Used Audi AllRoad -vs- New Subaru

[Al]

Someone in the neighborhood is selling a 2000 Audi AllRoad. It retailed
for $47K US. It has about 80K miles on it and looks cherry. The info on
the side window says it has been carefully maintained and detailed. Most
of the miles are highway. It's a 2.8TT. He wants $21K for it; that's the
blue book price.

Now is it worth it compared to a a new Subaru? I'm on my second Subaru
so I'm somewhat satisfied with them. But I keep drooling about the Audi.

It's been sitting in the driveway for a month now and hasn't sold. Is
there something I should know about it? Are the twin turbos ready to go?
Are the boots almost shot?

Comments please?

Al

 

[Dom]

Al,
I will tell you this about Audi. Its the luxury division of
Volkswagon.
Both over the past few years have not been known for their reliability
- especially after the warranty run out! (I know...I had one!).
I think I would rather take that 21 grand get a new Suby.
My 2003 Forester has been excellent. My 2001 VW Passat GLX (loaded)
was an electrical and service nightmare (hence the reason I only kept
it 2 years and for 40,000 miles).

I too - love the Allroad. I especially like the look of it. But I
would never buy one - especially after owning my Subaru. Twice as
much as a Subaru for cost and maintenance and half as good in terms of
overall reliability.

Stick to what you know to be reliable. If you have to have a luxury
car, get a loaded Legacy.
The new ones are really nice!

Dom

 

[KLS]

I too - love the Allroad. I especially like the look of it. But I
would never buy one - especially after owning my Subaru. Twice as
much as a Subaru for cost and maintenance and half as good in terms of
overall reliability.

Stick to what you know to be reliable. If you have to have a luxury
car, get a loaded Legacy.

These are all good points with which I totally agree, but as an Audi
A4 and Subaru Legacy owner, I feel I can say with authority that the
driving experience in the Audi far surpasses the Subaru and always
will. This is really the only area that Audi is clearly superior
(aside from the nicer fit and finish interior), so if driving
experience is not a big deal for you, go for the Subaru. But if you
love to drive with a smile on your face every time you get in the car,
try the Audi. They go a long time with good maintenance and are
wonderful cars.

 

[Nige]

These are all good points with which I totally agree, but as an Audi
A4 and Subaru Legacy owner, I feel I can say with authority that the
driving experience in the Audi far surpasses the Subaru and always
will. This is really the only area that Audi is clearly superior
(aside from the nicer fit and finish interior), so if driving
experience is not a big deal for you, go for the Subaru. But if you
love to drive with a smile on your face every time you get in the car,
try the Audi. They go a long time with good maintenance and are
wonderful cars.ne

As an owner of a Subaru WRX & an Audi A4 convertible I can tell you the driving experience of the WRX
blows the Audi away. Thye Audi has had problems, not all of which are fixed yet. The Subaru has done the
same miles (15K) in 7 monthys as apposed to the wifes Audi took 2 years to gett there & I have not had
one problem with the Subaru.

The Subaru wins on all counts (apart from the roof doesnt come down!!)

Mind you, Imy toy is a 21 year old Land Rover & I prefer that to both of them anyhow!!

Nige

--
Subaru WRX (Annabel)

Landrover 110 County Station Wagon (Tyson)

'"They called him Jimmy the gent"

 

[Rick Courtright]

Now is it worth it compared to a a new Subaru? I'm on my second Subaru
so I'm somewhat satisfied with them. But I keep drooling about the Audi.

It's been sitting in the driveway for a month now and hasn't sold. Is

Hi,

Let me ask you some questions, and maybe you can use the answers to help
in your "quest":

Why is the owner selling a car w/ only 80k miles?

Is the Audi owner replacing the car w/ another Audi?

How many Audi owners do you know who buy a second one, vs the number of
Subaru owners?

Why is the car still on the driveway after a month? How many Subarus do
you see wearing "For Sale" signs that long?

What's "new w/ a warranty on a reputably reliable car" worth vs "used w/
no warranty on a car that's reputably unreliable" (especially since it's
got about 3/4 of the miles many such cars seem to get before they become
money pits?) worth to you?

Will you still have a smile on your face from "the driving experience"
if you're sitting beside the road waiting for a tow truck?

Just some thoughts...

