E85 -- experience

[Uncle Ben]

Here is the address of a thread about a WRX owner who converted his
car to E85 by changing to larger fuel injectors -- nothing else

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

He has two years of experience with it and loves it.

Ben

 

[Steve Daniels]

After 70 miles, the MIL (CEL) light went on because of the
lean mixture.

You have a Mother In Law light?

That's gotta suck.

 

[Uncle Ben]

You have a Mother In Law light?

That's gotta suck.
--

That's Mothers I'd Like to meet.

Actually it's the formal name of the Check Engine Light,
and the translation is Malfunction Indicator Light.

 

[Tony Hwang]

Here is the address of a thread about a WRX owner who converted his
car to E85 by changing to larger fuel injectors -- nothing else

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

He has two years of experience with it and loves it.

Ben

Hi,
If you changed fuel. Wouldn't it proper to disconnect battery and let
the ECU learn again?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hi,
If you changed fuel. Wouldn't it proper to disconnect battery and let
the ECU learn again?

Tony, the ECU did learn again, without my disconnecting the battery.
I don't know enojugh about this question to answer or explain it, but
everything worked OK. I suppose the mixture is monitored continuously
and the injector pulse is then continuously being adjusted.

BTW, changing from E42 to E29 and driving a bit managed to turn off
the MIL again. It took 70 miles at E42 to bring on the MIL but only 7
miles at E29 to turn it off again. I would guess that that means I
went just over the line at E42.

My converter kit should arrive in 3 days, and then I should be ready
for E85.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Tony, the ECU did learn again, without my disconnecting the battery.
I don't know enojugh about this question to answer or explain it, but
everything worked OK. I suppose the mixture is monitored continuously
and the injector pulse is then continuously being adjusted.

BTW, changing from E42 to E29 and driving a bit managed to turn off
the MIL again. It took 70 miles at E42 to bring on the MIL but only 7
miles at E29 to turn it off again. I would guess that that means I
went just over the line at E42.

My converter kit should arrive in 3 days, and then I should be ready
for E85.

It will, learn eventually. But , if you expect HIGHER octane, it is
probably better to force the ECU back to the factory map. Then it starts
from max advance and retards on knock detection. If you don't do that,
and the system has already retarded the timing, it may take a very long
time to advance it, if ever.

I hope I have that right. Anyway, you should really consider resetting
the ECU with a scanner or by battery disconnect/w'ever. AND use multiple
tankfuls for any mileage calculations.


Carl

 

[Tony Hwang]

Tony, the ECU did learn again, without my disconnecting the battery.
I don't know enojugh about this question to answer or explain it, but
everything worked OK. I suppose the mixture is monitored continuously
and the injector pulse is then continuously being adjusted.

BTW, changing from E42 to E29 and driving a bit managed to turn off
the MIL again. It took 70 miles at E42 to bring on the MIL but only 7
miles at E29 to turn it off again. I would guess that that means I
went just over the line at E42.

My converter kit should arrive in 3 days, and then I should be ready
for E85.

Hi,
If you reset the ECU it'll learn faster. That's what I used to do.

 

[Dominic Richens]

Here is the address of a thread about a WRX owner who converted his
car to E85 by changing to larger fuel injectors -- nothing else

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

He has two years of experience with it and loves it.

Do you have a laptop you can connect to the OBDII port? Would be
interesting to log the O2 sensor and STFT/LTFT data, along with MAF, RPM and
speed so you can watch the ECU trying to compensate.

You'd need to buy an interface box - I got my ELM327 box off eBay for 1
euro, 20$ shipping from Hong Kong - (said it only worked with CAN-BUS but
works fine with my 95 Legacy's OBD-II)

 

[Uncle Ben]

Do you have a laptop you can connect to the OBDII port?  Would be
interesting to log the O2 sensor and STFT/LTFT data, along with MAF, RPM and
speed so you can watch the ECU trying to compensate.

You'd need to buy an interface box - I got my ELM327 box off eBay for 1
euro, 20$ shipping from Hong Kong - (said it only worked with CAN-BUS but
works fine with my 95 Legacy's OBD-II)

Yes, I do, but I tried to save a few bucks by getting the model that
only gives the codes, not all the rest of the diagnostic data. Your
choice was better.

There is a YouTube video that shows a disassmbly of an engine that
ran, unmodified, for 102,000 miles on E85. No problem. Ethanol is
just not that dangerous to your car. That was what encouraged me to
try E42 on my still unmodified 1999 OB.

Thanks for the constructive suggestion anyway.

Ben

 

[Dano58]

Yes, I do, but I tried to save a few bucks by getting the model that
only gives the codes, not all the rest of the diagnostic data. Your
choice was better.

There is a YouTube video that shows a disassmbly of an engine that
ran, unmodified, for 102,000 miles on E85. No problem. Ethanol is
just not that dangerous to your car. That was what encouraged me to
try E42 on my still unmodified 1999 OB.

