WRX Wagon Questions...

B

BRH

Considering the possible trade-up from a Forester to a new WRX Sport
Wagon, and have a few questions:

1. Does the WRX's Turbo require Premium fuel? (probably a dumb
question, but I wanted to make sure...)
2. What kind of gas mileage can really be expected?
3. How has the car been with regard to reliability?
4. I know that storage capacity doesn't quite measure up to a
Forester's, but is there really much difference in this regard? (Can it
hold 2 sets of golf clubs, for example)..

I'm happy with the Forester, but just considering soenthing more zippy
and fun, while still retaining some practicality.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Bert
 
Considering the possible trade-up from a Forester to a new WRX Sport
Wagon, and have a few questions:

1. Does the WRX's Turbo require Premium fuel? (probably a dumb
question, but I wanted to make sure...)
2. What kind of gas mileage can really be expected?
3. How has the car been with regard to reliability?
4. I know that storage capacity doesn't quite measure up to a
Forester's, but is there really much difference in this regard? (Can
it hold 2 sets of golf clubs, for example)..

I'm happy with the Forester, but just considering soenthing more zippy
and fun, while still retaining some practicality.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Bert

1. Yes, premium is mandatory.
2. I normally get 23-24 MPG driving 75/25 highway/city. If I granny-drive,
I can get to 27-28 MPG.
3. With the exclusion of the fuel line leak (specific to early '02s, fixed
under TSB), 78K miles with no problems.
4. 2 sets of clubs will be no problem. With all the seats down (including
passenger), I can get 8 foot lumber (2 by X) into the car and close the
hatch.

That said, if you like your Forester and simply want more zip, look into a
Forester XT (2.5 turbo). It's actually quicker 0-60 than a WRX wagon.
 
BRH said:
Considering the possible trade-up from a Forester to a new WRX Sport
Wagon, and have a few questions:

1. Does the WRX's Turbo require Premium fuel? (probably a dumb
question, but I wanted to make sure...)

There are those who will tell you you don't _need_ Premium but it is
considered what you use when you decide to buy the car. (High
compression motors go for hi octane fuel.)
2. What kind of gas mileage can really be expected?

See recent thread: "wrx average mpg"
3. How has the car been with regard to reliability?

Some folks have reported 'Piston Slap', esp those in very cold
climates. There _have_ been a few recalls or service advisories, but
no catastrophic "wheels falling off" or "catching fire while stuck in
traffic" type failures.
4. I know that storage capacity doesn't quite measure up to a
Forester's, but is there really much difference in this regard? (Can it
hold 2 sets of golf clubs, for example)..

If you fold the rear seat down you can carry half a doz or more. btw-
The rear seat is a split model so you can retain part cargo/part
seating capability. I'd take your golf clubs to the dealer and see for
yourself.
I'm happy with the Forester, but just considering soenthing more zippy
and fun, while still retaining some practicality.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bert

The Impreza _is_ a fun little car, it's a bit heavy; but that's in
part due to the stiffness and safety design of the chassis. It's more
an AWD car vs a 4WD car- by that I mean it isn't really suited to
offroading and avoiding high centered adventures. But in a more On
Road situation it runs and runs w/ a smile on the face of most drivers.
 
T said:
There are those who will tell you you don't _need_ Premium but it is
considered what you use when you decide to buy the car. (High
compression motors go for hi octane fuel.)

Considering that the owner's manual says to use premium, I wouldn't listen
to the guy who says you don't "need" premium.
 
T said:
There are those who will tell you you don't _need_ Premium but it is
considered what you use when you decide to buy the car. (High
compression motors go for hi octane fuel.)

Well - most factory turbo'ed cars actually have a LOWER compression
ratio than their normally aspirated counterparts. The spec sheet
for the WRX's 2.0L turbo says 8.0:1. My '95 Acura Integra GS-R has
a 10.0:1 compression ratio. I've seen engines using regular with a
9.0:1 compression ratio.

