Headgasket Leaking - Lemon Law help?

S

subnoob

I have a 2000 Subaru Outback that developed coolant leaks at Headgaskets
leaked at 20,000, 46,000 and the last one at 63,000 miles. I had the tsb
done with the additive but it's done no good. Are there any good NJ
dealers out there that anyone can recommend? I'm talking to a lawyer to
see if there's anything I can do. Are there enough of us that we can get a
class action started or something? I'm desperate and just want Subaru to
fix this mess. Please email me if you've had any luck if getting this
fixed or or any luck with the lemon law or want to join a class action.
Something has to be done. Help!
 
subnoob said:
I have a 2000 Subaru Outback that developed coolant leaks at Headgaskets
leaked at 20,000, 46,000 and the last one at 63,000 miles. I had the tsb
done with the additive but it's done no good. Are there any good NJ
dealers out there that anyone can recommend? I'm talking to a lawyer to
see if there's anything I can do. Are there enough of us that we can get a
class action started or something? I'm desperate and just want Subaru to
fix this mess. Please email me if you've had any luck if getting this
fixed or or any luck with the lemon law or want to join a class action.
Something has to be done. Help!

Good luck. My Mercury Sable had leaking head gaskets as well, and they
eventually blew, and despite the fact that it was very, very common on those
cars, there was never any recall. Nor was there one on the horrid
transmission either.

-Matt
 
subnoob said:
I have a 2000 Subaru Outback that developed coolant leaks at Headgaskets
leaked at 20,000, 46,000 and the last one at 63,000 miles. I had the tsb
done with the additive but it's done no good. Are there any good NJ
dealers out there that anyone can recommend? I'm talking to a lawyer to
see if there's anything I can do. Are there enough of us that we can get a
class action started or something? I'm desperate and just want Subaru to
fix this mess. Please email me if you've had any luck if getting this
fixed or or any luck with the lemon law or want to join a class action.
Something has to be done. Help!

See http://www.subaruproblems.com/
 
Before doing anything check with a Subaru dealer -- the headgasket
should be covered by Subaru under an extended warranty for this
problem. Just two weeks ago, my wife's 2000 Outback (70,000 miles)
began to leak oil suddenly. I took it to my local Subaru dealer here
in Indianapolis and the dealer replaced the headgasket. According to
this dealer, Subaru is covering blown headgaskets under an extended
warranty program for up to 200,00 miles. There was no charge for my
wife's car.

Blown headgaskets apparently are a known problem area for the 2.5 l.
Subaru engine, but I was very pleased by how the problem was handled.
As soon as the dealer called me and explained the problem, he said it
would be coverd under the warranty. It cost me nothing and I even got
an oil change and new coolant in the deal.

This was the first repair on her Outback in almost five years other
than normal maintenance. I have been pleased with all four of the
Subaru's that we have owned. I currently drive a '92 Subaru SVX with
145,000 miles. Our two previous Subies went over 100,000 miles with
few repairs -- we gave our 95 Legacy to our son and it now has over
150,000 miles on it. I will be definitely be considering another
Subaru when I'm in the market for a new car.

Good luck!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
subnoob said:
Something has to be done. Help!

Well...

You could write your Congressperson, asking for a repeal of all the smog
laws so we can go back to all iron engines that run at 180 deg F!

Only being about half facetious here. From the stories I hear about
leaking/blown headgaskets on SO MANY makes today, it sounds like
nobody's managed to tame the problem. It's more complex than this, but
the short answer is the combination of extremely light alloy heads and
very high operating temps being used for smog purposes tends to allow
the heads to "move" and warp quite easily, creating the problems.

Sounds like you'd do well to have a qualified mechanic look the heads
over, checking for cracks and warpage. My machine shop owner friend says
a majority of heads respond well to being surfaced after the initial
headgasket problem and then the engine's far more reliable and long
lived. An experiment with a population of one is hardly valid, but in my
case, he was right on a 4 cyl Toyota... I haven't heard similar
experiences from Subie owners. If the gasket's being replaced and the
head's not "flat," it's probably a waste of money and time to keep doing
the replacement thing. So don't give up on trying to obtain satisfaction
from Subaru!

