Offboard hybridization

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A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
lugging a huge battery onboard
when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
of a purpose built trailers.

This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
problem for BRZ in winter
by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
of folks
insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.

With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
of the battery should reliably
anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
spit between the wheels.

Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
600 kilo worth of meat
helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
double, but
then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
side)

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
lugging a huge battery onboard
when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
of a purpose built trailers.

This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
problem for BRZ in winter
by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
of folks
insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.

With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
of the battery should reliably
anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
spit between the wheels.

Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
600 kilo worth of meat
helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
double, but
then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
side)

I think Chrysler and others have done related concept vehicles - where
different components are hooked together. Like turning your small
commuter into a passenger van etc.

I suspect there are a lot of reasons why we don't see the kind of
innovation you're suggesting. Safety regs being one of them. Why try
something radically different if it opens you up to risks your
competitors aren't taking? In a climate where one or a dozen idiots, a
frenzied media, and 'maybe' a coupla sticking accelerator pedals can
almost bankrupt Toyota? I mean, we now have to have cars with
collision avoidance and back-up cameras. Imagine the average person
trying to regularly and SAFELY hook up to and drive with a trailer -
particularly one that may have huge amounts of battery energy stored
on board. And where do you park this thing when not being used?
I bet there are terabytes of cool ideas from automotive engineers that
are shelved because cars have to be built to easily and safely be
operated by folks that have the mental capacity of a distracted 3rd
grader.

 

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I think Chrysler and others have done related concept vehicles - where
different components are hooked together. Like turning your small
commuter into a passenger van etc.

I suspect there are a lot of reasons why we don't see the kind of
innovation you're suggesting. Safety regs being one of them. Why try
something radically different if it opens you up to risks your
competitors aren't taking? In a climate where one or a dozen idiots, a
frenzied media,  and 'maybe' a coupla sticking accelerator pedals can
almost bankrupt Toyota? I mean, we now have to have cars with
collision avoidance and back-up cameras. Imagine the average person
trying to regularly and SAFELY hook up to and drive with a trailer -
particularly one that may have huge amounts of battery energy stored
on board. And where do you park this thing when not being used?
I bet there are terabytes of cool ideas from automotive engineers that
are shelved because cars have to be built to easily and safely be
operated by folks that have the mental capacity of a distracted 3rd
grader.

Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
help myself.

In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
models only:
so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
solidifies
and the only way for you to get off the fucking motorway is by
electric
propulsion.

Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
of traffic congestion
they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
traffic.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
help myself.

In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
models only:
so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
solidifies
and the only way for you to get off the fucking motorway is by
electric
propulsion.

Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
of traffic congestion
they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
traffic.

I think hybrids have a place now in the market. But, I think they are
best suited to metro areas. They shine in 'city' driving and that's
where ground-level pollution is usually the worst, so the payoff with
'alternative' propulsion is highest. Prius and others don't really
have better highway mileage numbers than other similar gas-powered
vehicles. Hybrid or electric or compressed air w'ever - is best used
in taxi cabs and city buses and local delivery vehicles. It so happens
urban areas also frequently plow their streets I think so - AWD maybe
not necessary.

My mother-in-law has had a Prius - it had only slightly below average
reliability at best. My B-I-L also has had a Prius(it had problems)
and now has a hybrid Camry. But he is always on the highway and almost
any similar sized car would give him the same mileage. But he is an
'early adopter' type for any green tech. You can't reason with him. We
taxpayers have subsidized his purchase of 2 hybrid cars. We also
subsidized his installation of solar panels on his house. If it's such
outstanding technology, why does it need subsidies?

As for the boxer diesel, I think the Europeans love of diesel prompted
Subaru to chase more penetration in that market. I guess it's OK.
Subaru's models (legacy particularly) in the US have become bloated to
appeal to our market. Personally, I enjoy driving small, simple cars
and Subaru is almost leaving me behind. Even my wife is somewhat
shocked at the difference between new Outbacks and her 03 model. Where
I live though - I really have to wonder at my sanity for buying AWD
HAH!

