Spinouts, motorcycles and skill

[Jim Stewart]

So we've been talking about bikes, spinouts and driving/riding
skill. One last issue that I'd like to point out is training.
After I had been riding for a few months, I bought a set of
Keith Code's books on performace riding. I worked through them
and found them to be very good.

The most important part of the book, in my opinion, was the issue
of instinctive or fear response. He makes the point that there
are several situations that can develop where your instinctive
response is wrong. By setting up these situations is a safe
fashion and working through them you can condition yourself to
handle them in the right way instead of letting your fear and
instinct get you in trouble.

The best example is that you're entered a corner too fast.
You can tell that you're not going to make it. Your instinct
tells you to hit the brake. Hitting the brake will send you
into the guardrail in an instant. What you need to do is
lean deeper. You're sure the bike is going to slide off the
road, but it doesn't. The fact is that your intuitive sense
of how far the bike will lean is not nearly as far as it
actually can lean.

Does anyone know of any literature that handles these issues
with a 4-wheeled vehicle?

 

[Bruce Hoult]

The best example is that you're entered a corner too fast.
You can tell that you're not going to make it. Your instinct
tells you to hit the brake. Hitting the brake will send you
into the guardrail in an instant. What you need to do is
lean deeper. You're sure the bike is going to slide off the
road, but it doesn't. The fact is that your intuitive sense
of how far the bike will lean is not nearly as far as it
actually can lean.

Well that will probably work for some people, but it's not going to work
if you've already been riding for a while and actually know where the
cornering limit of your bike is.

In fact if you're BOTH going fast (i.e. the corner had a large radius)
AND taking a reasonable line through the corner (i.e. towards the inside
of the lane, not the outside) THEN you've got quite a bit of space to
play with getting upright and braking hard in a straight line. I've
been motorcycling nearly every day for 25 years and I can tell you that
straightning up and braking HARD really helps.


Let's look at some numbers.

Suppose, for example, that you're doing 80 mph (130 km/h, 36 m/s) and
you'd need a 45 degree lean angle (1 G lateral acceleration) to get
around the corner. From a = v^2/r the corner radius must therefore be
36^2/9.8 = 132 m. Suppose you're at the inside of a 3m wide lane, at
the point you decide to straighten up. What distance will you travel
before getting to the outside of that lane? There is a right angled
triangle with you at the right angle vertex, the second vertex 132m to
the side of you at the center of radius of the curve, and the third
vertex (132+3) m from the center. Using Pythagorus, the distance from
you to that third vertex is sqrt(135^2 - 132^2) = 28.3 m.

If you brake at 1G (instead of turning) for half a second you'll drop
your speed to 31.1 m/s (112 km/h, 69.5 mph) while traveling 16.8 m of
the available 28.3 m. At the same time you've dropped your 1G (45
degree lean) cornering radius from 132 m to 98.7 m (a 25%) reduction.
Alternatively, you can now take that 132m curve at only 0.75 G (37
degree lean angle).

Either way you look at it, you're much better off now than you were half
a second earlier.

-- Bruce

 

[Danny Russell]

So we've been talking about bikes, spinouts and driving/riding
skill. One last issue that I'd like to point out is training.
After I had been riding for a few months, I bought a set of
Keith Code's books on performace riding. I worked through them
and found them to be very good.

The most important part of the book, in my opinion, was the issue
of instinctive or fear response. He makes the point that there
are several situations that can develop where your instinctive
response is wrong. By setting up these situations is a safe
fashion and working through them you can condition yourself to
handle them in the right way instead of letting your fear and
instinct get you in trouble.

The best example is that you're entered a corner too fast.
You can tell that you're not going to make it. Your instinct
tells you to hit the brake. Hitting the brake will send you
into the guardrail in an instant. What you need to do is
lean deeper. You're sure the bike is going to slide off the
road, but it doesn't. The fact is that your intuitive sense
of how far the bike will lean is not nearly as far as it
actually can lean.

The real challenge is when you've committed yourself to a turn only to find there's sand/gravel
strewn on the roadway, and if you ride for any length of time, this one'll eventually get ya.
Another one is where someone in a car, who is apparently completely oblivious to your presence,
places their mostly stationary vehicle directly in front of your moving bike.

There's physics involved in motorcycle riding that put you on the losers end of the stick regardless
of any "mind over matter" :^), best to be paranoid at all times when riding. The minute you
actually begin to enjoy the ride, some A-hole comes out of the woodwork and almost ends your life.
But everyone's different, I know folks that've ridden incident-free for over a decade, yet others
buy the farm in their first year. IMO, open highway criusing is the safest, city riding is the
worst.

 

[Cam Penner]

The real challenge is when you've committed yourself to a turn only to find there's sand/gravel
strewn on the roadway, and if you ride for any length of time, this one'll eventually get ya.

If you are riding to the Vanishing Point, then this will
never pose a problem. It is only when you ride faster than
your sightlines allow that you will be caught by this one.
Of course, many many many people frequently outride their
sightlines, and then are surprised by accidents they
"couldn't avoid". That's like saying you lost it on a
corner that had a decreasing radius because your car was
out of traction because you were entering the turn at
100mph. Not really an accident at all.

Another one is where someone in a car, who is apparently completely oblivious to your presence,
places their mostly stationary vehicle directly in front of your moving bike.

This is more likely. Again, it is not a given. A dozen
years of riding in all seasons (and a little snow and ice
to boot) and I have yet to be hit by a car.

buy the farm in their first year. IMO, open highway criusing is the safest, city riding is the
worst.

Stats back you up for both car and bike accidents. Limited
access highways are statistically the safest.

