ON Topic: 88 Supra overheating...

  • Thread starter Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
  • Start date
Boy, you two are just FULL of wonderful news!

The car has been sitting since Thursday. I have a very small garage so I'm
looking to see if a friend of mine has a space I can use. How long can I
wait before ripping it apart?

Once I get it apart, is there any suggested limit where I need to get it
back together by? I understand "ASAP" is the best, but...
I'd get it apart within 2 weeks - and if you clean up and lightly
grease or oil the block deck surface (as well as the cyls) you can
take your time about putting it back together. Make sure you get the
surface PERFECTLY clean.

Get ALL of the antifreeze out of the cyls and put ATF around the
rings.Wipe down the cyl walls with a clean oiled rag (I usually use
ATF for this too) Cover the engine with a good clean cloth to keep
dirt out.
 
I'd get it apart within 2 weeks - and if you clean up and lightly grease
or oil the block deck surface (as well as the cyls) you can take your time
about putting it back together. Make sure you get the surface PERFECTLY
clean.

Get ALL of the antifreeze out of the cyls and put ATF around the
rings.Wipe down the cyl walls with a clean oiled rag (I usually use ATF
for this too) Cover the engine with a good clean cloth to keep dirt out.

Thanks. I have to see about getting a space to work. I have a very SMALL
garage, and while I did the plugs there it was a somewhat tight fit. The
garage my guitar player works at is ~22 miles away, so I think maybe the
car might "break down" somewhere within 3 miles of home and AAA will have
to tow it to the shop...
 
In alt.autos.toyota Hachiroku ???? said:
Boy, you two are just FULL of wonderful news!

The car has been sitting since Thursday. I have a very small garage so I'm
looking to see if a friend of mine has a space I can use. How long can I
wait before ripping it apart?

Not sure what that means, but why wait?
Once I get it apart, is there any suggested limit where I need to get it
back together by? I understand "ASAP" is the best, but...

As long as you take care of covering up the block, you can leave the engine
open as long as needed. Like if you want to get the head planed.
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In alt.autos.toyota Hachiroku ???? said:
Thanks. I have to see about getting a space to work. I have a very SMALL
garage, and while I did the plugs there it was a somewhat tight fit. The
garage my guitar player works at is ~22 miles away, so I think maybe the
car might "break down" somewhere within 3 miles of home and AAA will have
to tow it to the shop...


Gee, that'd be a shame if it broke down and they had to tow it for free.
--
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I'd get it apart within 2 weeks - and if you clean up and lightly grease
or oil the block deck surface (as well as the cyls) you can take your time
about putting it back together. Make sure you get the surface PERFECTLY
clean.

Get ALL of the antifreeze out of the cyls and put ATF around the
rings.Wipe down the cyl walls with a clean oiled rag (I usually use ATF
for this too) Cover the engine with a good clean cloth to keep dirt out.

OK, you thoroughly got me running scared now...

I have the new radiator in, and ordered a Genuine cap and t-stat from
Toyota. The radiator is full, but I have as yet not started the car to
circulate coolant. What should I do? Should I try starting it at all, or
just, as you say, "PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD", period?
 
In alt.autos.toyota Hachiroku ???? said:
OK, you thoroughly got me running scared now...

I have the new radiator in, and ordered a Genuine cap and t-stat from
Toyota. The radiator is full, but I have as yet not started the car to
circulate coolant. What should I do? Should I try starting it at all, or
just, as you say, "PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD", period?

Use your little garage, do a compression test. Likely, Cyl 6 is lower
than the rest. (That's usually where those go, back by the upper coolant
tube. Just to close to the jacket there.

If all pressure is fine, drive it till it pukes. If one or two are way
low or if all are fairly low, replace or repair.
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OK, you thoroughly got me running scared now...

I have the new radiator in, and ordered a Genuine cap and t-stat from
Toyota. The radiator is full, but I have as yet not started the car to
circulate coolant. What should I do? Should I try starting it at all, or
just, as you say, "PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD", period?
Don't take a chance on doing more damage.
 
NEVER use de-ionized water in a cooling system. Distilled is great -

ok dude, i love a lot of your contributions, but that one is pure
bullshit. and if you're confused about "de-ionized" being a misnomer
for the product of a water softener, you still have an understanding
problem. de-ionized is the product of reverse osmosis and while not
perfectly pure, is pretty danged close. certainly close enough as to be
indistinguishable for this application.

and most tap water is acceptable. Virtually every dealership in the
country uses tap water.

yet another reason to do it yourself. dealers should know better - if
they bother to read their manufacturer service bulletins anyway.