 

[jim beam]

Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
help myself.

In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
models only:
so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
solidifies

ignorant underinformed drivel - apparently you've never heard of #1
diesel or kerosene, and haven't driven any diesel newer than 1970.

and the only way for you to get off the fucking motorway is by
electric
propulsion.

Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
of traffic congestion
they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
traffic.

would that be driving to the supermarket? you know, the one that's just
had its supplies of senior diapers delivered by diesel trucks that
effortlessly managed to avoid all the idiot car drivers crapping
themselves in their efforts to keep technology at bay and keep paying
through the ass for 17mpg vehicles when they could be driving 35's?

 

[ben91932]

A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
lugging a huge battery onboard
when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
of a purpose built trailers.

It's been tried before.
This guy:
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
built a cool one from scratch.
Others have tried it as well, and the consensus of those I am aware of
is that the frictional and aero losses of the trailer offsets the
expected gains.
Same goes for mounting a large generator on a trailer to run an ev.
HTH
Ben

 

[jim beam]

It's been tried before.
This guy:
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
built a cool one from scratch.
Others have tried it as well, and the consensus of those I am aware of
is that the frictional and aero losses of the trailer offsets the
expected gains.
Same goes for mounting a large generator on a trailer to run an ev.
HTH
Ben

i think the biggest issue is the practically of an articulated vehicle.
nobody would want to see my grandmother try to parallel park anything
with a trailer, let alone back it out of a driveway.

 

[clare]

Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
help myself.

In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
models only:
so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
solidifies
and the only way for you to get off the fucking motorway is by
electric
propulsion.

Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
of traffic congestion
they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
traffic.

Idiots that are too stupid or cheap to add winter fuel conditioner
shouldn't drive diesels. And a pre-heater never hurt either.

 

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 Idiots that are too stupid or cheap to add winter fuel conditioner
shouldn't drive diesels. And a pre-heater never hurt either.

Pre heater would not do you much good if the diesel solidifies in
the tank, diesel pump or the diesel lines going into the engine.
But, then, it's more of an issue for canadians.

Pre heater also adds complexity. You should've seen the guy poking in
the MMI menus on A6 to program the thing to start in a few minutes.

 

[AD]

It's been tried before.
This guy:http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
built a cool one from scratch.
Others have tried it as well, and the consensus of those I am aware of
is that the frictional and aero losses of the trailer offsets the
expected gains.
Same goes for mounting a large generator on a trailer to run an ev.
HTH
Ben

Built in palo alto as expected

The vehicle propelled looks like porsche boxter, I did not know
porsche made any EVs

 

[jim beam]

Pre heater would not do you much good if

"would"??? "if"??? you're obviously not speaking from experience.

the diesel solidifies in
the tank, diesel pump or the diesel lines going into the engine.
But, then, it's more of an issue for canadians.

and yet despite your fud, the canadians, [and russians, and alaskans]
seem to manage to run diesels throughout the winter. thus, you're
either willfully blind to reality, or you're just a troll seeking to
help keep americans stuck with low-efficiency vehicles while we waste
our money on foreign oil.

Pre heater also adds complexity. You should've seen the guy poking in
the MMI menus on A6 to program the thing to start in a few minutes.

as opposed to some guy poking about on the internet trying to find out
whether canadia shuts down every winter because he thinks they're so
retarded, they can't figure out what "diesel #1" is?

 

[weelliott]

A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
lugging a huge battery onboard
when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
of a purpose built trailers.

This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
problem for BRZ in winter
by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
of folks
insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.

With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
of the battery should reliably
anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
spit between the wheels.

Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
600 kilo worth of meat
helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
double, but
then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
side)

There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
levels of thrust.

Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.

Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
weight.

I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass. a Trailer capacble
of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the
car.

Bill

 

[jim beam]

There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
levels of thrust.

Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.

Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
weight.

I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass.

you've been brainwashed.

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/02/the-great-american-anti-towing-conspiracy/>

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...at-american-towing-conspiracy-lives-edition/>

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car. the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it. and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

sure, a more powerful vehicle would have been nice to have, and
certainly a good deal faster up hill, but our culturally ingrained fear
and trepidation about needing 5+ liters of v8 to tow <3000lbs of trailer
is without foundation, and frankly, after that experience, completely
ridiculous.

a Trailer capacble
of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the
car.

Bill

* "duallies" are a ridiculous concept. tires don't improve yaw
stability, suspension does. as long as detroit keeps churning out
trucks with leaf spring rears, we're always going to have towing yaw
stability problems.

 

[ben91932]

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car.  the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it.  and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
belief.
Ben

 

[jim beam]

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car. �the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it. �and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
belief.
Ben

simple leaf spring suspensions yaw - that's one of the fundamental
weaknesses of that configuration. multi-link suspension simply doesn't,
so it makes for a much more stable towing platform. i call that
stability "better handling", but you might have a different word for it.

 

[clare]

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car.  the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it.  and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
belief.
Ben

I'd carry a load with leaf springs over coil or independent ANY DAY
OF THE WEEK.

 

[jim beam]

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car. the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it. and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
belief.
Ben

I'd carry a load with leaf springs over coil or independent ANY DAY
OF THE WEEK.

well, leaf springs have the advantage of being dirt cheap and dirt cheap
to make progressive. and for the average american "truck", that never
gets loaded much more than grocery shopping and never tows and somehow
doesn't have to conform to any rollover safety testing or handling
standards, they sure are a great solution for the manufacturer.

but if you've ever driven [off road] in anything that has a real rear
end, like the hummer or even some of the wacky euro stuff, you'd be
singing a different song.

don't get me wrong - i have a leaf reared truck. i kind of like it.
and i like that it handles static loads easily. but its dynamic load
handling is just abysmal relative to any of the above. absolutely abysmal.

and don't get me started on ground clearance.

 

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don't get me wrong - i have a leaf reared truck.  i kind of like it.
and i like that it handles static loads easily.  but its dynamic load
handling is just abysmal relative to any of the above.  absolutely abysmal.

and don't get me started on ground clearance.

You lowered it? I somehow doubt it has less than 4" on my A4.

 

[AD]

There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
levels of thrust.

Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.

Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
weight.

I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass. a Trailer capacble
of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the

With the two axles the extra load on the rear of the car should be
minimal
if at all present. No?
If so then the (rear) tire load handling capacity should be
irrelevant.

 

[weelliott]

There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
levels of thrust.

Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.

Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
weight.

I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass.

you've been brainwashed.

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/02/the-great-american-anti-towi...>

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/whats-wrong-with-this-pictur...>

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car.  the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it.  and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

sure, a more powerful vehicle would have been nice to have, and
certainly a good deal faster up hill, but our culturally ingrained fear
and trepidation about needing 5+ liters of v8 to tow <3000lbs of trailer
is without foundation, and frankly, after that experience, completely
ridiculous.

a Trailer capacble
of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the
car.

Bill

* "duallies" are a ridiculous concept.  tires don't improve yaw
stability, suspension does.  as long as detroit keeps churning out
trucks with leaf spring rears, we're always going to have towing yaw
stability problems.

You're right all my engineering professors brainwashed me into
thinking that it's not a good idea to use the wrong tool for the job.
You might have successfully used an 1100 cc car to pull a trailer much
larger than the car itself, but you were confined to using first gear.
The fact that you then go into a discussion fo dynamic handling is
ironic since your system had just barely crossed the line from static
to dynamic.

There are many jobs that can be done with non-ideal tools, but it
either makes it harder or unsafe. I think that using a subaru to tow a
trailer at highway speeds that large is unsafe. Possible to do, but
unsafe.