Offboard hybridization

[jim beam]

The "IMPROPER use" problem is a human one. Too many people think that if
a little bit makes it start (albeit slowly), a whole bunch more will
make it start RIGHT NOW.

indeed. excess ether is just excess fuel delivery. on a diesel, that's
a problem. it's got nothing to do with /what/ that fuel is.

The same problem exists when "priming" a gasoline engine with liquid
gasoline poured or sprayed into the intake.

except that flooded gasoline prevents starting - so it's kind of
self-limiting on gas engines.

That's why the "ether start systems" came out years ago (IIRC, the
military started that back in WWII). All those do (basically) is inject
a measured "known good" amount of ether. Some of them have interlocks
and timing systems, but it's still the same basic idea, preventing
overkill.

I've "ethered" thousands of gasoline and diesel engines over the years
manually and have never "lifted a head", but just because I said this,
it'll happen on the next one!

since you seem to be capable of reading the label on the can, if you
encounter a problem, it's going to be coincidence of something already
wrong with the motor, not anything to do with ether.

 

[jim beam]

Don't be hard on yourself. You seem to be smarter than
you try to appear with the claim that a cheap ass passenger car
that detroit bean counters worked tirelessly on could ever match
the sophistication and all weather performance of a quarter million
"nearly everything is heated" rig delivering a trailerful of diapers
to the frigid parts of the canada.

I have no problem with an idea of a $40k+ diesel. But I hardly doubt
FHI could build a sub $30k one
with the corner cases (frigid weather) handled properly.

rather than baselessly speculate from in front of a tv that
drip-drip-drip's you anti-diesel propaganda because it's in the
interests of the controlling oligarchy to keep selling you inefficient
vehicles that consume way more fuel than necessary, buy yourself a plane
ticket and go to sweden, norway, finland, russia, or any other frigid
country where they actually run diesels in the winter. there you will
see all kinds of cheap diesel cars making mockery of our propaganda.

there are other reasons to go to these countries as well, but that's
beyond the scope of this newsgroup.

 

[hls]

The "IMPROPER use" problem is a human one. Too many people think that if a
little bit makes it start (albeit slowly), a whole bunch more will make it
start RIGHT NOW.

The same problem exists when "priming" a gasoline engine with liquid
gasoline poured or sprayed into the intake.

That's why the "ether start systems" came out years ago (IIRC, the
military started that back in WWII). All those do (basically) is inject a
measured "known good" amount of ether. Some of them have interlocks and
timing systems, but it's still the same basic idea, preventing overkill.

I've "ethered" thousands of gasoline and diesel engines over the years
manually and have never "lifted a head", but just because I said this,
it'll happen on the next one!

We had a diesel forklift in our warehouse, and the driver
started it a few times with ether spray. It would never start
after that unless you used the ether. Local diesel mechanic
claimed that premature detonation (on the compression
cycle) could slightly twist the crankshaft, leading to this
condition. Whether true or old wive's tale, this was my
experience with it, and I had no reason to argue with
experience.

 

[jim beam]

We had a diesel forklift in our warehouse, and the driver
started it a few times with ether spray. It would never start
after that unless you used the ether. Local diesel mechanic
claimed that premature detonation (on the compression
cycle) could slightly twist the crankshaft, leading to this
condition. Whether true or old wive's tale, this was my
experience with it, and I had no reason to argue with
experience.

"your experience"? apparently, it wasn't you using the ether so you
have no idea how much the guy was really throwing down there, and it was
your mechanic telling you what would shut you up - again, not your
diagnosis.

as for old wives tales or abuse, abuse is using excess, and you'd have
that problem with any fuel you throw unmetered into a diesel. and for
old wives tales, the engine was worn or defective - that's why it needed
ether in the first place. healthy correctly working diesels with the
correct fuel grade don't /need/ ether. all this b.s. about being "ether
dependent" is the excuse of those who are in denial about having to pay
for a rebuild or paying to get the thing maintained by someone that
actually knows what they're doing - just like the competency problems
you have with ordinary cars and gasoline engine mechanics.

 

[clare]

We had a diesel forklift in our warehouse, and the driver
started it a few times with ether spray. It would never start
after that unless you used the ether. Local diesel mechanic
claimed that premature detonation (on the compression
cycle) could slightly twist the crankshaft, leading to this
condition. Whether true or old wive's tale, this was my
experience with it, and I had no reason to argue with
experience.

Two problems with improper ether use. One is mechamical damage from
too heavy a hit which can break pistons or rings - damage bearings,
crack heads, blow head gaskets - the other is washdown of cyl walls -
which can cause cyl scoring and loss of compression.

Anything that reduces engine compression can make a diesel difficult
to start. Twisting the crank is a theoretical possibilty - but it
ranks up there pretty close to getting to the moon without a rocket.

 

[jim beam]

Two problems with improper ether use. One is mechamical damage from
too heavy a hit which can break pistons or rings - damage bearings,
crack heads, blow head gaskets - the other is washdown of cyl walls -
which can cause cyl scoring and loss of compression.

Anything that reduces engine compression can make a diesel difficult
to start. Twisting the crank is a theoretical possibilty - but it
ranks up there pretty close to getting to the moon without a rocket.

the service mechanic's translation for "you have a twisted crank" is:

"you're a bunch of clueless retards. i'm going to tell you something so
you take it somewhere else and i don't have to deal with your dumb asses
anymore."