However - the boost from the turbo will increase the pressures in
the engine which then makes higher octane fuel necessary.
 
1. Does the WRX's Turbo require Premium fuel?

Covered quite well already, but YES.
2. What kind of gas mileage can really be expected?

Depends hugely on how you drive. A direct function of how much you use the
turbo.
I typically get between 19-25 (around town-freeway) sometimes as much as 27
if just crusing on the freeway. On the other hand I dumped about 1/4 of a
tank in 1.5 hours driving around one night.
3. How has the car been with regard to reliability?

24K miles, and no probs yet. The WRX (02-04 I think) was recalled for a
cruise control cable problem but it was a 30 min fix or less.
4. I know that storage capacity doesn't quite measure up to a
Forester's, but is there really much difference in this regard?

I have moved twice in my '02 WRX Wagon. I have had two full sized bikes in
the back with the rear seats folded down. Up to 4 snowboards with one rear
seat laid down, plus 3 people (extra board). A 32" tv plus lots of room for
clothes and stuff. A full sized dinning table (came apart some) and four
chairs which did not come apart at all. All these with the hatch completely
closed. So it holds alot! Not to mention two people laying down in the
back watching a drive-in with the hatch open, works GREAT!

Again as mentioned before the Forester XT (or some Forester model) is faster
0-60 but for me it's all about the WRX. Plus if you are really concerned
about a few tenth's of a second, upgrades for the WRX will easily fix that.

Best of luck in your choice.

Ed
 
And some owner's manuals state you don't have to change your oil but every
7500 miles. Do you know anyone that lets their Sooby go that long
(Synthetic oil users exempt) between oil changes?

My 1994 750il BMW (that's a 5.0 V-12 engine BTW) calls for premium (93 or
better). I won't pay nearly $3 per gallon for it in California, so I use
regular 87. I've been doing that for almost four years now and more than
50,000 miles without a ping or any engine troubles.

Alex
'03 Baja
 
alex3324 said:
And some owner's manuals state you don't have to change your oil but every
7500 miles. Do you know anyone that lets their Sooby go that long
(Synthetic oil users exempt) between oil changes?

My Sooby manual doesn't say 7,500 miles, but if it did I don't see any
problem with accepting the advice of the engineers who designed the system.
My 1994 750il BMW (that's a 5.0 V-12 engine BTW) calls for premium (93 or
better). I won't pay nearly $3 per gallon for it in California, so I use
regular 87. I've been doing that for almost four years now and more than
50,000 miles without a ping or any engine troubles.

Bet you're not making the power you should though.
 
Maybe not, but 140 mph suits me just fine with 87 octane fuel. I think top
end is near 160, but I haven't had it that far and no plans to in the
future.
 
alex3324 said:
Maybe not, but 140 mph suits me just fine with 87 octane fuel. I think top
end is near 160, but I haven't had it that far and no plans to in the
future.

87 octane is piss.

octane = power, ESPECIALLY if you can tune for it.

jm2c
ken
 
Ken said:
87 octane is piss.

octane = power, ESPECIALLY if you can tune for it.

jm2c
ken
Ken,

The higher the octane, the less power is contained in a volume of gas.
The additives used to increase the octane rating don't add any power,
and they essentially take up space. What they do is to allow the gas to
burn rather than explode in high compression situations.
burning gas is good for power, exploding gas is bad.

Engines designed for high octane gas definitely make more power on high
octane gas. But only if it's designed for it. An engine designed for
regular (87 in my part of the US) gas won't get any power benefit from
93. High-test often has more detergents, and a good cleaning on a
engine made for 87 can sometimes restore power that the engine had when new.