The garage when it is installed by a garage.

show me one garage that's ever had the chemistry equipment to buffer an
antifreeze solution. just one.

I have never had the pH
come out where it belongs with a 50% mix of antifreeze and ANY water.

what pH is that supposed to be then???

Many times it's been close, but USUALLY the pH is too high.

meaning what? put numbers to it.

A false negative on many cars will cause engine damage before you
realize you have a problem.

you don't get "false negatives" with this test. and stop wriggling -
you were bleating about the cost of a false positive.

ONE OUNCE of glycol in the crankcase of a
Ford 3.8 can trash the bearings.

again, stop wriggling. coolant in the lube is a whole different issue.
we was talking about exhaust leaking directly into the coolant.
like on an open deck honda.

I've been a mechanic since 1969 - and I've seen more engines leak
coolant only when cold than only when hot.

like i said, you're only getting to see late stage, not early. i don't
disregard your experience - although i'm not /that/ far behind you - but
i've bothered to study beyond the simple "obvious" cases, and as i said
before, early stage can be very non-obvious.

The only reason you see it
more when hot is because when hot the system is under pressure.

no, it's because of thermal distortion. the "pressure", i.e.
pressurized coolant as it warms, works /against/ gas leakage, it doesn't
assist it.

Pressurize the cold system and generally it leaks more, and sooner,
than when hot.

nope. see above.

It is done ALL THE TIME.

if you think that's what you're seeing, you don't understand what you're
looking at. you cannot filter a solute from a solution - by definition.

The coolant is filtered and a buffering agent
is added to bring the pH back to spec.

what is this "buffering agent" clare? and which way does it buffer?
serious question.

Up here it's generally $14 per gallon. to the man on the street.

so, it's $14 for an accurate diagnosis. [to the man in the street, not
the dealer.] hardly a serious consideration when looking at whether to
drop a grand on a gasket job wouldn't you say? not if you're being
rational anyway.

Recycling the coolant is the responsible thing to do - as well as the
economical thing to do.

that might be something available to those working in large shops, but
not the man on the street. besides, the "environmental hazard" is
primarily to biosystems like dogs who like the sweet taste. while more
so, its toxicity is not unlike that of alcohol. mmm.

When an engine warms up, the parts expand and the clearances decrease,
causing many minor coolant leaks, both internal and external, to
temporarily stop with the engine at operating temperatures.

not head gaskets - other way around. restricted linear expansion causes
them to bow in the middle - hence warping. that's why it's usually the
middle pistons where the leakage is evident. and if you can see
bubbling when cold, the gasket is already pretty far gone. [maybe your
experience is skewed - most shops only get to see late stage leakage
since owners usually never notice early and thus never take their
vehicles in.]

My experience may well be skewed a bit, because I've wrenched
professionally for many years. (with many of those years on Toyotas)
Many head gasket leaks have absolutely nothing to do with restricted
linear expansion and bowing, and everything to do with gasket material
failure, corrosion, head bolt torque, and many other causes.

again, you're confused. the results of leakage, like corrosion and
erosion are not causes. and incorrect bolt torque, or even bolt failure
[remember bmw?] is a whole different issue again.

classic overheat, like when an old radiator is clogged or a thermostat
fails, causes the head to bow. if you don't believe that, you need to
study this topic some more - and bother to look into [and think about]
why it's the middle pistons where the gasket fails.

On the "M" engine, in particular, early head gasket failures were
attributed to shearing of the gasket because of the large differential
in expansion rates between the aluminum head and the cast head.

which actually accords with what i was saying - if you bothered to think
about it and weren't so intent on simply trying to argue a contrary
position.

Toyota
got that problem pretty well sorted out by the time the 4M engine was
introduced. Most of the 3M engines were also good - but the 2M (Early
Crown ) engines had a significant head gasket problem.
From 4M on up, the ONLY head gasket failures I ever saw were due to
uverheating from blown hoses, leaky rads, and sticking aftermarker
thermostats.

see above.
 
ok dude, i love a lot of your contributions, but that one is pure
bullshit. and if you're confused about "de-ionized" being a misnomer
for the product of a water softener, you still have an understanding
problem. de-ionized is the product of reverse osmosis and while not
perfectly pure, is pretty danged close. certainly close enough as to be
indistinguishable for this application.