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

We had a diesel forklift in our warehouse, and the driver
started it a few times with ether spray.  It would never start
after that unless you used the ether.   Local diesel mechanic
claimed that premature detonation (on the compression
cycle) could slightly twist the crankshaft, leading to this
condition.  Whether true or old wive's tale, this was my
experience with it, and I had no reason to argue with
experience.

Used to have to pump up hydraulic starters on diesel generators/
hydraulic pumps on offshore skid units. Always used a little ether in
the wintertime.

good times....good times

 

[hls]

Anything that reduces engine compression can make a diesel difficult
to start. Twisting the crank is a theoretical possibilty - but it
ranks up there pretty close to getting to the moon without a rocket.

But, that was apparently what had happened.

 

[jim beam]

But, that was apparently what had happened.

no, it's what you were /told/ was happened. told by someone who didn't
want to deal with idiots who couldn't maintain their vehicle properly
and were compounding the problem by abusing it when it started to fail.

as for the possibility of bending a crank, have you the slightest clue
what kind of force that would require? hint - it's more than it would
take to burst through an aluminum cylinder crown. even if you're
filling the cylinder with tnt, and by no means are you doing that with
ether whose energy yield is only 31.7MJ/kg vs 45.7MJ/kg for diesel,
you'd sure need one heck of a lot to get there. as opposed of course to
metal fatigue which is a known issue with any high hours engine, and
diesels are absolutely no exception, especially the cheaper ones.

 

[clare]

But, that was apparently what had happened.

Was it ever confirmed? because bending the crank would cause a whole
lot of other issues - like extreme rough running etc - and MOST cranks
would break before they would bend. Like 99.9999% or better.

My bet is the engine lost compression for one reason or another -
scored cyl or broken rings being the most likely.

 

[hls]

Was it ever confirmed? because bending the crank would cause a whole
lot of other issues - like extreme rough running etc - and MOST cranks
would break before they would bend. Like 99.9999% or better.

My bet is the engine lost compression for one reason or another -
scored cyl or broken rings being the most likely.

Why would you think we called in a local diesel mechanic?
Yes, the forklift was repaired, and this was the diagnosis.

 

[jim beam]

Why would you think we called in a local diesel mechanic?
Yes, the forklift was repaired, and this was the diagnosis.

iow, you got sold a new engine. because you don't straighten cranks -
they're too hard to bend. and the mechanic didn't want to deal with the
problems the abuse had caused.

 

[AD]

rather than baselessly speculate from in front of a tv that
drip-drip-drip's you anti-diesel propaganda because it's in the
interests of the controlling oligarchy to keep selling you inefficient
vehicles that consume way more fuel than necessary, buy yourself a plane
ticket and go to sweden, norway, finland, russia, or any other frigid
country where they actually run diesels in the winter.  there you will
see all kinds of cheap diesel cars making mockery of our propaganda.

Yes, some diesels here run fine most of the time. But they are not
without a problems.
They *do* get stuck when it;'s below -25C (around -10F I'd guess)
and primarily because the cheapasses who don't want to pay for gas
neglected
the maintenance as well. Of course starting a gas engine at -25C takes
a toll
on a gas engine as well.

Another reason diesels are bought here is because some folk at the
public transit, etc
have a side "business" selling the diesel that belongs to their
employer to the
above mentioned cheapskates.

I'd have no problem buying a diesel as a second car in the family for
long demiseason trips,
having a gasoline fallback for a harsh winter month. If I had the
money that is.
That and needing to take long trips often.


And, then, there are folks who install gas equipment turning the car
into a bomb on wheels:
luckily, they have to repay their savings at the technical inspection
time.

If you want to run the car on the same fuel that heats your home and
forego spare tire and
half of the trunk then by all means you can join them.

 

[jim beam]

Yes, some diesels here run fine most of the time. But they are not
without a problems.
They *do* get stuck when it;'s below -25C (around -10F I'd guess)
and primarily because the cheapasses who don't want to pay for gas
neglected
the maintenance as well. Of course starting a gas engine at -25C takes
a toll
on a gas engine as well.

Another reason diesels are bought here is because some folk at the
public transit, etc
have a side "business" selling the diesel that belongs to their
employer to the
above mentioned cheapskates.

I'd have no problem buying a diesel as a second car in the family for
long demiseason trips,
having a gasoline fallback for a harsh winter month. If I had the
money that is.
That and needing to take long trips often.

apart from working on diesels professionally, i've owned diesels, and
one thing i definitely dislike about them is the fueling process. if
you get it on your hands, the stink stays for ages.

and in the old days of mechanical pumps and glow plugs, they were
clattery, noisy, and yes, sometimes hard to start. but modern
electronically controlled common rail direct injection diesels are a
whole different matter. fast, torquey, quiet, reliable, economical...
they're just awesome. really, oiligopilies aside, it's hard to
comprehend why we don't all use them.

 

[AD]

apart from working on diesels professionally, i've owned diesels, and

I take it that you drive 500+ newton-meters monster of an engine in
bmw 335d
as opposed to doing a 105 hp euro diesel penance in vw

that engine would be awful in the most areas in the states in anything
heavier than rabbit/golf
given that 2.0 liter 4 pot is considered "low displacement"

to clarify the context: are you residing in a snow or a sunbelt state
and what is the minimum temperature you are seeing in winter.