Automatic vs. Manual

Henry said:
My 2.2 Impreza 5 speed turns 3k plus in 5th on the highway

But I think an Impreza with a 2.5 would be turning at 2500 in 5th on the
highway.

It would probably make sense. The 2.2L engine was originally for the
Imprezas, while the 2.5L engines were originally only for the Legacies. So
when they put 2.5L engines into the Imprezas, I'm sure the need to run such
high RPMs diminished.

Yousuf Khan
 
Rick said:
Woody pretty much said what I wanted to regarding why a stick's a
better choice than an auto for the purposes the OP mentioned, but on
this mileage thing: do the automatics get equal/better mileage in
REAL life, or just on paper with some made up EPA test? It's been my
experience a manual beats an auto for mileage every time, all else
being equal.

I think in REAL life, the automatics are actually getting *better* mileage.
I've had these discussions with people on this newsgroup before, and I'm
constantly amazed by the mileage other people in their automatic Outbacks
get in comparison to me. Usually they are getting about 2-5 mpg better than
me. I've sometimes even seen H6 Outbacks getting better mileage than mine.

Yousuf Khan
 
Depending on the market and model, it looks as if Subaru gives the front or
rear bias a different ratio. Most of the heavier cars, such as the Legacies
and Legacy Outbacks have a 90:10 front/rear ratio.

That's what I'm talking about.

Barry
 
You said it all with "marketing dep't." These are the same guys who
advertise "symmetrical all wheel drive." To me that means 50-50. As the
owner of a 4wd Subie, with a 5 spd, where you switch it yourself, I
think 50-50's the way it should be.

As others have said, I don't like the computer doing my thinking. If it
were any good at it, it would put things in the gear I want when I want
it, shift where I want to shift, etc. Haven't found one yet that thinks
like I do...

Rick

Agreed!

I always drive a stick, unless I am borrowing or renting, and I HATE
when climbing a hill in an auto and the thing shifts down when it is
not needed.

With a stick you can go full throttle in 5th gear and pull the hill
without having to shift down. In an auto, full throttle probably
puts the car in 2nd.

Drives me nuts.

nate
02 OBW MT5
 
Agreed!

I always drive a stick, unless I am borrowing or renting, and I HATE
when climbing a hill in an auto and the thing shifts down when it is
not needed.

With a stick you can go full throttle in 5th gear and pull the hill
without having to shift down. In an auto, full throttle probably
puts the car in 2nd.

Drives me nuts.

nate
02 OBW MT5

Interesting article on the steady decline of the manual transmission:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0409/13/a01-271661.htm
 
Interesting article on the steady decline of the manual transmission:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0409/13/a01-271661.htm


Yep. It is absolutely ashamed. Note though that even now in Europe
the auto is far rarer than the stick. Mostly due to expensive fuel.
They use small motors and small cars that really feel the bog of an
auto.

All this talk about clutching in traffic is true. I lived in a big
city and clutching in stop and go for three hours gets really old. My
solution was to move to a smaller city with no congestion.

Other than starting out, I don't need to depress the clutch ever
anyway on my OBW, and most often I don't. Its just a habit carried
over from driving 10 speed unsynchroed trucks with 11 liter engines.

nate
 
uglymoney said:
Other than starting out, I don't need to depress the clutch ever
anyway on my OBW, and most often I don't. Its just a habit carried
over from driving 10 speed unsynchroed trucks with 11 liter engines.

Isn't there a lockout for shifting the transmission when not depressing the
clutch?

Yousuf Khan
 
Huh?

I shift before 3000 rpm all the time, if I am driving for mileage that
is.

Spirited driving is something entirely different. I shift later only
when I am driving with spirit, or have a need to accelerate quickly.
Otherwise, I drive for mileage, and I all but gaurantee that I do
better around town than an auto with my stick. I am 33 years old btw,
and nowhere near retired.

Yousuf Khan is right about the final drive. 5th turns too fast on the
highway. Its a shame.

nate
02 OBW mt3
32k miles

Fall asleep at the wheel much? No way I could drive like that unles a
computer was doing the shifting for me and even then I would be cursing
it all day long :)
 
AUSTRALIA

My previous 1991 RS Turbo Liberty (Aussie Legacy) would do 40km/hr per
1000 revolutions in 5th gear..... so 5000 rpm in top gear was 200km/hr !!!

And I regularly spun it to 5500 or more in top..... FANTASTIC car that..
..wish I never sold it.

BTW: I'm looking to buy another RS Turbo, or the later model (imported
only for Australia) GT, if anyone is selling ???

Cheers
Spinifex
 
The WHOLE idea of gears is to negate the need to go "full throttle" to
ascend a hill......