 

[J999w]

Of course, many many many people frequently outride their

sightlines, and then are surprised by accidents they
"couldn't avoid". That's like saying you lost it on a
corner that had a decreasing radius because your car was
out of traction because you were entering the turn at
100mph. Not really an accident at all.

Exactly.

If you're riding or driving is 'reasonable and prudent', when will you ever
find yourself entering a curve so fast that you know you won't make it?? If you
clobber some pedestrian walking on the outside of that turn, your world as you
know it is about to come to a screeching end.

Take it to the track.

jw
milwaukee

 

[Danny Russell]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:58:13 -0700, Cam Penner

If you are riding to the Vanishing Point, then this will
never pose a problem. It is only when you ride faster than
your sightlines allow that you will be caught by this one.
Of course, many many many people frequently outride their
sightlines, and then are surprised by accidents they
"couldn't avoid". That's like saying you lost it on a
corner that had a decreasing radius because your car was
out of traction because you were entering the turn at
100mph. Not really an accident at all.

Actually my point (although probably not well made) was aimed more at making the distinction between
riding at a prudent, confident pace on familiar roads, v.s. the same confident pace on unfamiliar
roads and getting surprized by a sand-wash over the pavement. Since that situation is never a
problem in a car, the novice biker tends to get bit by it.

This is more likely. Again, it is not a given. A dozen
years of riding in all seasons (and a little snow and ice
to boot) and I have yet to be hit by a car.

I rode a Kawasaki H2 (750cc, 3 cyl., 2-stroke) for about 3 1/2 years. That machine was one part
powder keg and one part barrel 'o monkeys and was incredible fun, but I felt like I had a target
painted on my chest or something. Every time I'd go for a spin someone would come close to taking
my life. I enjoyed riding that bike more than anything, but I had to give it up. Oh well, I like
my Outback Sport too. :^)

 

[Cam Penner]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:58:13 -0700, Cam Penner



Actually my point (although probably not well made) was aimed more at making the distinction between
riding at a prudent, confident pace on familiar roads, v.s. the same confident pace on unfamiliar
roads and getting surprized by a sand-wash over the pavement. Since that situation is never a
problem in a car, the novice biker tends to get bit by it.

It's never a problem if you ride to the Vanishing Point.
Familiar roads can NOT be ridden ANY faster than unfamiliar
roads without sacrificing safety. Most people go faster
over familiar roads, but are giving up safety in the
process. You CAN NOT safely outride/outdrive what you can
see no matter how many times you've been down that road
before. Sand, oil, deer, children, lumber, etc. can all be
lurking around the very corner you just rode through 2
minutes ago. Roads change. Even familiar ones. If you
can't identify and avoid all hazards in your line of sight,
and you can't stop within your line of sight, you are
setting yourself up for an "accident" that is really just
poor driving/riding to begin with.

I rode a Kawasaki H2 (750cc, 3 cyl., 2-stroke) for about 3 1/2 years. That machine was one part
powder keg and one part barrel 'o monkeys and was incredible fun, but I felt like I had a target
painted on my chest or something. Every time I'd go for a spin someone would come close to taking
my life. I enjoyed riding that bike more than anything, but I had to give it up. Oh well, I like
my Outback Sport too. :^)

Now you're on the other end of the crosshairs.

The longer I ride, the fewer close calls I have. I see
things happening sooner, and take the necessary steps to
avoid close calls before they happen. I don't even notice
myself doing it most of the time, but there is no other
reason for it.

Ain't two-strokes fun though? I love the look on people's
faces as my "little" 350 pulls away - like a rocket.

 

[Cam Penner]

@News.individual.net>,
Cam.Penner.news1ATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com@hotmai
l.com says...

It's never a problem if you ride to the Vanishing Point.
Familiar roads can NOT be ridden ANY faster than unfamiliar
roads without sacrificing safety. Most people go faster
over familiar roads, but are giving up safety in the
process. You CAN NOT safely outride/outdrive what you can
see no matter how many times you've been down that road
before. Sand, oil, deer, children, lumber, etc. can all be
lurking around the very corner you just rode through 2
minutes ago. Roads change. Even familiar ones. If you

For those unfamiliar with the Vanishing Point technique,
here's a website with a summary of it. At the bottom of
the page is a link to a bunch of examples using real life
road pictures.

http://home.comcast.net/~alan.s.moore/vp/vanish.htm

 

[Danny Russell]

For those unfamiliar with the Vanishing Point technique,
here's a website with a summary of it. At the bottom of
the page is a link to a bunch of examples using real life
road pictures.

http://home.comcast.net/~alan.s.moore/vp/vanish.htm

Thanks Cam. Danny

 

[Hallraker]

"Cam Penner"

@News.individual.net>,
Cam.Penner.news1ATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com@hotmai
l.com says...


For those unfamiliar with the Vanishing Point technique,
here's a website with a summary of it. At the bottom of
the page is a link to a bunch of examples using real life
road pictures.

http://home.comcast.net/~alan.s.moore/vp/vanish.htm

Good reading. Thanks!

-Matt

 

[hippo]

What? Leaning a car? But seriously folks ... Frank Gardner, Australian race
driver and extraordinary engineer wrote a book called "Drive to Stay
Alive". Doubt if it's still in print but I still have my old copy. Dealt
with a lot of situations but with a defensive focus. Learn about point
fixation, getting a car unbalanced or just plain bad technique and
practice. You'll be in a better position to go and condition yourself to
avoid those things in a controlled situation BEFORE an emergency. Use a
trackday or an advanced driver course or a very big paddock with no trees
or burrows. Condition your responses so that the RIGHT response becomes
your panic reaction.