H6 engine v. H4 in Subaru Outback wagon

[Florian Feuser /FFF/]

The vast majority of car owners don't discuss their vehicles on the
internet, so if the H6 really sucks, then it's unlikely to show up on
google.

Huh? What are we all doing here then?



On another note: The data collection mechanism may be solid but then again, no
one seems to ask what the actual or perceived problem is.

Could it be that the engine (produced since 2000, IIRC) has become problematic
over the last 2 years or are perhaps all the gadgets that come with the H6 (
onstar, electric seats etc.) that constitute additional points of failure?


Florian

 

[John M.]

Stay out of law enforcement as a career field, if
you really feel that way.

Steve

Steve,
I miss your point. Why do you say this? I do agree that I would rather not
be in law enforcement, at least in a direct way, as I'd just as soon shoot
everyone that can't 'behave'.
In any case, I'm interested in your thoughts.
John

 

[John M.]

Please cite a source on that one John. Consumer's Union/Consumer
Reports doesn't accept outside ad dollars, and they don't even let
manufacturers use their reports in marketing if the product happens to
do well. CU buys all items they test for their reports, and for used
car reliability, their information comes directly from
reader-submitted surveys.


Now Consumer's Digest, on the other hand, is a horse of quite another
color. If you want a consumer's digest best buy label on your
product, I'm pretty sure that baby is for sale.

Todd,
I have no source in the sense you are looking for. I do have my common
sense, intuition, and knowledge of human nature and business environments. I
am also very controversial and not afraid to challenge the status quo. I
believe it is naive to think that CU/CR is not influenced in some way, shape
or form. Every example that you cite as to their 'reliability' are easily
accountable as a 'front'. There are hundreds of holes you can poke in each
argument.
Again, I rely upon my own informed opinions, knowledge, and judgement.
Anyone that does not speak from the same aspect (i.e. relies upon someone
else) is working from second hand information.... something that is always
inherently suspect, at least in my opinion.
Regards,
John

 

[John M.]

(especially 6cyl) available on the market. John

That's easy, John. Since these reviews are "bought and sold" there doesn't
*need* to be any actual sampling of cars. Right?

- Greg Reed

Greg,
Actually, your followup works for me. <smile> Regardless of their sample
size, I would not trust their reports, nor anyone elses. It's anathema in a
capitalistic society.
Regards,
John

 

[John M.]

For a 2003, there should be very few cars having

any problems at all, and certain problems are
especially rare (statistically) in one-year old
cars.

Given that the car is new, you would expect no 'wear' or age type issues.
Grave engineering or manufacturing errors could indeed possibly show up in
this stage... and in my assessment, generally across most of the user
spectrum. A small sample group is still that... small. The smaller it is in
relation to the total user population, the less significant a single
instance or problem would be. It's true that people tend to 'bitch' about
the negatives (I tend in that direction, like most) and remain 'quiet' about
*not* having any problems. This tendency certainly does bias any sample
group in the negative direction.

So if you combine your observation (that there
are not that many H6's running around, in the
first place) with CU receiving reports of
problems in 03s, then that makes it even more
serious (seriouser?!?!). Hmmmm....

In my mind, this makes me wonder where/how they determined their sample
group. Certainly no one asked me. Again, from my experience, others
experience here, and many many sites on the web, there is an overwhelming
evidence to the contrary that Subarus are problematic. Again, I have many
sites and links available from my research. I would be happy to provide upon
request.

However, I'd wager there are statistically MORE
Suby owners who are CU readers than
average...since Subies are such smart cahs to
buy...heheheheh.

You are probably correct here. In fact Subaru knows their customer base very
well. If it was true that Subaru readers read CU (I personally don't think
it jives with what a 'typical' Subaru owner is), then Subaru should/would be
concerned about negative press. But maybe they are really smart enough to
know how to do business, and are doing just that.

So you're from Bouwston, eh? *-)
John

 

[John M.]

CR's data collection mechanism is solid, so if you have data for 100
identical year/make cars, then let's hear about it. Your sample is a single
data point, where CU has many more. (I thought I read the minimum once, but
it's been too long to remember)

How do you know this? My objective sample is a single experience, however, I
have 3 Subarus, know much about the engineering and technology about the
make. I also am not alone in my assertion that these are reliable, well
engineered cars. There are many, many instances that report just that on the
Internet.