You are putting excessive strain on your engine, gearbox, differentials
and CV joints by putting that much load due to not using the CORRECT
gear for the job... that of climbing a hill

How hard is it to drop it back a gear, or two if necessary...... the
auto is doing exactly what it is supposed to....

despite the fact that people dont like them because they dont foresee
the correct gear, as we do..... the fact is, the auto chooses the
correct gear according to it's programming. Auto companies spend
MILLIONS of dollars on testing and development, choosing the correct
programming for gear changes, etc... and you complain when your auto
selects a gear to climb a hill

sorry mate, but youre a wanker.... if you don't like autos, dont buy them

Spinifex
 
The WHOLE idea of gears is to negate the need to go "full throttle" to
ascend a hill......

You are putting excessive strain on your engine, gearbox, differentials
and CV joints by putting that much load due to not using the CORRECT
gear for the job... that of climbing a hill

How hard is it to drop it back a gear, or two if necessary...... the
auto is doing exactly what it is supposed to....

despite the fact that people dont like them because they dont foresee
the correct gear, as we do..... the fact is, the auto chooses the
correct gear according to it's programming. Auto companies spend
MILLIONS of dollars on testing and development, choosing the correct
programming for gear changes, etc... and you complain when your auto
selects a gear to climb a hill

sorry mate, but youre a wanker.... if you don't like autos, dont buy them

Spinifex

My thoughts exactly... why the hell would anyone intentionally drive up a
hill in 5th gear?
John
 
The WHOLE idea of gears is to negate the need to go "full throttle" to
ascend a hill......

You are putting excessive strain on your engine, gearbox, differentials
and CV joints by putting that much load due to not using the CORRECT
gear for the job... that of climbing a hill

Please explain to me how using full throttle in fifth gear at a normal
cruising RPM is hard on my engine, gearbox, or differentials?

Telling me that I am putting excessive strain on my components is not
good enough. Every car I have owned has rusted out before either the
engine, transmission, or differentials shucked.
How hard is it to drop it back a gear, or two if necessary...... the
auto is doing exactly what it is supposed to....

despite the fact that people dont like them because they dont foresee
the correct gear, as we do..... the fact is, the auto chooses the
correct gear according to it's programming. Auto companies spend
MILLIONS of dollars on testing and development, choosing the correct
programming for gear changes, etc... and you complain when your auto
selects a gear to climb a hill

sorry mate, but youre a wanker.... if you don't like autos, dont buy them

I've never owned an auto, prefer manual, so that is in fact what I
buy. Autos have there place in the world. This is a discussion about
the advantages and disadvantages of each setup.

I tried to correct your toppost here. It made your reply a little
confusing.

#1 what is a wanker? I assume that you are complimenting my wisdom if
you were replying to my post, which I am not sure of because of your
top post. If you were indeed calling me a wanker thank you very
much, I guess. We don't use that term much here in the good ole US of
A.

We are having a discussion about sticks and fuel economy and autos and
fuel economy. Going up a hill full throttle with a manual
transmission in the tallest gear that is capable of pulling the hill
is the most fuel efficient way to go up the hill. Gasoline engines
run must efficiently at full throttle and low rpm. They run least
efficiently at part throttle and high rpm.

Note: I am not talking about letting the RPM's drop to the point that
the motor is shaking and vibrating - lugging. I am not advocating
lugging.

Which brings up an interesting point. Would I go down the highway
most efficiently in a car with a tiny motor that required full
throttle to cruise at 80 mph at cruising rpm (low)? Yes! That is why
gas-electric cars use tiny motors, with electric backup to kick in
when they go up hills.

There is a reason for this of course. When you open the throttle you
lower the pressure drop across the intake manifold. With the throttle
partially open, the engine has to do extra work to pull in the air
against the pressure (pumping loss). A deisel engine always works
like this. With a diesel the throttle controls the fuel, not the air.
It is one of a couple of reasons why diesels run so efficiently.

So going up a hill in a tall gear (highest possible gear) reduces
pumping loss.

http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/faq-quicktips.html

An automatic transmission has no way of looking forward and deciding
if it is capable of pulling a hill in said tall gear, so it takes its
best guess, dropping a gear, often before its time, or hunting and
pecking. All of this wastes fuel. A driver with a manual can stay in
top gear until a shift becomes neccessary due to RPM drop.

This is one of the reasons why I contend that in the real world, a
manual driven correctly will generally outperform an auto, all other
things being equal. Weight and hp loss through transmission (when not
locked up) being the others.