That said, 93 octane Mobil and Exxon is all that I let into my '02 WRX
wagon. I'm moving cross country next week, and I remember in the high
elevations that sometimes premium only has a 89 or 90 octane rating. I
guess the gas companies think that higher elevation means lower air
pressure and therefore less oxygen in a given cylinder charge. But I'm
thinking that turbo engines can pack just as much air into the cylinder
at high elevation as it can at sea level, at least away from redline.
Does anyone know for sure? Hopefully the guy using 87 in his WRX lives
high in the rockies.
 
Byron writes :
The higher the octane, the less power is contained in a volume of gas.
The additives used to increase the octane rating don't add any power,
and they essentially take up space. What they do is to allow the gas to
burn rather than explode in high compression situations.
burning gas is good for power, exploding gas is bad.

I'd like to know how you can get away with using regular (87)
gas in an engine with a 10:1 compression ratio. I've
always heard that would need high octane fuel, but Subaru
recommends regular for their 2.5 litre non-turbo engine.
 
Engines designed for high octane gas definitely make more power on high
octane gas. But only if it's designed for it. An engine designed for
regular (87 in my part of the US) gas won't get any power benefit from
93. High-test often has more detergents, and a good cleaning on a
engine made for 87 can sometimes restore power that the engine had when new.

One exception is turbo engines where the boost is limited by the
output of knock sensors. Higher octane fuel, by producing less knock,
will allow the ECU to turn up the boost to up to the max, producing
more power (by using more fuel).


To reply, please remove one letter from each side of "@"
Spammers are VERMIN. Please kill them all.
 
Doug said:
One exception is turbo engines where the boost is limited by the
output of knock sensors. Higher octane fuel, by producing less knock,
will allow the ECU to turn up the boost to up to the max, producing
more power (by using more fuel).

It's important to note that knock sensors only detect knock *after* it's
already occurring. They *limit* the damage caused by engine knock (a
catch-all term for a whole host of abnormal fuel ignition situations), they
do not *prevent* this damage. It is therefore *always* desirable to use
fuel of appropriate octane for your engine's internal cylinder pressures
(which might be elevated by a high compression ratio or by an external
pressurizer such as a turbocharger or supercharger) and not to rely on the
knock sensor(s) to "adjust" your engine's timing to accommodate lower-grade
fuel. Such timing adjustments in response to detected engine knock
shouldn't be viewed as normal computer-aided adjustments to the engine (as
would be the case with adjustments to the fuel-air mixture made by an oxygen
sensor, for example), but rather as more akin to emergency damage control.

You wouldn't advocate sticking one's fingers into a wood chipper just
because the body has a mechanism to keep from bleeding to death after losing
a finger. Why would you advocate using low-octane fuel in your car just
because its engine has a mechanism to keep it from self-destructing from the
resulting abnormal fuel ignition?

A Google search of "pre-ignition," "auto-ignition," "detonation," or just
plain "engine-knock" will provide more information than you're really likely
to want about the causes, results, and prevention of premature engine
failure due to the various types of abnormal fuel ignition that are
collectively referred to as "knock."

- Greg Reed
 
The higher the octane, the less power is contained in a volume of gas.
The additives used to increase the octane rating don't add any power,
and they essentially take up space. What they do is to allow the gas
to burn rather than explode in high compression situations.
burning gas is good for power, exploding gas is bad.

I'm not sure I buy this. The "additives used to increase the octane
rating," as you put it, are combustible hydrocarbons just like those that
*decrease* the octane rating. Actually, "octane" is a specific hydrocarbon
chain that shows excellent pre-ignition resistance characteristics. The
"octane rating" is actually named after this hydrocarbon. A fuel having an
"octane rating" of 100 has anti-knock characteristics identical to the
hydrocarbon named "octane." Because high-octane fuel by its very nature is
less volatile than low-octane fuel it can sometimes lead to harder cold
starts. Perhaps you're confusing this characteristic with a lack of "power"
contained in the fuel. And most modern gasolines don't actually use much
octane in them, preferring to use other hydrocarbons (such as toluene) that
actually have even greater knock-resistance than octane, and therefore
octane ratings of greater than 100 in their pure form. (Pure toluene's
octane rating is 114, IIRC.)
Engines designed for high octane gas definitely make more power on
high octane gas. But only if it's designed for it. An engine
designed for regular (87 in my part of the US) gas won't get any
power benefit from