Good luck,

Rick
 
subnoob said:
I have a 2000 Subaru Outback that developed coolant leaks at Headgaskets
leaked at 20,000, 46,000 and the last one at 63,000 miles. I had the tsb
done with the additive but it's done no good. Are there any good NJ
dealers out there that anyone can recommend? I'm talking to a lawyer to
see if there's anything I can do. Are there enough of us that we can get a
class action started or something? I'm desperate and just want Subaru to
fix this mess. Please email me if you've had any luck if getting this
fixed or or any luck with the lemon law or want to join a class action.
Something has to be done. Help!

Doesn't anybody read anything they are sent? You have an 80,000 mile
warantee on the head gaskets as part of the TSB. Take it to the delaer.
 
Rick said:
subnoob wrote:




Well...

You could write your Congressperson, asking for a repeal of all the smog
laws so we can go back to all iron engines that run at 180 deg F!

BTW, it's not clear to me at all how bad the
problem is. I was talking to the guy next
door that owns an auto repair shop. He works
on Subaru's and a) has never seen a blown head
gasket and b) has not seen any mention of the
problem in his subscription tech repair database.

I know that this doesn't make a person feel
any better that has a problem.

The more I hear of the problem, the more I suspect
air in coolant system as the original cause.

I've been tempted to come up with a small add-on
circuit board that would blink the CEL lamp if the
coolant temp went more than about 20% above normal.
 
Doesn't anybody read anything they are sent? You have an 80,000 mile
warantee on the head gaskets as part of the TSB. Take it to the delaer.


Mmmm... I've actually read it, it's 100,000 miles. Also if I read Alan's post correctly, he bought
the vehicle because he REQUIRES it for transporatation, not to leave in the shop every 21k miles for
the same problem, regardless of some empty warranty promise, be it infinite.

I'm a fan of Subaru... all the more reason I'll hold them responsible to maintain a high standard.
-Danny
 
Obviously a dealer/mechanic issue in that it has not been done
correctly the first time. ed
 
Alan said:
Doesn't anybody read anything they are sent? You have an 80,000 mile
warantee on the head gaskets as part of the TSB. Take it to the delaer.

Hi,

I agree with Danny and Ed: a warranty's only as good as those who
service it. A lifetime warranty, serviced by an incompetent shop, isn't
worth the paper it's written on. OTOH, a competent shop that does the
job right first time is worth its weight in gold. The OP needs to do as
Danny suggests and hold these folks to a higher standard, be they
independents or dealers.

Rick
 
Some people are just penny wise pound foolish. They think they save a
couple bucks by not going to the dealer but then the monkey who does
the work does it wrong and it takes more time and grief to correct it.
Sure a timing belt change is expensive anywhere (what happened to
timing chains?) but most dealerships do the job right the first time. I
am fortunate to have found a Sub dealer that is respectable and charges
fairly. I will definitely bring my OBW to them for the belt change.
Brakes and such can be handled by anyone .
 
Some people are just penny wise pound foolish. They think they save a
couple bucks by not going to the dealer but then the monkey who does
the work does it wrong and it takes more time and grief to correct it.
Sure a timing belt change is expensive anywhere (what happened to
timing chains?) but most dealerships do the job right the first time. I
am fortunate to have found a Sub dealer that is respectable and charges
fairly. I will definitely bring my OBW to them for the belt change.
Brakes and such can be handled by anyone .
One needs to be aware that Subaru is on the third design for the head
gasket.

I rarely pay someone to work on my car but did have an independent
shop do the HG repair. For me it was the right decision. Shop is
Subie only shop and has been in business for more than 20 yrs. Shop
says they have never had a HG failure on engines with third generation
HG design.

Their std service for replacing the HG is to remove the engine,
resurface the heads and replace ALL gaskets and seals on the engine.
They use nothing but factory parts. I paid $1300, the dealer wanted
$2000+ and no mention of resealing.

Good or bad service can be had at either dealer or independent shops.