You are full of it. Reverse osmosis water is NOT de-ionized water.
de-ionized water is an almost universal solvent, in that it will grab
ions from anything it contacts - causing rapid deterioration of
things like aluminum radiators.
yet another reason to do it yourself. dealers should know better - if
they bother to read their manufacturer service bulletins anyway.

Their service buletins will warn specifically AGAINST de-ionized
water. Soft water is definitely better than hard (naturally soft, not
softened) and distilled is definitely OK - but you want ionically
balanced water of neutral pH for cooling systems.

Tap water sourced from surface water is just fine. Water from deep
wells is suspect - usually too alkaline, and too high in TDS (Total
disolved solids) - which will scale up the cooling system.
 
You are full of it. Reverse osmosis water is NOT de-ionized water.
de-ionized water is an almost universal solvent, in that it will grab
ions from anything it contacts - causing rapid deterioration of
things like aluminum radiators.

clare, sorry dude - but you're fundamentally misinformed on that. the
difference between de-ionized is practically zero, and for radiator
purposes /is/ zero. if you have experience of "de-ionized" causing
problems, it wasn't de-ionized, it was softened, a whole different
animal and that indeed can be corrosive.

Their service buletins will warn specifically AGAINST de-ionized
water. Soft water is definitely better than hard (naturally soft, not
softened) and distilled is definitely OK - but you want ionically
balanced water of neutral pH for cooling systems.

utter bullshit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionized_water

unless you think that hydroxide and hydronium ions are a problem.

Tap water sourced from surface water is just fine. Water from deep
wells is suspect - usually too alkaline, and too high in TDS (Total
disolved solids) - which will scale up the cooling system.

more bullshit. "surface water" has a multitude of chemistries. and
well water can be fine - it all depends on substrate. you're WAY out of
your depth on this one.
 
clare, sorry dude - but you're fundamentally misinformed on that. the
difference between de-ionized is practically zero, and for radiator
purposes /is/ zero. if you have experience of "de-ionized" causing
problems, it wasn't de-ionized, it was softened, a whole different
animal and that indeed can be corrosive.
Deionization

The process used for removal of all dissolved salts from water is
referred to as deionization. Deionization requires the flow of water
through two ion exchange materials in order to effect the removal of
all salt content.

Deionization. The terms demineralization and deionization are used
somewhat interchangeably by the industry. While the term
demineralization is generally better understood, deionization is
especially apt.

The passage of water through the first exchange material removes the
calcium and magnesium ions just as in the normal softening process.
Unlike home equipment, deionization units also remove all other
positive metallic ions in the process and replace them with hydrogen
ions instead of sodium ions.

As the metallic ions in the water affix themselves to the exchange
material, the latter releases its hydrogen ions on a chemically
equivalent basis. A sodium ion (Na+) displaces one hydrogen ion (H+)
from the exchanger; a calcium ion (Ca++) displaces two hydrogen ions;
a ferric ion (Fe+++) displaces three hydrogen ions, etc. (Recall that
home softeners also release two sodium ions for every calcium or
magnesium ion they attract.)

This exchange of the hydrogen ions for metallic ions on an equivalent
basis is chemical necessity that permits the exchange material to
maintain a balance of electrical charges.

Now because of the relatively high concentration of hydrogen ions, the
solution is very acid.

At this point the deionization process is just half complete. While
the positive metallic ions have been removed, the water now contains
positive hydrogen ions, and the anions originally in the raw water.

The partially treated water now flows through a second unit, this time
an anion exchange material normally consists of replaceable hydroxyl
anions and fixed irreplaceable cations.

Now the negative ions in solution (the anions) are absorbed into the
anion exchange material. Released in their place are hydroxyl anions.

All that emerges from such a two unit system is ion-free water. It
still contains the positive hydrogen ions released in the initial
exchange plus the negative hydroxyl ions released in the second
exchange.

What has become of these two ions? Through the magic of chemistry they
have combined (positive to negative) to produce water molecules which
are in no way different from the water in which they were produced.

The result of this two-stage ion exchange process is water that is
mineral-free.

Equipment for use in the deionization process may be of several types.
Available are both multiple bed and single bed units. Multiple bed
units have pairs of tanks, one for the cation exchanger, the other for
the anion exchanger. Single bed units incorporate both the cation and
anion exchangers, mixed in a single tank.

Deionized water has a wide range of uses in industry. Chemical
production, pharmaceuticals, electroplating, television tube
production and leather goods processing are among the many diversified
applications for deionized water.

Reverse Osmosis

Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of removing 90% to
99% of all contaminants. The pore structure of RO membranes is much
tighter than UF membranes. RO membranes are capable of rejecting
practically all particles, bacteria and organics >300 daltons
molecular weight (including pyrogens). In fact, reverse osmosis
technology is used by most leading water bottling plants.