Rick

 

[Dom]

Rick,

You quoted:
"Will you still have a smile on your face from "the driving experience"

if you're sitting beside the road waiting for a tow truck?".

I will add - or sitting in a repair shop every month or so for
something that is broken.

I loved driving my loaded passat! It was an AWESOME car to drive. But
somehow, all the problems I had took much of that joy away. I didn't
even have to pay for most of the repairs because they were covered
under warranty! Its the aggravation of all the troubles, the back and
forth to the dealer for the unresolved issues and intermittant
problems, and having to take time off from work to deal with these
problems that robbed me of the full pleasure experience.

Your statement above sums my experience up very well.
If VW/Audi could get their act together from a reliability and service
standpoint, the ownership experience has the potentinal to be
"outstanding". They need alot of work in those areas (sadly).

 

[Al]

Why is the owner selling a car w/ only 80k miles?

The car is owned by a company that provides video equipment and services
to production companies. They use cars like this one for VIPs. That's
why it's detailed so often. I imagine it's not "new enough" for the big
shots.

Is the Audi owner replacing the car w/ another Audi?

That I can't tell.

How many Audi owners do you know who buy a second one, vs the number of
Subaru owners?

I'll tell, my first Subaru was a dog. It standed my wife many times. It
was one of the first Outbacks; teething problems I assumed. The second
one has been OK so far. Wouldn't start one cold morning because the
engine was flooded. Had to use the old Jeep ('71) instead.

Why is the car still on the driveway after a month? How many Subarus do
you see wearing "For Sale" signs that long?

Actually it's a very low walking traffic area. I see it every day as I
walk by it for my morning walk. As it is a company car, I don't think
that the sale is high on their priority list. If I can talk them down to
$11K or so, I'll buy it. Maybe they will be willing to part for it for
way below book.

What's "new w/ a warranty on a reputably reliable car" worth vs "used w/
no warranty on a car that's reputably unreliable" (especially since it's
got about 3/4 of the miles many such cars seem to get before they become
money pits?) worth to you?

My first Subaru was a pain in the butt despite the warranty. I want a
reliable car, warranty or not.

Will you still have a smile on your face from "the driving experience"
if you're sitting beside the road waiting for a tow truck?

From my looking around on the 'net, I've found that people either love
or hate 'em. I think it's related to whether or not your particular car
is a dog.

My son had a VW with the V6. He always had trouble with it. He now has a
Mazda 6 and loves it.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Al

 

[BrianW]

If you were comparing the previous (second) generation Outbacks to the
AllRoad, I'd say the AllRoad is a much nicer car (I've owned two OBWs,
by the way). But the 2005 Outback is, in my opinion, pretty much on par
with the Audi. They've really improved it a lot (especially if you get
one of the better engines or the XT model). I rented one for a week in
Arizona and really liked it. We just paid off our 2003 OBW this month,
and are thinking about trading up to a 2005.

 

[Eza Gadson]

We needed a new wagon for the family (replacing an MB 300TE 4matic) and it
came down to the Allroad and the Outback 3.0 VDC, both new.

The Subaru was very nice and quite tempting at the price, but it was just a
little too rough around the edges still, not quite luxurious enough and not
quite there in ride comfort and build solidity. We went with the Audi even
though we expect it to be less reliable. Given the price difference it was
still a close call. If the Subie had had MB type cargo capacity, we would
have gone with it.

I'm now kicking back and forth between the sti and the S4. The S4 is MUCH
nicer, but the sti is much faster and more fun to drive, and of course, much
cheaper. Tough one.

I wish Subaru would keep performance the same and kick the luxury/build
quality element up a notch. It's Ok to charge me for it. I'd pay $40,000
for an sti with VW (not even Audi) build/interior quality in a minute.

 

[H]

You need help if you consider VW / Audi as superior build quality. VW, MB,
Porche etal have a "quality feel" about them, granted. Maybe the snob euro
appeal is there for you. Maybe you like all the unproven gimmicky extras in
these german cars, whatever. But build quality for them is initial and not
much more. I think of VW, Audi, MB in the same realm as Jaguar and
LandRover.

 

[Bonehenge]

I think of VW, Audi, MB in the same realm as Jaguar and
LandRover.

Think some more.