Thanks for the constructive suggestion anyway.

Ben

Ben, you believe everything you see on YouTube? ;-)

Regardless, I'm interested in your experiment, although you might have
trouble getting your car to pass an emissions test, based on the fact
that there aren't any 'conversion kits' certified by the EPA. To
really judge the impact, you should do a smog test immediately before
and immediately after the conversion.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

 

[Uncle Ben]

Ben, you believe everything you see on YouTube? ;-)

Regardless, I'm interested in your experiment, although you might have
trouble getting your car to pass an emissions test, based on the fact
that there aren't any 'conversion kits' certified by the EPA. To
really judge the impact, you should do a smog test immediately before
and immediately after the conversion.

 

[Uncle Ben]

...
although you might have

trouble getting your car to pass an emissions test, based on the fact
that there aren't any 'conversion kits' certified by the EPA. To
really judge the impact, you should do a smog test immediately before
and immediately after the conversion.

Actually, the kit I have ordered has been given EPA approval,
according to www.change2e85.com . I think there is at least one
other,

I don't know the details of NYS inspection for emissions. If it is
just regarding the MIL, I have already cleared it with a few miles of
driving on E29.

Regarding ethanol energy balance see

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/Biomass/forum.shtml

which cites the Pimental paper along with several others refuting it.
There is also a quotation about the energy balance of gasoline and
MBTE.

 

[Uncle Ben]

It will, learn eventually. But , if you expect HIGHER octane, it is
probably better to force the ECU back to the factory map. Then it starts
from max advance and retards on knock detection. If you don't do that,
and the system has already retarded the timing, it may take a very long
time to advance it, if ever.

Thanks, Tony and Carl, for the info on MAPs and ECUs and changing
fuels. I had never known about these things before.

But what I am doing (when my kit comes) is to convert my car to an
FFV. So the design goal is to enable me to change fuels drastically
and often. On the road I might be running E85, fuel getting low, and
no E85 station within 100 miles. I would then switch to E0, or pure
gasoline. That is supposed to be routine. I shouldn't have to
disconnect the battery every time.

I remember reading that the FFVs detect the concentration of ethanol
and adjust quickly to it. I don't know what sensor detects the
change, but it must be there somewhere.

In my recent experiments before installing the kit, if there were
drastic errors in timing and mixtures, I should have experienced poor
acceleration, stumbling, or even stalling, not to mention poor
mileage. In fact, that did not happen. I can't explain it, but
things went very smoothly, and the cars pep and smooth running was
great.

Cars are getting too complicated for us amateurs!

Ben

 

[Frank Boettcher]

Ben, you believe everything you see on YouTube? ;-)

Regardless, I'm interested in your experiment, although you might have
trouble getting your car to pass an emissions test, based on the fact
that there aren't any 'conversion kits' certified by the EPA. To
really judge the impact, you should do a smog test immediately before
and immediately after the conversion.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

Certainly not as reliable a source as YouTube, but......

http://autos.aol.com/article/hybrid/v2/_a/are-there-problems-with-e85/20060427121009990001

Frank

 

[Uncle Ben]

Certainly not as reliable a source as YouTube, but......

http://autos.aol.com/article/hybrid/v2/_a/are-there-problems-with-e85...

Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Note that the title of the article is a question, not a claim. The
article doesn't quote any actual experience with E85, just theoretical
predictions. Let's look at some real data:

Fuel efficiency: Not a 40% reduction; a 5% reduction, more or less
according to how one drives. And that is in miles/gallon, not miles/
dollar, which increases. In my case using E30, the drop was from 25 to
24 mpg, which is subject to refinement as I get more experience.
Today I install my kit and can burn E85. Will report.

Price:--Not more than gasoline; 25% less than gasoline at my station
in NY. In CO, some stations discount much more And that is with the
current scarce production of ethanol. (In Brazil they make ethanol
for 83 cents per gallon.)

Smog:-- Not a rise in organic emissions; an actual reduction in
organic emmissions by 40% or more. In FFVs or conversions with good
kits, one approaches stochiometric combustion. And there are hardly
any particulates in the exhaust, unlike gasoline. (Particulates form
nucleation points for smog creation.)

And then there are the advantages. No billions of dollars sent to
OPEC!

Thanks, Frank, for providing a chance to discuss these questions.

Ben

 

[Rick Courtright]

I don't know the details of NYS inspection for emissions. If it is
just regarding the MIL, I have already cleared it with a few miles of
driving on E29.

Hi,

I don't know about other States' emissions procedures, but here's a
"thought" from California:

As some of you already know, we've got the strictest emissions laws in
the US, and simple EPA certification is not always sufficient to pass.
Many of you US drivers/owners know about the "California" and "49 State"
cars...