Natural osmosis occurs when solutions with two different
concentrations are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. Osmotic
pressure drives water through the membrane; the water dilutes the more
concentrated solution; and the end result is an equilibrium.

In water purification systems, hydraulic pressure is applied to the
concentrated solution to counteract the osmotic pressure. Pure water
is driven from the concentrated solution and collected downstream of
the membrane.

Because RO membranes are very restrictive, they yield slow flow rates.
Storage tanks are required to produce an adequate volume in a
reasonable amount of time.

RO also involves an ionic exclusion process. Only solvent is allowed
to pass through the semi-permeable RO membrane, while virtually all
ions and dissolved molecules are retained (including salts and
sugars). The semi-permeable membrane rejects salts (ions) by a charge
phenomena action: the greater the charge, the greater the rejection.
Therefore, the membrane rejects nearly all (>99%) strongly ionized
polyvalent ions but only 95% of the weakly ionized monovalent ions
like sodium.

Reverse osmosis is highly effective in removing several impurities
from water such as total dissolved solids (TDS), turbidity, asbestos,
lead and other toxic heavy metals, radium, and many dissolved
organics. The process will also remove chlorinated pesticides and most
heavier-weight VOCs. Reverse osmosis and activated carbon filtration
are complementary processes. Combining them results in the most
effective treatment against the broadest range of water impurities and
contaminants.

RO is the most economical and efficient method for purifying tap water
if the system is properly designed for the feed water conditions and
the intended use of the product water. RO is also the optimum
pretreatment for reagent-grade water polishing systems

_Water Purification Text____________________________________________

According to tis, there is a 5% difference in removal rates of
monovalent ions like sodium, and only a 1% difference in covalent
ions.

_CS____________________________________________________________

Deionized water goes through basically the same process as softened
water - ionic exchange - but substitutes hydrogen ions instead of
sodium ions. The positive and negative hydrogen ions combine to
produce pure water, so they are taken intirely out of the equation.

Deionized water is neutral in pH (7) but very quickly becomes acidic
as it has a strong afinity for CO2 from the air, forming carbonic
acid.

Reverse osmosis water is very similar in this regard but has
somebuffering capacity due to the presence of a low level of
monovalent ions.


Distilled water has a less agressive affinity for CO2, as well as
having a varying buffering capability due to the presence of SOME
monovalent and co-valent ons, so does not acidify quite as quickly.

Both reverse Osmosis and deionized water are considered to be
"agressive" - but in a chemically different way than "hard" or highly
mineralized water.
_CS______________________________________________________________

From the Work Health Organization guides for drinking water quality:

Demineralised water is highly aggressive and if untreated, its
distribution
through pipes and storage tanks would not be possible. The aggressive
water attacks the water distribution piping and leaches metals and
other
materials from the pipes and associated plumbing materials.
_WHO_____________________________________________________________
 
Deionization

The process used for removal of all dissolved salts from water is
referred to as deionization. Deionization requires the flow of water
through two ion exchange materials in order to effect the removal of
all salt content.

Deionization. The terms demineralization and deionization are used
somewhat interchangeably by the industry. While the term
demineralization is generally better understood, deionization is
especially apt.

The passage of water through the first exchange material removes the
calcium and magnesium ions just as in the normal softening process.
Unlike home equipment, deionization units also remove all other
positive metallic ions in the process and replace them with hydrogen
ions instead of sodium ions.

As the metallic ions in the water affix themselves to the exchange
material, the latter releases its hydrogen ions on a chemically
equivalent basis. A sodium ion (Na+) displaces one hydrogen ion (H+)
from the exchanger; a calcium ion (Ca++) displaces two hydrogen ions;
a ferric ion (Fe+++) displaces three hydrogen ions, etc. (Recall that
home softeners also release two sodium ions for every calcium or
magnesium ion they attract.)

This exchange of the hydrogen ions for metallic ions on an equivalent
basis is chemical necessity that permits the exchange material to
maintain a balance of electrical charges.

Now because of the relatively high concentration of hydrogen ions, the
solution is very acid.

At this point the deionization process is just half complete. While
the positive metallic ions have been removed, the water now contains
positive hydrogen ions, and the anions originally in the raw water.

The partially treated water now flows through a second unit, this time
an anion exchange material normally consists of replaceable hydroxyl
anions and fixed irreplaceable cations.