In a recent JD Power reliability study, a Jaguar was #2, a Mercedes
was #6. VW and Audi were one up from last, but the A4 is actually a
Consumer Reports "recommended model".

From <http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/2005/05/19.html#jdpower>

"J.D. Power's most and least reliable cars
Do you have to spend a fortune to get a reliable car these days? What
makes a car reliable after all? Well, J.D. Power & Associates is a
research organization that does a well-known automobile survey
involving the initial reliability of cars. The annual survey gets more
publicity of any other car survey. And for five years, the same
company has ranked No. 1. Lexus has been rated the best, most reliable
car in the U.S. for five years running, according to the survey. The
real shocker is which car maker ranks No. 2 - Jaguar. Clark happens to
have two Jaguars, so it makes him somewhat happy about spending so
much money on them. The rest of the list includes 3) BMW; 4) Buick; 5)
Buick; 6) Mercedes and 7) Toyota. So, who is the worst? The least
reliable car in the country is Suzuki. There was a tie for next to
last between Mazda and Land Rover. Volkswagen and Porsche were just
above those two. So, you don’t have to have an ultra luxury car to
have a reliable one."

 

[Eza Gadson]

As I said, I know that VW & Audi won't be as reliable, but unfortunately I'm
just a bit too old these days for hoods that I have to prop up using the
stalk, hood scoops that shake and shimmer at 70mph, center consoles with a
lower level of plastic quality than I tolerate in my 4 year old's toys, and
a trunk lid so thin that I'm afraid to close it over a couple of tightly
packed golf bags for fear that it will dent. All that stuff reminds me of
the seventies, and of the cheap 70s at that.

When I traded in my 12 year old MB for the Audi, it was certainly as
expensive to run as a Nautor Swan, but it still looked and felt as solid as
it was when new, after years of lugging around stereo equipment, skis,
bikes, furniture, Weimaraners, and kids. I feel reasonably confident that
the Audi will live through two thirds of that and still look nice n' feel
comfy. The same couldn't be said of the Outback.

My 18 year old MB 190e 2.3-16 (a spiritual ancestor to the sti) is as sound
as a new WRX, runs like a top, and STILL has a tighter, higher quality
interior than a brand new sti. To be fair, it was a $40,000 car twenty
years ago, but it's modern M3 & S4 equivalents are so much better built I
would have thought that the sti & evo might be at least have caught up to
the "initial" quality of a twenty year old MB 190.

I am definitely not looking for the same level of comfort and utility in my
daily commuter that I expect from the family wagon, nor the same level of
"initial" quality and solidity that I would expect in a $50,000+ Audi S4.
What I want is the modern version of the old Saab 900 turbo from the
eighties, a fast, fun, innovative, safe, well built car that isn't
ludicrously expensive overkill in any arena but the performance.

If only the sti had better "initial" build quality. Alas, we can't always
get what we want.

P.S. I haven't even considered any of the new Mercedes b/c they have lost
the mantle of their heritage and descended into true crap (and expensive
crap at that).

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I think MB has recovered somewhat from the 90s though. maybe I'm wrong.
What else is out there that you like? Mini-Cooper with the s'charger?
Honda 2000? Mitsusquishy EVO? what ARE the fun cars nowadays?

Carl

 

[Eza Gadson]

I really did think the w212 E-class would be a significant improvement and
prove a sufficient replacement for our old W124 until I had a chance to
examine a few up close in my old work parking garage. Horrendous shut lines
and panel fit along with a step backwards from the w211 in interior trim
quality changed my mind.

Choices are limited. I need an everyday car in which I can do a northeast
commute that has room for two child seats in a pinch and into which I can
cram two sets of golf clubs (or maybe just one). I would prefer AWD and I
obviously want something fast and fun too, and am willing to sacrifice some
ride comfort.
That leaves:
Evo - same problem as the sti but even worse / Mitsu bankrupt soon
R32 - not significantly better than current whip / no golf clubs
M3 - no AWD / pricey
C55 - no AWD / a Benz / pricey
S60R - a wooden nickel
X-Type - a balsa wood nickel
Mini CR - need more space / would like more performance & AWD
S4 - a contender but slow and a bit staid (next to the sti) for $50k

The perfect solution:
Audi A4 2.0t or Legacy GT & tuned Cayman S - at $95k +garage bay, too pricey

The perfect 1 car solution:
Audi B7 RS4 - long time coming / to pricey at $75k

That's why the the Scooby is so attractive. It's got the performance to
better anything on the list for $33k. Again, it would be perfect if it were
nicer and $40k. They'd sell a million. It'd be the new 99/900 turbo.
Heck, call it a Saab 100 turbo and go after the BMW/Audi crowd, I don't
care. I, for one, am just waiting to give up my hard earned money for that
car.