What CR's 'not recommended' designation means is that as compared to other
makes/models, the 2003 H6 was in the lowest group. When these cars hit the
used market, CR's stats (and >20 years of experience) say they will be less
reliable than other cars, so they recommend to buy something else that's
more reliable. It's a simple concept. Maybe the H6 has early trouble and
will lose its spot on the list next year.

I would like to poll this group:
How many H6 owners have had any problems with their vehicles? I'll start:
2002 H6 VDC Sedan with 37,500 miles and 27 months old. Problems:
1 - Parking rod mechanism; fixed under recall
2 - Cruise control cable; fixed under recent recall
3 - I'm thinking....
4 - I'm still thinking....
5 - oh yeah, the automatic climate control drives me crazy; does that count?
6 - nothing else to report.

On a slight tangent, I owned a car many years ago that CR deemed less-than a
good choice because, of all idiotic things, the turn signal lever was too
far back from the steering wheel. They felt that too many drivers wouldn't
use their signal (like that's really their excuse...) because the lever was
slightly farther away. That damn report persisted, the car's US-made body
came apart while the Mitsu engine was a dream. My first (and last) new
car...

On your tangent, that somewhat supports my thoughts. Make up your own mind.
Use your own judgement. Check things out for yourself. We are all capable of
doing so.

The vast majority of car owners don't discuss their vehicles on the
internet, so if the H6 really sucks, then it's unlikely to show up on
google.

It is a well known fact that people are much more likely to complain than to
praise. It's very much human nature. While I would agree with you that most
car owners don't discuss their vehicles on the internet (nor do they most
folks use the internet/newsgroups period), you can generally find pros and
cons of just about anything. Again, you must filter the information you come
across. Many of the websites I cite are not just individual owners, but
other review sites, businesses, and other parties involved in the automobile
industry.
And to nit pick, I do not just Google. I have a comprehensive search engine
(Copernic Plus) that queries many, many sites.
John

 

[Todd H.]

Todd, I have no source in the sense you are looking for. I do have
my common sense, intuition, and knowledge of human nature and
business environments. I am also very controversial and not afraid
to challenge the status quo.

IME, that's code for "an unreasonable PITA that's immune to logic and
probably wraps themselves up in a quote from Einstein about 'violent
opposition from mediocre minds.'" But whatever floats yer boat.

I believe it is naive to think that CU/CR is not influenced in some
way, shape or form. Every example that you cite as to their
'reliability' are easily accountable as a 'front'. There are
hundreds of holes you can poke in each argument.

Oh, I see. For me to continue to converse with you, i'll have to ask
you to remove the foil hat you're wearing to keep "them" from stealing
your thoughts.

Consumers Union exists as it does to be free from this sort of bias.
If you can't trust their being relatively free from bias, you really
can't trust any review or rating.

You can poke holes in their testing methodology if ya like, or the
criteria on which they issue their recommendations, but the integrity
of the institution is probably not something that's terribly
vulnerable for the reason that they're set up with a lot of care to be
free from the sort of bias you allege (completely unsubstantiated).

Best Regards,

 

[CompUser]

@allthenewsgroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...

I miss your point. Why do you say this? I do agree that I would rather not
be in law enforcement, at least in a direct way, as I'd just as soon shoot
everyone that can't 'behave'.
In any case, I'm interested in your thoughts.

We're kinda getting OT here, but your viewpoint
strikes me as "There's some scumbags out there,
so everyone sucks!"....the "cogito, ergo scum"
concept...ultimate surrender.

 

[Ignignokt]

John M. wrote:

Again, I rely upon my own informed opinions, knowledge, and judgement.
Anyone that does not speak from the same aspect (i.e. relies upon
someone else) is working from second hand information.... something
that is always inherently suspect, at least in my opinion.

No one here is suggesting that anybody go out and buy a vehicle based solely
upon a CR appraisal. CR shouldn't and doesn't exist in a complete vacuum.
The CR appraisal should be used as *one* source of input in one's buying
decision. And while firsthand accounts may be more accurate than CR's
appraisals (and I said "may" be more accurate -- they may also be *less*
accurate) you're *never* going to be able to communicate firsthand with
current and former Subaru Legacy H6 owners (for example) in anywhere near
the numbers that CR uses in forming its appraisals.

