Brother-In-Law Puts Down Subaru by Comparing to Dodge Intrepid

[Dan Jensen]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with some
success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things decided to go
after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a 2001 Subaru Legacy
Sedan. Even though he just recently had to get rid of his Dodge Intrepid
due to numerous mechanical problems, he claims that if he hit my car head on
that he would plow over and demolish my Subaru. He claims this is due to
having a big heavy car made of steel. This started me rattle off some of
the safety test and features about Subaru, but he just kept telling me it
was basic physics. I then started trying to explain some of the
engineering behind Subaru when it comes to impacts, but he went back to
telling me that his heavy steel car would still demolish the Subaru. His
final comment was that he claims that his firefighter friends told him that
the have to carry people away from accidents that drive Subarus, where
Intrepid people walk away. I told him that I had been in a Subaru in which
the person driving was forced into a cement wall head on at 50 mph and we
all walked away. He just told me that his firefighter friend has seen more
accidents.

From what I can find on the we so far, the Intrepid is only 200 pounds
heavier. I am very curious if anyone knows what material is used for the
body of an Intrepid and a Subaru. The safety ratings I have found has
shown 5 stars for the Outback and 4 and 5 for the Legacy. The Intrepid is
3 and 4 stars. I have been trying to find stuff on the web, but am very
hopeful to pull thoughts, facts, ideas where to look, responses, etc. from
this group. I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again

 

[Guy Macon]

he claims that if he hit my car head on that he would plow
over and demolish my Subaru. He claims this is due to
having a big heavy car made of steel.

From what I can find on the we so far, the Intrepid is only
200 pounds heavier.

There is your answer right there. If he thinks that 200 Lbs
makes a big difference, kill him and stuff him in the trunk
of yiur subaru to equalize the weight.

I am very curious if anyone knows what material is used for the
body of an Intrepid and a Subaru.

Steel and Steel. Non-steel bodies are still a rarity (Corvette,
Delorian, parts of some Saturns...).

Here is the data you need:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99018.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00005.htm

 

[Frank Logullo]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with some
success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things decided to go
after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a 2001 Subaru Legacy
Sedan.

Two years ago, I recounted story here about woman in Chrysler PT Cruiser
that turned in front of my Forester causing head on collision. I walked
away from it but she remained in hospital with back and chest pains. I had
slight bruise from seat belt but went to hospital for checkup since I take
blood thinners and have arthritic neck - no problems. Besides safety
aspects, Chrysler products don't have longevity of Subaru's.

 

[Kurt C. Hack]

The guy bought a Chrysler product. That should be enough to nullify any
argument that he has. There's a reason Chrysler spends more on
marketing than any other car manufacturer around and it isn't about
safety. Lastly, even if you bring in a physics expert from MIT, you
will never win an argument with ignorant people because they don't know
when they have lost.

-Kurt

 

[Cam Penner]

that he would plow over and demolish my Subaru. He claims this is due to
having a big heavy car made of steel. This started me rattle off some of

A point to note. The weight of the car doesn't give a
particularly good indication of how well it will protect
it's occupants. It gives a much better idea of how well it
will inflict damage on other vehicles though.

The whole point in collision injury prevention isn't "how
much can I hit without denting my car", it's "how can I
disperse the maximum amount of kinetic energy in as long a
time frame as possible". A heavier car must get rid of
more Ke for the same speed as a lighter car. Likewise, a
car that doesn't crumple as well as another doesn't take as
long to get rid of the energy. The shorter the timespan
the energy is dispersed, the more traumatic the stop is on
the passengers.

You need to start banging them against things to measure
this properly.