Now the negative ions in solution (the anions) are absorbed into the
anion exchange material. Released in their place are hydroxyl anions.

All that emerges from such a two unit system is ion-free water. It
still contains the positive hydrogen ions released in the initial
exchange plus the negative hydroxyl ions released in the second
exchange.

What has become of these two ions? Through the magic of chemistry they
have combined (positive to negative) to produce water molecules which
are in no way different from the water in which they were produced.

The result of this two-stage ion exchange process is water that is
mineral-free.

Equipment for use in the deionization process may be of several types.
Available are both multiple bed and single bed units. Multiple bed
units have pairs of tanks, one for the cation exchanger, the other for
the anion exchanger. Single bed units incorporate both the cation and
anion exchangers, mixed in a single tank.

Deionized water has a wide range of uses in industry. Chemical
production, pharmaceuticals, electroplating, television tube
production and leather goods processing are among the many diversified
applications for deionized water.

Reverse Osmosis

Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of removing 90% to
99% of all contaminants. The pore structure of RO membranes is much
tighter than UF membranes. RO membranes are capable of rejecting
practically all particles, bacteria and organics>300 daltons
molecular weight (including pyrogens). In fact, reverse osmosis
technology is used by most leading water bottling plants.

Natural osmosis occurs when solutions with two different
concentrations are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. Osmotic
pressure drives water through the membrane; the water dilutes the more
concentrated solution; and the end result is an equilibrium.

In water purification systems, hydraulic pressure is applied to the
concentrated solution to counteract the osmotic pressure. Pure water
is driven from the concentrated solution and collected downstream of
the membrane.

Because RO membranes are very restrictive, they yield slow flow rates.
Storage tanks are required to produce an adequate volume in a
reasonable amount of time.

RO also involves an ionic exclusion process. Only solvent is allowed
to pass through the semi-permeable RO membrane, while virtually all
ions and dissolved molecules are retained (including salts and
sugars). The semi-permeable membrane rejects salts (ions) by a charge
phenomena action: the greater the charge, the greater the rejection.
Therefore, the membrane rejects nearly all (>99%) strongly ionized
polyvalent ions but only 95% of the weakly ionized monovalent ions
like sodium.

Reverse osmosis is highly effective in removing several impurities
from water such as total dissolved solids (TDS), turbidity, asbestos,
lead and other toxic heavy metals, radium, and many dissolved
organics. The process will also remove chlorinated pesticides and most
heavier-weight VOCs. Reverse osmosis and activated carbon filtration
are complementary processes. Combining them results in the most
effective treatment against the broadest range of water impurities and
contaminants.

RO is the most economical and efficient method for purifying tap water
if the system is properly designed for the feed water conditions and
the intended use of the product water. RO is also the optimum
pretreatment for reagent-grade water polishing systems

_Water Purification Text____________________________________________

According to tis, there is a 5% difference in removal rates of
monovalent ions like sodium, and only a 1% difference in covalent
ions.

_CS____________________________________________________________

Deionized water goes through basically the same process as softened
water - ionic exchange - but substitutes hydrogen ions instead of
sodium ions.

i don't know where you found this little nugget, but it is incorrect.
[you should always cite your source.]


The positive and negative hydrogen ions combine to
produce pure water, so they are taken intirely out of the equation.

spoken like a true ignorant.

Deionized water is neutral in pH (7) but very quickly becomes acidic
as it has a strong afinity for CO2 from the air, forming carbonic
acid.

utter drivel.

Reverse osmosis water is very similar in this regard but has
somebuffering capacity due to the presence of a low level of
monovalent ions.


Distilled water has a less agressive affinity for CO2, as well as
having a varying buffering capability due to the presence of SOME
monovalent and co-valent ons, so does not acidify quite as quickly.

Both reverse Osmosis and deionized water are considered to be
"agressive" - but in a chemically different way than "hard" or highly
mineralized water.

outstanding! who wrote this crap?



_CS______________________________________________________________

From the Work Health Organization guides for drinking water quality:

Demineralised water is highly aggressive and if untreated, its
distribution
through pipes and storage tanks would not be possible. The aggressive
water attacks the water distribution piping and leaches metals and
other
materials from the pipes and associated plumbing materials.
_WHO_____________________________________________________________


you don't understand the science clare - as evidenced by the fact that
you're trying to defend the indefensible and digging up unattributed
bullshit written by others that don't understand. "de-ionized" has the
precursor "de" in it. not "re". ions are _removed_. the only
difference be de-ionized and distilled [to the order of ppb anyway] is
organics, which in radiator water don't matter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionized_water#Deionization
 
Deionization

The process used for removal of all dissolved salts from water is
referred to as deionization. Deionization requires the flow of water
through two ion exchange materials in order to effect the removal of
all salt content.