Are you listening GM/Subaru/Saab? Either truly upscale the Subarus or stop
trying to turn Saab into your women's brand and get back to its roots
(remember the 96's rally success). Please, I'm almost begging now.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

What about Infiniti? (I guess you'd have to give up the AWD and they may
be in almost as much financial trouble as Mitsu I guess)

tough one!
good luck!

Carl

 

[Rick Courtright]

quality element up a notch. It's Ok to charge me for it. I'd pay $40,000
for an sti with VW (not even Audi) build/interior quality in a minute.

Hi,

As a FORMER (and probably never again) VW and Porsche owner, might I
suggest you seek professional help?

If what you want are 75-100k mile cars, I suppose the Germans don't do
too badly. But they've yet to overcome "the myth of German engineering,"
that being that using 20 bolts to do the job of 4 is and loading a car
up with gizmoes that may or may not work is "sophisticated engineering."
But people still buy into it. Go figure...
Perhaps I have a different definition of "build quality." Mine hinges on
how well the car's still doing (and what it's cost to get there) at
150k, 200k, even 250k miles--in part, at least, because I view a car as
a "tool" and a "necessary evil" before calling it a status symbol or a
luxury item. My Subie's got 360k--can't think of anyone w/ a German car
who could AFFORD (or want) to keep one of the Fatherland's finest going
that long (other than those few characters who buy M-B diesels. But I'd
hardly call something a "luxury" vehicle if it's used mainly as a taxi
elsewhere, IMO.)

The choice belongs to the buyer, but I know which side of which ocean is
likely to get my repeat business today.

Rick

 

[Rick Courtright]

trying to turn Saab into your women's brand and get back to its roots
(remember the 96's rally success). Please, I'm almost begging now.

Talk about ancient history! You're thinking of the weird little critter
that spent most of its production life being rowed around w/ a four "on
the tree" shifter hooked up behind a 3 cyl, two stroke engine before it
was "supersized" w/ a V-4? Saab's come a ways since that time, but still
GM may be doing Saab a service by trying to find some kind of market for
their cars and keeping the brand alive at all... I don't think they're
selling many jets these days, are they?

BTW, for those young enough NOT to remember the 96, there are a few nice
pix of some of the cuter little trolls from Trollhattan at
http://www.vsaab.com/Thor/thor_index.html

But if we really want to get "back to our roots" we need to remember
when Subaru was "inexpensive and built to stay that way!" Not a wannabe
yuppie mobile. And I shouldn't think Subaru needs to worry about
"initial build quality" of the Sti, since the market for that car's
primarily those who want the closest thing to a street legal factory
racer they can get out of the box--a ricer you can drive every day.
Judging by the WRXes and Stis I see around SoCal, most will probably be
thrashed, crashed or totally rehashed long before anyone worries about
build quality!

Rick

 

[Eza Gadson]

Granted. But I have absolutely NO intention of keeping this next whip for
250k, 200k, or even 150k. 200k+ mileage is something I only expected (and
got) out of my old MB diesels. And though I've had a couple of Japanese
cars that were fully capable of making that mileage with even less $$$ spent
in maintenance than the old MBs, I never wanted to keep them for that long
as they were far to crappy to desire like I still pine after my old 1974
240D.

 

[Eza Gadson]

Oh my! Great 96 website! I really appreciate it, even though you and it are
making me feel like I'm older than dirt itself. For the record the 95s (the
wagons) and 96s are the cars I grew up in when I was wee lad. I actually
remember bugging my dad about something when he had me strapped into the
front seat of our second 95 coasting downhill (pre-child seats) and him
saying,

"Hush Eza, the President's resigning. Listen to this, it's important."

It was Nixon, and I'm now officially admitting in public for all to see that
I'm an old fat bastard.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

You seem able to spend a goodly amount of money, had you considered 2
vehicles? A fun car and a practical car?

Carl