Why not Automatic?

L

LT

Looking to buy a new Forester with an Auto. There seems to be a strong
sentiment (bias?) for manual trannys. Is this just a preference or does the
Subaru Automatic not perform well?
Thanks
LT
 
LT said:
Looking to buy a new Forester with an Auto. There seems to be a strong
sentiment (bias?) for manual trannys. Is this just a preference or does the
Subaru Automatic not perform well?

There are in general three different types of AWD systems that Subaru has.
The AWD system on the base automatics is quite different from the one in the
base manuals, which are different again from the high-end automatics and
manuals.

(1) The system in the base manuals is all-mechanical. It is a refinement of
a classical 4WD system that's been around in similar forms since the
earliest days of automobiles. The mechanical system is considered much
smoother and predictable than the base automatic system (#2). It's also
considered to be lower maintenance, more rugged, and a faster-reactive AWD
system than #2. The system attempts to distribute torque evenly between
front and rear wheels at all times, even while reacting to slippages.

(2) The system in the base automatics is best describe as
electro-mechanical. It uses sensors at the wheels to measure wheel slippage,
and a computer calculates this, and sends orders to an electronically
activated clutch pack to increase or decrease the amount of torque that gets
distributed from the front to the rear. Under normal circumstances it will
attempt to send most of the torque to the front wheels, only giving torque
to the rear wheels when slippage is detected by the computer. That doesn't
sound too different than system #1, and it may even sound technically
superior. But the all-mechanical system reacts to wheel slippages in a
fashion that the electronic system can't match for reaction time nor
smoothness.

(3) The highend system (available only on WRXs and up, and Outback H6's) is
a combination of the first two systems; it's best described as an
all-mechanical system with electromechanical assist. So it's sort of the
best of both worlds. It's available on the higher-end Subarus either with
manual or automatic transmissions.

Yousuf Khan
 
Hi,
It is universal thing. Real driver drives with stick. Sissies drive with
auto. You can't control your car with auto and gas mileage is worse too.
Auto. performs well as auto just moving the car. If you really want to
drive, drive with manual. I am getting old and lazy, my car has an
auto. But kids' cars
have all manual with short shift kit, harder bushings and racing clutch
kit, etc. Whenever feel like it, I took one of their car for a spin.
Tony
 
I'm glad there is a choice. You CAN select a lower gear with your
auto(though I rarely go to L I select 2nd once or twice a week going up
a long hill in traffic) Manuals give you something to do that lets you
feel a little more involved. Autos are better for towing. But you can
push start a stick. Autos expensive to fix if they break. manuals will
require clutches. Autos often have higher resale value. Mileage
difference negligible nowadays due to lock-up torque converters and
efficient (but not 'fun') shift points.

get what you want - this is America!

Carl
1 Lucky Texan
 
Yousuf said:
There are in general three different types of AWD systems that Subaru has.
The AWD system on the base automatics is quite different from the one in the
base manuals, which are different again from the high-end automatics and
manuals.

(1) The system in the base manuals is all-mechanical. It is a refinement of
a classical 4WD system that's been around in similar forms since the
earliest days of automobiles. The mechanical system is considered much
smoother and predictable than the base automatic system (#2). It's also
considered to be lower maintenance, more rugged, and a faster-reactive AWD
system than #2. The system attempts to distribute torque evenly between
front and rear wheels at all times, even while reacting to slippages.

Not quite. When slippage occurs, the viscous center LSD will almost
lock - which means that most of the torque goes to the wheels that grip,
by definition, and that's what you want. Also, the MT has a center
diff, the cheap AT (2) does not.

(2) The system in the base automatics is best describe as
electro-mechanical. It uses sensors at the wheels to measure wheel slippage,
and a computer calculates this, and sends orders to an electronically
activated clutch pack to increase or decrease the amount of torque that gets
distributed from the front to the rear. Under normal circumstances it will
attempt to send most of the torque to the front wheels, only giving torque
to the rear wheels when slippage is detected by the computer. That doesn't
sound too different than system #1, and it may even sound technically
superior. But the all-mechanical system reacts to wheel slippages in a
fashion that the electronic system can't match for reaction time nor
smoothness.