Deionization. The terms demineralization and deionization are used
somewhat interchangeably by the industry. While the term
demineralization is generally better understood, deionization is
especially apt.

The passage of water through the first exchange material removes the
calcium and magnesium ions just as in the normal softening process.
Unlike home equipment, deionization units also remove all other
positive metallic ions in the process and replace them with hydrogen
ions instead of sodium ions.

As the metallic ions in the water affix themselves to the exchange
material, the latter releases its hydrogen ions on a chemically
equivalent basis. A sodium ion (Na+) displaces one hydrogen ion (H+)
from the exchanger; a calcium ion (Ca++) displaces two hydrogen ions;
a ferric ion (Fe+++) displaces three hydrogen ions, etc. (Recall that
home softeners also release two sodium ions for every calcium or
magnesium ion they attract.)

This exchange of the hydrogen ions for metallic ions on an equivalent
basis is chemical necessity that permits the exchange material to
maintain a balance of electrical charges.

Now because of the relatively high concentration of hydrogen ions, the
solution is very acid.

At this point the deionization process is just half complete. While
the positive metallic ions have been removed, the water now contains
positive hydrogen ions, and the anions originally in the raw water.

The partially treated water now flows through a second unit, this time
an anion exchange material normally consists of replaceable hydroxyl
anions and fixed irreplaceable cations.

Now the negative ions in solution (the anions) are absorbed into the
anion exchange material. Released in their place are hydroxyl anions.

All that emerges from such a two unit system is ion-free water. It
still contains the positive hydrogen ions released in the initial
exchange plus the negative hydroxyl ions released in the second
exchange.

What has become of these two ions? Through the magic of chemistry they
have combined (positive to negative) to produce water molecules which
are in no way different from the water in which they were produced.

The result of this two-stage ion exchange process is water that is
mineral-free.

Equipment for use in the deionization process may be of several types.
Available are both multiple bed and single bed units. Multiple bed
units have pairs of tanks, one for the cation exchanger, the other for
the anion exchanger. Single bed units incorporate both the cation and
anion exchangers, mixed in a single tank.

Deionized water has a wide range of uses in industry. Chemical
production, pharmaceuticals, electroplating, television tube
production and leather goods processing are among the many diversified
applications for deionized water.

Reverse Osmosis

Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of removing 90% to
99% of all contaminants. The pore structure of RO membranes is much
tighter than UF membranes. RO membranes are capable of rejecting
practically all particles, bacteria and organics>300 daltons
molecular weight (including pyrogens). In fact, reverse osmosis
technology is used by most leading water bottling plants.

Natural osmosis occurs when solutions with two different
concentrations are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. Osmotic
pressure drives water through the membrane; the water dilutes the more
concentrated solution; and the end result is an equilibrium.

In water purification systems, hydraulic pressure is applied to the
concentrated solution to counteract the osmotic pressure. Pure water
is driven from the concentrated solution and collected downstream of
the membrane.

Because RO membranes are very restrictive, they yield slow flow rates.
Storage tanks are required to produce an adequate volume in a
reasonable amount of time.

RO also involves an ionic exclusion process. Only solvent is allowed
to pass through the semi-permeable RO membrane, while virtually all
ions and dissolved molecules are retained (including salts and
sugars). The semi-permeable membrane rejects salts (ions) by a charge
phenomena action: the greater the charge, the greater the rejection.
Therefore, the membrane rejects nearly all (>99%) strongly ionized
polyvalent ions but only 95% of the weakly ionized monovalent ions
like sodium.

Reverse osmosis is highly effective in removing several impurities
from water such as total dissolved solids (TDS), turbidity, asbestos,
lead and other toxic heavy metals, radium, and many dissolved
organics. The process will also remove chlorinated pesticides and most
heavier-weight VOCs. Reverse osmosis and activated carbon filtration
are complementary processes. Combining them results in the most
effective treatment against the broadest range of water impurities and
contaminants.

RO is the most economical and efficient method for purifying tap water
if the system is properly designed for the feed water conditions and
the intended use of the product water. RO is also the optimum
pretreatment for reagent-grade water polishing systems

_Water Purification Text____________________________________________

According to tis, there is a 5% difference in removal rates of
monovalent ions like sodium, and only a 1% difference in covalent
ions.

