got from your first few posts. (Dear Engineer: Sorry about
that Madison Ave crack. But that was the reading I was getting from it. <g>)
I'm not an environmentalist, more of an economist, and I share your attitude
toward salesmen. When they start their spiel, I start my nap.

We happened to get a very good one when I bought the Forester, he knew his
business, his car, and he knew when to step out and go back inside the
building! He also knew how to get a better price for me than I had
expected to get! About a $250 better price!

But if I'm still alive when we need another car ... we'll see what gives.
This Forester will probably last longer than I will, but nothing is for
certain in this life, right? I will take a much closer look at the Prius
now!

 

[Dan Duncan]

As to being environmentally concerned, I am ... BUT. My concern is
limited, and tempered by this strange idea that most of the
"environmentalists" who are quoted in the media are merely folks with an
agenda who "use" facts and statistics to further that agenda. I still
haven't made up my own mind as to whether there really IS a "global warming"
or an ozone problem. The scientists who do not agree with all of that are
RARELY quoted in media. I still wonder why. Are they wrong or does their
message just not sell papers? Jury is out, here. I guess I am very
cynical. The things I've seen in my life have had that effect on my
attitudes.

In my experience, most of the people who tout themselves as environmentalists
have little to no scientific background. They talk about things
like emissions, pollutants, the carbon cycle, ozone, or global warming
with no understanding of what any of it really means. If you get
a chance, check out the environmental episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit.
They ask some pretty prominent environmental people some fairly basic
questions about the science behind their particular areas of concern
and they're clueless. They also interview the founder of Greenpeace
and he's one sharp guy. Unfortunately, he has left Greenpeace because
it's been taken over by morons with no scientific background who want
to use feelings instead of science in their attempt to understand
the environment. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-DanD

 

[GTT]

In my experience, most of the people who tout themselves as environmentalists
have little to no scientific background. They talk about things
like emissions, pollutants, the carbon cycle, ozone, or global warming
with no understanding of what any of it really means. If you get
a chance, check out the environmental episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit.
They ask some pretty prominent environmental people some fairly basic
questions about the science behind their particular areas of concern
and they're clueless. They also interview the founder of Greenpeace
and he's one sharp guy. Unfortunately, he has left Greenpeace because
it's been taken over by morons with no scientific background who want
to use feelings instead of science in their attempt to understand
the environment. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-DanD

From my interpretation of what you say here, I believe we're in agreement.

From my cynical perspective, the approach the current crop of "activists" is
taking is really quite harmful to the common good because I'm sure I'm not
the only reader in America who has elected to simply ignore the common
ravings and rantings of so-called environmentalists.

If they'd work together and present a united front, conclusions that more of
could get behind, I believe more of our societal needs could be met.
Meanwhile, we may be just floundering in a sea of problems which could be
reduced or eliminated.

BTW, I noticed that your .sigs keep changing. Drat, there was one recent
sig that I wanted to take note of, next time I saw it. Oh well, maybe it
will return one day!

 

[Anthony]

In my experience, most of the people who tout themselves as environmentalists
have little to no scientific background. They talk about things
like emissions, pollutants, the carbon cycle, ozone, or global warming
with no understanding of what any of it really means. If you get
a chance, check out the environmental episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit.
They ask some pretty prominent environmental people some fairly basic
questions about the science behind their particular areas of concern
and they're clueless. They also interview the founder of Greenpeace
and he's one sharp guy. Unfortunately, he has left Greenpeace because
it's been taken over by morons with no scientific background who want
to use feelings instead of science in their attempt to understand
the environment. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-DanD

You couldn't be more right but let me add one thing. The next time you meet
an environmentalist ask them how many trees they've planted in their life
(usually none.) Then ask a deer hunter the same question. I think you'll
be at least a little surprised.

Most environmentalist want somebody else to do all the work and make all the
sacrifices.

Tony

 

[Dan Duncan]

From my interpretation of what you say here, I believe we're in agreement.

From my cynical perspective, the approach the current crop of "activists" is
taking is really quite harmful to the common good because I'm sure I'm not
the only reader in America who has elected to simply ignore the common
ravings and rantings of so-called environmentalists.

It gets even worse if you look at the loons at PETA. As if funding
terrorism wasn't bad enough, now they're trying to scare children.

If they'd work together and present a united front, conclusions that more of
could get behind, I believe more of our societal needs could be met.
Meanwhile, we may be just floundering in a sea of problems which could be
reduced or eliminated.
Yep.

BTW, I noticed that your .sigs keep changing. Drat, there was one recent
sig that I wanted to take note of, next time I saw it. Oh well, maybe it
will return one day!

It's automatically (and somewhat randomly) selected each time from a big
file. It may show up again, but no telling when.

-DanD

 

[Dan Duncan]

You couldn't be more right but let me add one thing. The next time you meet
an environmentalist ask them how many trees they've planted in their life
(usually none.) Then ask a deer hunter the same question. I think you'll
be at least a little surprised.

I bet I won't be surprised at all.

Most environmentalist want somebody else to do all the work and make all the
sacrifices.

According to the founder of Greenpeace I mentioned earlier, there
are more trees in the US now than ever due to replanting. Guess
who does the replanting? Hunters are responsible for a lot of
game preservation because if they kill off all the deer, no
more hunting. Ducks Unlimited has preserved a lot of wetlands.

-DanD