 

[Jim Stewart]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with some
success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things decided to go
after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a 2001 Subaru Legacy
Sedan. Even though he just recently had to get rid of his Dodge Intrepid
due to numerous mechanical problems, he claims that if he hit my car head on
that he would plow over and demolish my Subaru. He claims this is due to
having a big heavy car made of steel. This started me rattle off some of
the safety test and features about Subaru, but he just kept telling me it
was basic physics. I then started trying to explain some of the
engineering behind Subaru when it comes to impacts, but he went back to
telling me that his heavy steel car would still demolish the Subaru. His
final comment was that he claims that his firefighter friends told him that
the have to carry people away from accidents that drive Subarus, where
Intrepid people walk away. I told him that I had been in a Subaru in which
the person driving was forced into a cement wall head on at 50 mph and we
all walked away. He just told me that his firefighter friend has seen more
accidents.

From what I can find on the we so far, the Intrepid is only 200 pounds
heavier. I am very curious if anyone knows what material is used for the
body of an Intrepid and a Subaru. The safety ratings I have found has
shown 5 stars for the Outback and 4 and 5 for the Legacy. The Intrepid is
3 and 4 stars. I have been trying to find stuff on the web, but am very
hopeful to pull thoughts, facts, ideas where to look, responses, etc. from
this group. I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again

Walk away from pissing contests.

 

[Rick Courtright]

this group. I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again

Hi,

I've been told never to argue with a fool. They'll always win, because
you have to stoop to their level, where they've had a lot more
experience than you...

Arguing car safety in crashes is an inexact science at best. Pure
guesswork at worst. For every crash you see where people walk away from
such metallic destruction as to believe nobody could have survived,
someone's probably seen what looked like a fender bender that produced a
fatality. Constant testing is done at many levels, and the results have
helped all cars become safer over time. So a 2500 lb car made today MAY
be safer in a crash than a 3000 lb car made 10 years ago (and then
again, it may not!)

Yes, a heavier car (all else being equal, which it seldom, if ever, is.
Think of the trade-off with big SUVs that can "drive thru" a little car,
but roll over more easily, etc.) is likely to fare better in a head to
head situation with a lighter one, but there's more than the pure
physics of kinetic energy and momentum involved here. Arguing that with
your brother-in-law sounds like a waste of good air.

Rick

 

[l.lichtman]

Dan Jensen wrote:
(clip) I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I want tp thank you for showing me what MY problem is. I become
obscessed with winning, no matter how pointless or stupid the argument
is. Stop and try to predict the future--can you see him ever admitting
that he might be even a little bit wrong? Then why bother. Your time
is too valuable to be wasted trying to persuade a stubborn idiot. Tell
him that, if that is what it takes.

As an earlier poster said, "Walk away from pissing contests."

Also, feel comfortable in the knowledge that the configuration of the
Boxer engine, low, and between the frame rails, provides excellent
protection for the occupants.

 

[JD]

Dan Jensen wrote:
Yes, a heavier car (all else being equal, which it seldom, if ever, is.
Think of the trade-off with big SUVs that can "drive thru" a little car,
but roll over more easily, etc.) is likely to fare better in a head to
head situation with a lighter one, but there's more than the pure
physics of kinetic energy and momentum involved here.

Not necessarily true. It depends on how much energy has to be dissipated
over how long. SUVs 'drive through' smaller cars because of the difference
in weight, and because they are higher (so they usually drive over them;
hence dissipating the energy over a long period of time). However, try
hitting a brick wall with an SUV and with a Subaru. I would bet a fair
chunk of change that thew Suby driver will have a better chance of walking
away than the SUV driver since the Suby is lighter (not as much energy to
dissipate) and it will crush better (lengthing the time over which it
dissipates the energy), and lighten up even further since the engine will
usually let go and go under the car (shedding a few hundred more pounds
while continuing to crumple). The SUV is heavier and because they are on
frames, don't crumple up as well and transfer significant energy to the
driver; more likely to injure or kill.

That's the philosophy in modern race cars (NASCAR excluded; they aren't
modern). The bodies of race cars are 'deformable structures' and different
points on the cars fail at different rates causing a large dissipation of
energy that is not transferred to the driver. Hence, spectacular crashes,
where the car flies apart usually results in the driver walking away, while
a sudden impact that where the car remains basically intact frequently
injurs or kills the driver.