- Greg Reed

 

[John M.]

Stay out of law enforcement as a career field, if

We're kinda getting OT here, but your viewpoint
strikes me as "There's some scumbags out there,
so everyone sucks!"....the "cogito, ergo scum"
concept...ultimate surrender.

Well, I must admit that I am very much a cynic. I do realize I come across
as you've described... I have met some wonderful people... and I believe
most people are good, and want to do good. But I am very perceptive, and
sensitive, to some of our human frailties (including my own). Perhaps I just
let the few (?) scum bags get to me too much.
John

 

[John M.]

IME, that's code for "an unreasonable PITA that's immune to logic and
probably wraps themselves up in a quote from Einstein about 'violent
opposition from mediocre minds.'" But whatever floats yer boat.


Oh, I see. For me to continue to converse with you, i'll have to ask
you to remove the foil hat you're wearing to keep "them" from stealing
your thoughts.

Consumers Union exists as it does to be free from this sort of bias.
If you can't trust their being relatively free from bias, you really
can't trust any review or rating.

You can poke holes in their testing methodology if ya like, or the
criteria on which they issue their recommendations, but the integrity
of the institution is probably not something that's terribly
vulnerable for the reason that they're set up with a lot of care to be
free from the sort of bias you allege (completely unsubstantiated).

Todd,
I must admit that most of your reply does not make sense to me (fault on my
part I suppose). Perhaps we really are two very different individuals. I
simply do not understand where you are coming from, but I do respect your
position. I will be honest and say this: please don't read anything into
what I've written (i.e. code)... it's not code... it's the exact words I can
best use to describe my thoughts, 2) I don't know what PITA is, 3) I am a
very logical person, but admittedly cynical and stubborn, 4) I'm not worried
about anyone either stealing my thoughts nor replacing them (foil hat?), 5)
There is quite a bitof accuracy in your statement that I don't (inherently)
trust any review or rating, 6) As far as immunity/vulnerability to 'bias',
all I need do is point out the US government that is supposedly 'bias'
free... and is sorely, and embarrassingly anything but.
John

 

[John M.]

No one here is suggesting that anybody go out and buy a vehicle based solely
upon a CR appraisal. CR shouldn't and doesn't exist in a complete vacuum.
The CR appraisal should be used as *one* source of input in one's buying
decision. And while firsthand accounts may be more accurate than CR's
appraisals (and I said "may" be more accurate -- they may also be *less*
accurate) you're *never* going to be able to communicate firsthand with
current and former Subaru Legacy H6 owners (for example) in anywhere near
the numbers that CR uses in forming its appraisals.

- Greg Reed

Greg,
I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. My irritation stems from those that
seem to hold up their 'one' source and degradate a whole brand of vehicle,
amoung other things. Everyone should collect whatever information they can,
make their own informed decisions, and then make their decision. To hold up
any one source as involitle is naive.
I would push back in one area: I think it is very much possible to touch
base with other H6 owners. We are doing that very thing in this newsgroup.
How many data points does one need? The odds are very very high that if I
formed a relationship with one or two trusted folks in this newsgroup, that
I would value their thoughts and inputs much more highly than any
supposedly-non-biased entity.
John

 

[MH]

Everyone should collect whatever information they can,

make their own informed decisions, and then make their decision.

So we're not allowed to enter data, only collect it? Where does the data
come from then?

 

[John O]

CR's data collection mechanism is solid, so if you have data for 100

How do you know this?

Several years ago they printed their methods in the auto issue, or the
survey sent to members, or somewhere. Been too long to remember, but I saw
the minimum number once. It's possible that number is real low, but the
bottom line is that the surveys detected a pattern.

If you know that whole corporate thing, then you know that potential legal
problems often rule management decisions. It's easy to say all cars are
great, and everybody will love you. I suppose JD Powers fits that model
somewhat. But listing a car on the 'Avoid' list is just asking for trouble,
and I bet that decision isn't made by the schlub they just hired to scan the
surveys. There are probably people at SoA just like you who saw CU call
their baby ugly, probably lawyers too, and no doubt they have contacted CU
to see the data with their own eyes, or whatever a company does when CU says
their baby is ugly.