Mickey
 
Mickey said:
I rarely pay someone to work on my car but did have an independent shop do
the HG repair. For me it was the right decision. Shop is Subie only shop
and has been in business for more than 20 yrs. Shop says they have never
had a HG failure on engines with third generation HG design.

If this is true, then why does the owner's manual for my new 2005 Forester
say to put Subaru Coolant Conditioner in every time you change the coolant?

I am really worried about this head gasket issue. I read all about it on
the
internet and then went out and bought the Forester anyway, figuring that
Subaru has had plenty of time to fix this problem by now. I'm not really
that
wild about the car, it's just the best station-wagon-like thing I could get
for
the money. The service people at the dealership when I bought the car said
they haven't seen any problems on the '04 and '05 models, but now I'm
thinking that might be because they've been putting in that Coolant
Conditioner
at the factory and whenever the coolant is changed!

Maybe I'll trade it in in 3 years. But what should I get instead?

Laura Watson
 
Most newer cars get the "cooling system" conditioner from the factory
and advise to replace it each time the coolant is changed. Not unique
to Subaru. HG weeping is very common on some Toyotas and many General
motors engines. Trade or worried about nothing.
 
If this is true, then why does the owner's manual for my new 2005 Forester
say to put Subaru Coolant Conditioner in every time you change the coolant?

I am really worried about this head gasket issue. I read all about it on
the
internet and then went out and bought the Forester anyway, figuring that
Subaru has had plenty of time to fix this problem by now. I'm not really
that
wild about the car, it's just the best station-wagon-like thing I could get
for
the money. The service people at the dealership when I bought the car said
they haven't seen any problems on the '04 and '05 models, but now I'm
thinking that might be because they've been putting in that Coolant
Conditioner
at the factory and whenever the coolant is changed!

Don't get paranoid about it. My next-door neighbor
runs an independent repair shop and he works on
Subarus. He has *never* seen a bad head gasket. What
you read about on the newsgroup is not representitive
of what an average owner will experience.

The best thing that you can do is check the coolant
level regularly, and make sure that when it is changed,
all the air is purged from the system.

BTW, my '99 Outback has 107,000 miles on it with
nothing more than scheduled maintainance. I intend
to keep it until it has at least 200,000.

Maybe I'll trade it in in 3 years. But what should I get instead?

It's a lottery with any new car. Even Mercedes had
a huge recall recently.
 
I read the manual and it says just add the coolant slowly so no air gets in.
Is there another way to purge the air, I want to change the coolant myself
in my 02 Outback. I've done it before on my 95 Outback but never purged the
air. Thanks Jeff
 
Jeff said:
I read the manual and it says just add the coolant slowly so no air gets in.
Is there another way to purge the air, I want to change the coolant myself
in my 02 Outback. I've done it before on my 95 Outback but never purged the
air. Thanks Jeff

One of the mechanics has posted how to do it.
You can go back and google it or perhaps he'll
post it again.


I would add to watch the temp gauge very carefully.
Note it's normal position before draining the
coolant and then shutdown the engine if it exceeds
that while filling.
 
Jeff said:
I read the manual and it says just add the coolant slowly so no air gets in.
Is there another way to purge the air, I want to change the coolant myself
in my 02 Outback. I've done it before on my 95 Outback but never purged the
air. Thanks Jeff
Here's how I did it recently and is close to the procedure in the
factory manual.

After filling the cooling system I placed the rad cap on and made sure
the overflow tank was about half full. Next I started the engine and
set the idle speed to about 1500-2000 rpm. I let it run this way
until the cooling fan had cycled for the third time (was close to the
time the manual calls for). By that time I could no longer see any
air bubbles rising from the overflow tank. I let the engine cool down
and then added water to the overflow tank so it reached the lower
normal line. Haven't had to add any more water since and that was
about 3 months ago.

Some have said they run their car up on ramp to elevate the engine to
help with purging the air. If you pay attention to the engine and
where the coolant exits from the block you will note it is at
mid-point. IMO elevating the front of the engine adds to the
possibility of having trapped air in the engine. Needless to say I
didn't elevate the front of the car.

Mickey
 

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