 

[Dan Jensen]

Dan Jensen wrote:
(clip) I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I want tp thank you for showing me what MY problem is. I become
obscessed with winning, no matter how pointless or stupid the argument
is. Stop and try to predict the future--can you see him ever admitting
that he might be even a little bit wrong? Then why bother. Your time
is too valuable to be wasted trying to persuade a stubborn idiot. Tell
him that, if that is what it takes.

As an earlier poster said, "Walk away from pissing contests."

Also, feel comfortable in the knowledge that the configuration of the
Boxer engine, low, and between the frame rails, provides excellent
protection for the occupants.

I agree with everything you said. I have been good at blowing him off for
15 years. The only reason I have not backed away from this one is my
wife's sister... his wife... needs to get a car. He is trying to push her
into a big old cheap car by claiming it is safer. She had a Dodge Intrepid
and it was constantly breaking down. He got her into that car using the
same logic. She also has two kids that she drives around. The reason I
am still in the pissing contest is to make sure she gets a safe and reliable
car. She really wants a Honda or Subaru. He wants to get her a used
Intrepid or Mercury.

All help and thoughts are greatly appreciated!

 

[Dan Jensen]

I agree with everything you said. I have been good at blowing him off
for 15 years. The only reason I have not backed away from this one is my
wife's sister... his wife... needs to get a car. He is trying to push her
into a big old cheap car by claiming it is safer. She had a Dodge
Intrepid and it was constantly breaking down. He got her into that car
using the same logic. She also has two kids that she drives around.
The reason I am still in the pissing contest is to make sure she gets a
safe and reliable car. She really wants a Honda or Subaru. He wants
to get her a used Intrepid or Mercury.

All help and thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Interesting Addition:

March 19, 2005, Insurance Institute for Highway Safety Status Report:

Driver Death Rate Per Million Registered Vehicles
Dodge Intrepid 70

Subaru Legacy 54

Mercury Grande Marquee 83

Honda Accord 58

 

[invalid]

I agree with everything you said. I have been good at blowing him off for
15 years. The only reason I have not backed away from this one is my
wife's sister... his wife... needs to get a car. He is trying to push her
into a big old cheap car by claiming it is safer. She had a Dodge Intrepid
and it was constantly breaking down. He got her into that car using the
same logic. She also has two kids that she drives around. The reason I
am still in the pissing contest is to make sure she gets a safe and reliable
car. She really wants a Honda or Subaru. He wants to get her a used
Intrepid or Mercury.

Comments:

Why are you arguing with HIM when you say you care about what SHE buys?
Is she his slave? Has he brainwashed her?

She is an adult, and is able to make her own decisions. If she wants
your opinion, she will ask you for it.

She chose her husband. She didn't choose her sister's husband.
No good will come out of you arguing with her husband.

Stop fighting with your relatives over trivialities and get a life.

 

[Mark IV]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with
some success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things
decided to go after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a
2001 Subaru Legacy Sedan. Even though he just recently had to get
rid of his Dodge Intrepid due to numerous mechanical problems, he
claims that if he hit my car head on that he would plow over and
demolish my Subaru.

This would never happen. Because of the Subaru's superior handling you'd
be able to avoid the collision.

 

[Mickey]

Hi,


Arguing car safety in crashes is an inexact science at best. Pure
guesswork at worst. For every crash you see where people walk away from
such metallic destruction as to believe nobody could have survived,
someone's probably seen what looked like a fender bender that produced a
fatality. Constant testing is done at many levels, and the results have
helped all cars become safer over time. So a 2500 lb car made today MAY
be safer in a crash than a 3000 lb car made 10 years ago (and then
again, it may not!)

Rick

I can sight a case to reinforce Rick's comments. Some yrs back I lost
a family member to an accident. If you just heard what happened and
took a stab at who survived and who died you would have gotten it all
backwards.