_CS____________________________________________________________

Deionized water goes through basically the same process as softened
water - ionic exchange - but substitutes hydrogen ions instead of
sodium ions.

i don't know where you found this little nugget, but it is incorrect.
[you should always cite your source.]

Did you read the description of how deionized water is made - the
process?? Obviously not you jackass. You're GONE. I won't waste any
more time trying to explain anything to you, or reading your drivel.
The positive and negative hydrogen ions combine to
produce pure water, so they are taken intirely out of the equation.

spoken like a true ignorant.

Deionized water is neutral in pH (7) but very quickly becomes acidic
as it has a strong afinity for CO2 from the air, forming carbonic
acid.

utter drivel.

Reverse osmosis water is very similar in this regard but has
somebuffering capacity due to the presence of a low level of
monovalent ions.


Distilled water has a less agressive affinity for CO2, as well as
having a varying buffering capability due to the presence of SOME
monovalent and co-valent ons, so does not acidify quite as quickly.

Both reverse Osmosis and deionized water are considered to be
"agressive" - but in a chemically different way than "hard" or highly
mineralized water.

outstanding! who wrote this crap?



_CS______________________________________________________________

From the Work Health Organization guides for drinking water quality:

Demineralised water is highly aggressive and if untreated, its
distribution
through pipes and storage tanks would not be possible. The aggressive
water attacks the water distribution piping and leaches metals and
other
materials from the pipes and associated plumbing materials.
_WHO_____________________________________________________________


you don't understand the science clare - as evidenced by the fact that
you're trying to defend the indefensible and digging up unattributed
bullshit written by others that don't understand. "de-ionized" has the
precursor "de" in it. not "re". ions are _removed_. the only
difference be de-ionized and distilled [to the order of ppb anyway] is
organics, which in radiator water don't matter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionized_water#Deionization
 
clare, sorry dude - but you're fundamentally misinformed on that. the
difference between de-ionized is practically zero, and for radiator
purposes /is/ zero. if you have experience of "de-ionized" causing
problems, it wasn't de-ionized, it was softened, a whole different
animal and that indeed can be corrosive.

Deionization

The process used for removal of all dissolved salts from water is
referred to as deionization. Deionization requires the flow of water
through two ion exchange materials in order to effect the removal of
all salt content.

Deionization. The terms demineralization and deionization are used
somewhat interchangeably by the industry. While the term
demineralization is generally better understood, deionization is
especially apt.

The passage of water through the first exchange material removes the
calcium and magnesium ions just as in the normal softening process.
Unlike home equipment, deionization units also remove all other
positive metallic ions in the process and replace them with hydrogen
ions instead of sodium ions.

As the metallic ions in the water affix themselves to the exchange
material, the latter releases its hydrogen ions on a chemically
equivalent basis. A sodium ion (Na+) displaces one hydrogen ion (H+)
from the exchanger; a calcium ion (Ca++) displaces two hydrogen ions;
a ferric ion (Fe+++) displaces three hydrogen ions, etc. (Recall that
home softeners also release two sodium ions for every calcium or
magnesium ion they attract.)

This exchange of the hydrogen ions for metallic ions on an equivalent
basis is chemical necessity that permits the exchange material to
maintain a balance of electrical charges.

Now because of the relatively high concentration of hydrogen ions, the
solution is very acid.

At this point the deionization process is just half complete. While
the positive metallic ions have been removed, the water now contains
positive hydrogen ions, and the anions originally in the raw water.

The partially treated water now flows through a second unit, this time
an anion exchange material normally consists of replaceable hydroxyl
anions and fixed irreplaceable cations.

Now the negative ions in solution (the anions) are absorbed into the
anion exchange material. Released in their place are hydroxyl anions.

All that emerges from such a two unit system is ion-free water. It
still contains the positive hydrogen ions released in the initial
exchange plus the negative hydroxyl ions released in the second
exchange.

What has become of these two ions? Through the magic of chemistry they
have combined (positive to negative) to produce water molecules which
are in no way different from the water in which they were produced.

The result of this two-stage ion exchange process is water that is
mineral-free.

Equipment for use in the deionization process may be of several types.
Available are both multiple bed and single bed units. Multiple bed
units have pairs of tanks, one for the cation exchanger, the other for
the anion exchanger. Single bed units incorporate both the cation and
anion exchangers, mixed in a single tank.

Deionized water has a wide range of uses in industry. Chemical
production, pharmaceuticals, electroplating, television tube
production and leather goods processing are among the many diversified
applications for deionized water.