This is 100% correct. An engine that experiences relatively low combustion
chamber pressures and temperatures won't be as susceptible to abnormal fuel
ignition, and so won't benefit from higher octane fuel. Higher-performance
engines will experience greater combustion chamber pressures and
temperatures (especially so when driven hard), and will *require*
high-octane fuel to prevent damaging engine knock from occurring. And it's
important to note that very high fuel economy can be seen as a different
type of "high performance" than very high power generation, and that
extremely efficient engines *may* still require premium. In fact, I'm
convinced that the biggest reason that "economy" cars are almost universally
designed to run on 87 octane gasoline is the impression by engineers that
the buyers of these cars aren't going to want to pay for premium fuel. I
expect that even better fuel economy could be achieved by designing their
engines to use premium. But I'm just an enthusiast and not an automotive
engineer, so this opinion should be taken with the appropriate grain of
salt.
93. High-test often has more detergents, and a good cleaning on a
engine made for 87 can sometimes restore power that the engine had
when new.

This was absolutely true 20 years ago when I started driving. My folks used
to run a tankful of premium through their grocery-getters once every couple
of months for this reason. I'm not so sure anymore, however. In the race
to portray each distributor's gasoline as "better" than their competitors,
each company has started adding detergents to its entire line of gasolines.
Start listening to the claims made by Shell and Exxon and the others on
their television commercials and you'll see what I'm talking about.
That said, 93 octane Mobil and Exxon is all that I let into my '02 WRX
wagon. I'm moving cross country next week, and I remember in the high
elevations that sometimes premium only has a 89 or 90 octane rating.
I guess the gas companies think that higher elevation means lower air
pressure and therefore less oxygen in a given cylinder charge. But
I'm thinking that turbo engines can pack just as much air into the
cylinder at high elevation as it can at sea level, at least away from
redline. Does anyone know for sure? Hopefully the guy using 87 in
his WRX lives high in the rockies.

I, too, allow only 93-octane into my Forester. The manual calls for 91+,
but the choices in my area are limited to 87, 89, and 93. If I ever come
across a pump with 91-octane in it, I'll probably use that. After I
"upgrade" my Forester's boost level, however, I will from that point forward
use only 93+ in the car. My wife's grocery-getter van, however, has never
seen anything but 87-octane in its entire life. And the stuff about lower
octane being acceptable at higher elevations is questionable, as well --
especially in a turbo-ed engine. Short of elevations in the stratosphere, a
turbocharged engine will experience no change in performance with changing
elevations. This is the exact reason that turbochargers and superchargers
were first put on piston-driven aircraft. If you're at an elevation where
your turbo can't hit max boost, then you're probably also breathing from an
oxygen tank.

Bottom line is this: If you elect to buy a high-performance car such as the
WRX or STi or XT, you're buying increased long-term costs in addition to the
higher sticker price. These increased long-term costs include higher
insurance premiums, likely shorter lifespan of engine and drivetrain
components and _the cost of buying better gasoline_. All of these long-term
costs must be considered before selecting a high-performance car. For many
of us, these costs are acceptable in order to get the kind of driving
experience we want. If these costs are not acceptable to you or if you
cannot afford them, then you should consider a different car. There's
really no excuse for buying a car that needs premium and then putting
something less into it. IMHO, it's no different than skipping oil changes
just to save money. If your budget is stretched that tight, then you've
bought the wrong car.

- Greg Reed
 
Maybe not, but 140 mph suits me just fine with 87 octane fuel. I think top
end is near 160, but I haven't had it that far and no plans to in the
future.

Any plans for new valves? :)
 

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