This was a text book case, couldn't have minimized all the variables
any further if you tried. Both cars, same make and model. All people
were teens within a yr of two at most. The car my relative was riding
in ran a stop sign (sign blocked by overgrowth), other car rammed them
in the drivers side. Only one wearing a seat belt, furthest from the
side impact, died instantly. Drive of same car lived for a while.
Driver of other car, went completely through the windshield and survived.

You just never know. I do understand your concern and have your
sister and her family's best interest at heart.

Mickey

 

[tom klein]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with
some success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things
decided to go after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a 2001
Subaru Legacy Sedan. Even though he just recently had to get rid of
his Dodge Intrepid due to numerous mechanical problems, he claims that
if he hit my car head on that he would plow over and demolish my
Subaru. He claims this is due to having a big heavy car made of steel.

unproven assumption. a friend was pushed (from behind, literally by a
mack truck) into a head-on with an old, full-sized chevy (arguably
heavier and stronger than a chrysler). the chevy was a write-off, but
my friend (and his dog) walked away with a few bruises. his legacy
wagon wasn't repairable, but then again, neither was the chevy.

[snip!]

From what I can find on the web so far, the Intrepid is only 200 pounds
heavier. I am very curious if anyone knows what material is used for
the body of an Intrepid and a Subaru. The safety ratings I have found
has shown 5 stars for the Outback and 4 and 5 for the Legacy. The
Intrepid is 3 and 4 stars. I have been trying to find stuff on the
web, but am very hopeful to pull thoughts, facts, ideas where to look,
responses, etc. from this group. I ended up getting away from him,
but he is the type he will be waiting to go after me again

safety ratings aren't based on bullshit, but on how much occupant
injury is measured in actual government crash tests. this is supposed
to be indicative of how badly you might get hurt in each vehicle under
the same circumstances. it includes factors like poor seatbelt design
(early honda accords), or loose components that can inflict secondary
injuries (like the mustang glovebox lid that DECAPITATED the dummy in
one test!). a "5" has to be better than a "3 and 4"; if you were
betting your life, would you take 60% over 100% because it's "good
enough"?

it's always amazing to me how differently the american and japanese
carmakers react to crash test results. i remember once a honda accord,
in the early '80s, that scored very, very badly on the safety tests.
the following model year, the car looked identical, but moved from
worst in its class to *best* in its class. how? they had changed
almost everything to do with safety: different seatbelt retractors,
collapsible steering wheel, padded dash, etc. i have never seen a
detroit carmaker do anything like that - if anything, things like the
ford pinto show quite the opposite attitude.


........ tom klein

 

[Dan Jensen]

Comments:

Why are you arguing with HIM when you say you care about what SHE buys?
Is she his slave? Has he brainwashed her?

Unfortunately it is a very abusive relationship.

She is an adult, and is able to make her own decisions. If she wants
your opinion, she will ask you for it.

She did... that is how I got pulled into it. She asked if I could bring
over my Consumer reports and collect some information off the web. I
brough her the information and she decided she wanted a Honda or a Subaru.

She chose her husband. She didn't choose her sister's husband.
No good will come out of you arguing with her husband.

Stop fighting with your relatives over trivialities and get a life.

A person's life, especially kids, is not trival.

 

[Dan Jensen]

I can sight a case to reinforce Rick's comments. Some yrs back I lost a
family member to an accident. If you just heard what happened and took a
stab at who survived and who died you would have gotten it all backwards.

This was a text book case, couldn't have minimized all the variables any
further if you tried. Both cars, same make and model. All people were
teens within a yr of two at most. The car my relative was riding in ran a
stop sign (sign blocked by overgrowth), other car rammed them in the
drivers side. Only one wearing a seat belt, furthest from the side
impact, died instantly. Drive of same car lived for a while. Driver of
other car, went completely through the windshield and survived.

You just never know. I do understand your concern and have your sister
and her family's best interest at heart.

Mickey

Sorry to hear about your lost Thank you for sharing. After the
negative post from another person, your post really helped.