Anyway thanks for the reply. Happy wanking to you as well!

nate
02 OBW MT5
 
No... you clearly stated that you were using full throttle to climb a
hill, rather than choosing the correct gear, and using more moderate
throttle

i simply stated that in doing so, you are putting strain on the
mechanical components that need not be applied, if correct driving
techniques were used... .and that an automatic makes this decision for you

i was not suggesting you were wrong in the overall outcome of the
discussion... i agree that manuals SHOULD be more efficient than
autos.... IF DRIVEN CORRECTLY......

i WAS however disagreeing that you think it sensible to climb an incline
which would require a drop back in gears, in top gear with full
throttle. This totally negates the requirement for gears in mechanical
instruments. Gears are there to reduce the load and stress on
components, by the very definition, by gearing down those loads, and
shifting to more appropriate gearing when load & stresses dictate.

Happy wanking to you too... but always feels better with someone elses
hands :)

Spinifex
 
Spinifex said:
No... you clearly stated that you were using full throttle to climb a
hill, rather than choosing the correct gear, and using more moderate
throttle

i simply stated that in doing so, you are putting strain on the
mechanical components that need not be applied, if correct driving
techniques were used... .and that an automatic makes this decision for you

i was not suggesting you were wrong in the overall outcome of the
discussion... i agree that manuals SHOULD be more efficient than
autos.... IF DRIVEN CORRECTLY......

i WAS however disagreeing that you think it sensible to climb an incline
which would require a drop back in gears, in top gear with full
throttle. This totally negates the requirement for gears in mechanical
instruments. Gears are there to reduce the load and stress on
components, by the very definition, by gearing down those loads, and
shifting to more appropriate gearing when load & stresses dictate.

Happy wanking to you too... but always feels better with someone elses
hands :)

Spinifex

I agree with Nate. It all depends on the hill, however. Some Auto boxes
shift down at the slightest hint of a hill which can be pretty frickin
annoying. If the hill is on a highway and the car can pull it in 5th
without completely flooring it, why not keep it in fifth. It does not
wear anything out any faster unless it starts pinging.


-rm
 
Rob Munach said:
I agree with Nate. It all depends on the hill, however. Some Auto boxes
shift down at the slightest hint of a hill which can be pretty frickin
annoying.

Some do, but Subaru ones don't, at least in my experience. My Legacy
250T will climb most of the steepest highway hills in NZ happily locked
up in 4th with 1/3 - 1/2 throttle. Only if I press the gas a long way
or if the speed drops below about 80 km/h (2000 rpm) will it change down.
 
And I still maintain that the engineers spend MUCH time and money
testing and programming their electronic automatic gearboxes. Who the
hell are WE to say it is wrong??? I agree that it can be annoying if it
shifts at what WE consider to be incorrect.... but like I said... who
the hell are we???

What the hell does it matter if the thing decides to downshift? It is
doing it for a reason.... because the automotive engineers, which I have
to assume NONE of the posters / readers here are (including myself),
have programmed it so.

But I DO agree that GENERALLY speaking.... manual transmission vehicles
normally can attain better fuel consumption figures than their automatic
transmission counterparts. This has nothing to do with the POINT at
which gears are changed, either by driver or by computer..... but
entirely due to the GEARING itself. Manual drive ratios, gearbox,
differentials, etc, are entirely different from automatic gearing
ratios. The automatic boxes are programmed for efficiency, smoothness
and passenger comfort, as a general rule.

Spinifex
 
I think you're all wrong!

Just joking, I thought I'd stir you all up...

I have a 2004 Liberty GT 5sp Auto.(only came in auto at the time). Despite
being a manual guy until the last 2 family cars, I have found this Subaru
auto to be pretty good. It doesn't hunt. It does slurrr into gears when
pushed a bit. BUT good most of the time, particularly with sport mode and
shift buttons on the wheel. Would be even better with paddles!!!

About the drive splitting. and here's why I say you're all wrong. My
understanding is that the auto can only vary the front to rear split up to
40:60 (hence, rear drive bias). The Manual is better and can vary the split
up to 90% front, OR rear.


So, let it rip. I'm ready for the replies ;)

Tuan
 
Exactly Bruce...... your auto is doing precisely what it is supposed to
do :)

Personally, I'm a fan of manuals, in a performance vehicle. But auto's
have their place - especially in choked city traffic.

I'm yet to test drive a vehicle with semi-auto, tiptronic, steptronic,
or whatever name they choose to give it to make it "unique" !!!

Spinifex
 
Spinifex said:
hell are WE to say it is wrong??? I agree that it can be annoying if it
shifts at what WE consider to be incorrect.... but like I said... who
the hell are we???

Don't know about you, but I'm the damned DRIVER of MY car. That's who
the hell I am! As part of my responsibility to my fellow users of the
road, I'm supposed to maintain control of my vehicle at all times.
That's a WHOLE lot easier to do if one knows WHAT the vehicle's gonna
do, and WHEN!

Rick
 

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