What I like about CU is that they have the cojones to call it like they see
it.

-John O

 

[John O]

The vast majority of car owners don't discuss their vehicles on the

Huh? What are we all doing here then?

There might be what, a thousand people reading this NG? Two thousand? No
way to know, really, but how many Subaru owners are there?

-John O

 

[Todd H.]

What I like about CU is that they have the cojones to call it like
they see it.

Well put.

 

[John M.]

Everyone should collect whatever information they can,

So we're not allowed to enter data, only collect it? Where does the data
come from then?

The data comes from many places. In general, I do not trust 'organized'
sources.
They are inherently suspect. There are many places to get data and
information that do not involve organizations that possibly have agendas.
John

 

[John M.]

CR's data collection mechanism is solid, so if you have data for 100

Several years ago they printed their methods in the auto issue, or the
survey sent to members, or somewhere. Been too long to remember, but I saw
the minimum number once. It's possible that number is real low, but the
bottom line is that the surveys detected a pattern.

If you know that whole corporate thing, then you know that potential legal
problems often rule management decisions. It's easy to say all cars are
great, and everybody will love you. I suppose JD Powers fits that model
somewhat. But listing a car on the 'Avoid' list is just asking for trouble,
and I bet that decision isn't made by the schlub they just hired to scan the
surveys. There are probably people at SoA just like you who saw CU call
their baby ugly, probably lawyers too, and no doubt they have contacted CU
to see the data with their own eyes, or whatever a company does when CU says
their baby is ugly.

What I like about CU is that they have the cojones to call it like they see
it.

But you don't respect an individual that does likewise? It seems as if I
have bothered quite a few folks here by questioning their 'trusted'
institutions. I absolutely respect anyone who 'calls it like they see it'
provided the 'call' is objective. Hmm....
John

 

[Edward Hayes]

I may be wrong but the minimum CR ratings were1,500 for everyday drivers and
maybe 500 on selected models like Porsche.

 

[C. Brunner]

I would like to poll this group:
How many H6 owners have had any problems with their vehicles? I'll start:
2002 H6 VDC Sedan with 37,500 miles and 27 months old. Problems:
1 - Parking rod mechanism; fixed under recall
2 - Cruise control cable; fixed under recent recall
3 - I'm thinking....
4 - I'm still thinking....
5 - oh yeah, the automatic climate control drives me crazy; does that count?
6 - nothing else to report.

I have a 2003 H6 OBW that I bought new last June. I received a JD
Powers survey form a few months after I bought the car, and I did
register a few gripes but they were all minor. These were/are the
things that annoy me about this car, which now has about 11,000 miles
on the odometer:
1. I really don't like the automatic climate control. It thinks it's
smart, and it's difficult to override (it keeps re-setting to what I
don't want). Not an engineering problem--just a driver preference
issue, I guess.
2. Tailgate latch doesn't always latch tightly. The tailgate *feels*
latched, but the dash indicator light stays on and the dome light
stays on. It has sat that way all night, twice. Haven't had a dead
battery yet, though.
3. Needing special washers for the oil drain valve is a nuisance. Auto
supply stores don't have 'em--the ones they sell are rubber or
plastic, and they eventually leak. You have to get 'em from Subaru,
apparently.
4. The engine down-shifts too far when going up slight inclines with
the cruise control on--but mostly just when my husband is driving. It
doesn't seem to do that as much when I'm driving. I have no clue why
there would be a difference in the way the cruise behaves with
different drivers. (I do have a light foot...) This downshift
problem didn't occur when we first bought the car--in fact, that was
one reason why we chose the 6-cyl instead of buying another slightly
underpowered 4-cyl like the '98 OBW I was trading.
5. There's quite a bit of wind noise at highway speeds. Some is just
at the driver's side window (needs adjustment?), but there is also
some from the roof--maybe the roof rack?

Those are very minor problems. This is my fourth new car in 30 years,
and my second new Suby. I really like this car. At this point, I see
no reason why I shouldn't buy another Subaru next time.

C. Brunner