 

[Dan Jensen]

I can sight a case to reinforce Rick's comments. Some yrs back I lost a
family member to an accident. If you just heard what happened and took a
stab at who survived and who died you would have gotten it all backwards.

This was a text book case, couldn't have minimized all the variables any
further if you tried. Both cars, same make and model. All people were
teens within a yr of two at most. The car my relative was riding in ran a
stop sign (sign blocked by overgrowth), other car rammed them in the
drivers side. Only one wearing a seat belt, furthest from the side
impact, died instantly. Drive of same car lived for a while. Driver of
other car, went completely through the windshield and survived.

You just never know. I do understand your concern and have your sister
and her family's best interest at heart.

Mickey

Sorry to hear about your lost Thank you for sharing. After the
negative post from another person, your post really helped.

 

[Dan Jensen]

I can sight a case to reinforce Rick's comments. Some yrs back I lost a
family member to an accident. If you just heard what happened and took a
stab at who survived and who died you would have gotten it all backwards.

This was a text book case, couldn't have minimized all the variables any
further if you tried. Both cars, same make and model. All people were
teens within a yr of two at most. The car my relative was riding in ran a
stop sign (sign blocked by overgrowth), other car rammed them in the
drivers side. Only one wearing a seat belt, furthest from the side
impact, died instantly. Drive of same car lived for a while. Driver of
other car, went completely through the windshield and survived.

You just never know. I do understand your concern and have your sister
and her family's best interest at heart.

Mickey

Sorry to hear about your lost Thank you for sharing. After the
negative post from another person, your post really helped.

 

[Hallraker]

I'm in need of some solid facts and have been searching the web with some
success. My Borther-In-law who likes to argue about things decided to go
after my Subarus. I have a 1997 Subaru Legacy and a 2001 Subaru Legacy
Sedan. Even though he just recently had to get rid of his Dodge Intrepid
due to numerous mechanical problems, he claims that if he hit my car head on
that he would plow over and demolish my Subaru. He claims this is due to
having a big heavy car made of steel. This started me rattle off some of
the safety test and features about Subaru, but he just kept telling me it
was basic physics. I then started trying to explain some of the
engineering behind Subaru when it comes to impacts, but he went back to
telling me that his heavy steel car would still demolish the Subaru. His
final comment was that he claims that his firefighter friends told him that
the have to carry people away from accidents that drive Subarus, where
Intrepid people walk away. I told him that I had been in a Subaru in which
the person driving was forced into a cement wall head on at 50 mph and we
all walked away. He just told me that his firefighter friend has seen more
accidents.

From what I can find on the we so far, the Intrepid is only 200 pounds
heavier. I am very curious if anyone knows what material is used for the
body of an Intrepid and a Subaru. The safety ratings I have found has
shown 5 stars for the Outback and 4 and 5 for the Legacy. The Intrepid is
3 and 4 stars. I have been trying to find stuff on the web, but am very
hopeful to pull thoughts, facts, ideas where to look, responses, etc. from
this group. I ended up getting away from him, but he is the type he will
be waiting to go after me again

Therein lies your problem. He sounds like an ignorant, stubborn fool, and
there's not much you can do to convince them of the facts once they've made
up their mind.

My ex girlfriend's family was much the same way. Her father was pretty open
minded about cars, one of the few I've met who didn't have a rock solid
brand allegiance. In fact, he praised the layout of the Subaru engine
compartment, as well as the longevity of the vehicles that he'd seen. But
her uncle was another story altogether. I'd go to a family function and
(you're gonna laugh) he'd get to drinking and pretty soon he'd be giving my
*car* a dirty look. Yes, my car. He went a few rounds with me over it, and
the facts went right over his head. Most notably that my Outback is bolted
together in Indiana, while his GM horror is made in Mexico, which last I
checked was still a foreign country. This was of course a response to his
country of origin rant.

Anyway, I wish you luck but you can't win against ignorance.

-Matt