Anyway, aftermarket mods that relate to emissions are generally
certified out here by CARB (Calif Air Resources Board--or Bureau?) and
should ship w/ an approval sticker in the box. When a car's smogged out
here, it goes thru both a visual and an actual emissions test regimen.
The visual includes inspection for missing, disconnected or damaged
elements of the system, plus inspection of any aftermarket changes.

So my next door neighbor installed a CARB certified intake device, and
put the sticker under the hood. Then he took the car to be inspected.
The fellow doing the work looked at the new system, then asked where the
sticker was. Neighbor pointed it out, and all was good. Inspector told
him that even though this particular system had been approved, if the
sticker is NOT installed on the vehicle, he has to fail the car on
visual!

I know, it's one of those stupid bureaucratic things, but still one of
those where you need to know the rules before starting to play the game
so you don't lose by default! A call to your local emissions testing
station might be worthwhile...

Rick

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hi,

I don't know about other States' emissions procedures, but here's a
"thought" from California:

As some of you already know, we've got the strictest emissions laws in
the US, and simple EPA certification is not always sufficient to pass.
Many of you US drivers/owners know about the "California" and "49 State"
cars...

Anyway, aftermarket mods that relate to emissions are generally
certified out here by CARB (Calif Air Resources Board--or Bureau?) and
should ship w/ an approval sticker in the box. When a car's smogged out
here, it goes thru both a visual and an actual emissions test regimen.
The visual includes inspection for missing, disconnected or damaged
elements of the system, plus inspection of any aftermarket changes.

So my next door neighbor installed a CARB certified intake device, and
put the sticker under the hood. Then he took the car to be inspected.
The fellow doing the work looked at the new system, then asked where the
sticker was. Neighbor pointed it out, and all was good. Inspector told
him that even though this particular system had been approved, if the
sticker is NOT installed on the vehicle, he has to fail the car on
visual!

I know, it's one of those stupid bureaucratic things, but still one of
those where you need to know the rules before starting to play the game
so you don't lose by default! A call to your local emissions testing
station might be worthwhile...

Rick

Thanks, Rick. I do know that New York is not that strict. I don't
think we even have any emissions testing stations.

The converter I have has NOT been CARB approved, in spite of having
been EPA approved for cars with OBDII. I think maybe California is
protecting themselves right out of some helpful things.

Ben


Ben

 

[Frank Boettcher]

Note that the title of the article is a question, not a claim. The
article doesn't quote any actual experience with E85, just theoretical
predictions. Let's look at some real data:

Fuel efficiency: Not a 40% reduction; a 5% reduction, more or less
according to how one drives. And that is in miles/gallon, not miles/
dollar, which increases. In my case using E30, the drop was from 25 to
24 mpg, which is subject to refinement as I get more experience.
Today I install my kit and can burn E85. Will report.

Price:--Not more than gasoline; 25% less than gasoline at my station
in NY. In CO, some stations discount much more And that is with the
current scarce production of ethanol. (In Brazil they make ethanol
for 83 cents per gallon.)

Smog:-- Not a rise in organic emissions; an actual reduction in
organic emmissions by 40% or more. In FFVs or conversions with good
kits, one approaches stochiometric combustion. And there are hardly
any particulates in the exhaust, unlike gasoline. (Particulates form
nucleation points for smog creation.)

And then there are the advantages. No billions of dollars sent to
OPEC!

Thanks, Frank, for providing a chance to discuss these questions.

You know, you're right. Each time I or anyone post an alternative
view it allows you another opportunity to present some more
unsubtantiated propaganda. Won't happen again.

With reagard to the referenced article by U. S. News and World Report,
I'll let those who wish to read it to make up their minds about the
meaning of the title.

Frank

 

[Uncle Ben]

... Each time I or anyone post an alternative

view it allows you another opportunity to present some more
unsubtantiated propaganda.  Won't happen again.

Frank, I posted three claims: price of E85, fuel efficiency, and smog
potential.

The first two are direct personal observations.

(The price information is readily available country-wide on the web.
Just Google "E85 price." The fuel efficiency is also testified to
widely on the web.)

That leaves the smog potential: The article you cited mentioned smog
potential because alcohol evaporates faster than gasoline. (My reply
was about exhaust; forgive me.)

You must be driving an antique car; otherwise you would know that your
potential for any fuel evaporation is nil because your fuel system is
sealed and your gas cap should be on tight. That is general
knowledge.

I have no financial interest in ethanol production. I'm just a
retired physics professor interested in the energy problem we all face
in coming decades.

Ben

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

Hi,

I don't know about other States' emissions procedures, but here's a
"thought" from California:

As some of you already know, we've got the strictest emissions laws in
the US, and simple EPA certification is not always sufficient to pass.
Many of you US drivers/owners know about the "California" and "49 State"
cars...

Er... 49 , my butt! <G>

Many northeastern US states have true California emmisions standards
these days.