Reverse Osmosis

Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of removing 90% to
99% of all contaminants. The pore structure of RO membranes is much
tighter than UF membranes. RO membranes are capable of rejecting
practically all particles, bacteria and organics>300 daltons
molecular weight (including pyrogens). In fact, reverse osmosis
technology is used by most leading water bottling plants.

Natural osmosis occurs when solutions with two different
concentrations are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. Osmotic
pressure drives water through the membrane; the water dilutes the more
concentrated solution; and the end result is an equilibrium.

In water purification systems, hydraulic pressure is applied to the
concentrated solution to counteract the osmotic pressure. Pure water
is driven from the concentrated solution and collected downstream of
the membrane.

Because RO membranes are very restrictive, they yield slow flow rates.
Storage tanks are required to produce an adequate volume in a
reasonable amount of time.

RO also involves an ionic exclusion process. Only solvent is allowed
to pass through the semi-permeable RO membrane, while virtually all
ions and dissolved molecules are retained (including salts and
sugars). The semi-permeable membrane rejects salts (ions) by a charge
phenomena action: the greater the charge, the greater the rejection.
Therefore, the membrane rejects nearly all (>99%) strongly ionized
polyvalent ions but only 95% of the weakly ionized monovalent ions
like sodium.

Reverse osmosis is highly effective in removing several impurities
from water such as total dissolved solids (TDS), turbidity, asbestos,
lead and other toxic heavy metals, radium, and many dissolved
organics. The process will also remove chlorinated pesticides and most
heavier-weight VOCs. Reverse osmosis and activated carbon filtration
are complementary processes. Combining them results in the most
effective treatment against the broadest range of water impurities and
contaminants.

RO is the most economical and efficient method for purifying tap water
if the system is properly designed for the feed water conditions and
the intended use of the product water. RO is also the optimum
pretreatment for reagent-grade water polishing systems

_Water Purification Text____________________________________________

According to tis, there is a 5% difference in removal rates of
monovalent ions like sodium, and only a 1% difference in covalent
ions.

_CS____________________________________________________________

Deionized water goes through basically the same process as softened
water - ionic exchange - but substitutes hydrogen ions instead of
sodium ions.

i don't know where you found this little nugget, but it is incorrect.
[you should always cite your source.]

Did you read the description of how deionized water is made - the
process??

er, i'm the one that first cited it to you. the one you cited because
you apparently didn't read mine was "confused" to say the least. i'm
sorry you're not taking the time to differentiate and understand.

Obviously not you jackass. You're GONE. I won't waste any
more time trying to explain anything to you, or reading your drivel.

no dude, there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. this is not
personal to you - and you're not the first to be victim of this kind of
thing. read some of the bullshit posted here:

http://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~maparker/classes/467-Chapters/Class04/drink no DI.htm

there is simplified explanation here:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00223.htm

note:

" If it is of the type used in homes, it is not truly a de-ionizer,
removing all
ions, but rather an ion exchange column that exchanges polyvalent ions such
as Mg++ and Ca++ for Na+ ions."

if you have negative experience with "de-ionized" clare, this is your
problem.

The positive and negative hydrogen ions combine to
produce pure water, so they are taken intirely out of the equation.

spoken like a true ignorant.

Deionized water is neutral in pH (7) but very quickly becomes acidic
as it has a strong afinity for CO2 from the air, forming carbonic
acid.

utter drivel.

Reverse osmosis water is very similar in this regard but has
somebuffering capacity due to the presence of a low level of
monovalent ions.


Distilled water has a less agressive affinity for CO2, as well as
having a varying buffering capability due to the presence of SOME
monovalent and co-valent ons, so does not acidify quite as quickly.

Both reverse Osmosis and deionized water are considered to be
"agressive" - but in a chemically different way than "hard" or highly
mineralized water.

outstanding! who wrote this crap?



_CS______________________________________________________________

From the Work Health Organization guides for drinking water quality:

Demineralised water is highly aggressive and if untreated, its
distribution
through pipes and storage tanks would not be possible. The aggressive
water attacks the water distribution piping and leaches metals and
other
materials from the pipes and associated plumbing materials.
_WHO_____________________________________________________________


you don't understand the science clare - as evidenced by the fact that
you're trying to defend the indefensible and digging up unattributed
bullshit written by others that don't understand. "de-ionized" has the
precursor "de" in it. not "re". ions are _removed_. the only
difference be de-ionized and distilled [to the order of ppb anyway] is
organics, which in radiator water don't matter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionized_water#Deionization
 

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