It also uses acceleration and decelleration as a measure, and thus will
provide assistance from the rear at start and in some other situations,
pro-actively. But under normal driving, it is 90:10 (almost FWD) -
which means you can get into trouble much more easily than with the MT
AWD (50:50 from the outset). Also, a number of users have complained
about sudden, unpredictable shifts of power between the back and front
on slippery surfaces (slush, snow, and icy snow), which can even lead to
fishtailing in a car that normally understeers quite heavily (e.g.,
Forester AT). The MT starts with 50:50 and will be almost in a
continuously locked state on slippery surfaces - which is what you want.
It also has more neutral handling characteristics on any type of
surface (especially, if you add a stiffer rear sway bar).
(3) The highend system (available only on WRXs and up, and Outback H6's) is
a combination of the first two systems; it's best described as an
all-mechanical system with electromechanical assist. So it's sort of the
best of both worlds. It's available on the higher-end Subarus either with
manual or automatic transmissions.

Not sure about the availability of (3) on MT transmissions, certainly
not for the standard WRX. And the H6 only comes with AT in the US and
perhaps all markets (or with very few exceptions).

As others have alluded to, driveability, convenience, mileage,
durability/maintenance, and other factors also play a role. Don't
believe advertised (EPA) mileage numbers for the AT - they are almost
always much lower in real life. Conversely, MT drivers have reported
long-term average mileage as high as 30-32 mpg on sustained highway
driving. So, depending on where and how you drive, the mpg figure
difference can easily be 4-5mpg or more.

- D
 
TransFixed said:
Not quite. When slippage occurs, the viscous center LSD will almost
lock - which means that most of the torque goes to the wheels that grip,
by definition, and that's what you want. Also, the MT has a center
diff, the cheap AT (2) does not.

Agreed, but I was attempting to keep the explanation simple.
Not sure about the availability of (3) on MT transmissions, certainly
not for the standard WRX. And the H6 only comes with AT in the US and
perhaps all markets (or with very few exceptions).

The variable differential splitter technology on the STi, the DCCD, is a
modified version of this system.

Yousuf Khan
 
Tony Hwang said:
Hi,
It is universal thing. Real driver drives with stick. Sissies drive with
auto. You can't control your car with auto and gas mileage is worse too.
Auto. performs well as auto just moving the car. If you really want to
drive, drive with manual. I am getting old and lazy, my car has an
auto. But kids' cars
have all manual with short shift kit, harder bushings and racing clutch
kit, etc. Whenever feel like it, I took one of their car for a spin.
Tony

It's not just a masculinity contest in this case, there are some real
technical differences in the AWD technologies between automatics and
manuals.

Yousuf Khan
 
This is a bunch of nonsense. People who city drive constantly and have
better things to do than shift every five seconds drive autos. Granted a
manual gives you better control over the car, an auto is more convenient,
and for people who just for whatever reason don't want to shift. It does not
make you "lazy", or a "sissy", it is a simple matter of preference. If for
some reason in an auto it becomes necessary to shift into a lower gear, you
can do it anyway.

I have a 1991 Loyale with an auto. In my last fuelup I checked the mileage
readings - 27 MPG in MOSTLY CITY driving. The 96 Legacy in our yard gets
22-25 in city, and performs better in the snow than any car I've ever
driven. And I live in Maine, so I've seen some bad storms. (Anyone else
remember the icestorm of 98?)

If you want auto, buy an auto without fear. I personally would rather my
Loyale were a 5-sp manual, but it isn't - and I STILL love the old clunker.
( I just wish the automatic had another gear to shift into. . when you get
up around 70, you start wishing you had a fourth gear. . )

I don't intend any flames in this, but honestly - if everyone in the world
drove manuals, especially here in the USA where people seem to want more to
use their right hand to talk on their cell phone while driving (the makings
of a whole OTHER discussion), there'd be a lot more noise pollution. (
*GRRRRNT, THUNK, GRRRNT* "Grind me a pound!" ) Sure, the auto repair
industry would be booming with clutch/drive train repair work, but. .that's
gonna be an expensive repair bill after you teach your teenager to drive on
your manual. . .

After I get out of college, I'm probably going to get a second car - and
it'll probably be a manual. But like I said, if you want an auto, buy one.
To answer the original poster's question? It performs fine.

--Decimal Cat
 
Then come to America and get what you want!

I'll welcome you with open arms.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

libertarians: the only group devoted to defending
the rights of the smallest minority on earth...
....the Individual



David Coggins wrote:
 
--


No its not, this is the world.

It is the WORLD WIDE WEB after all!!

No it's not. This is the internet.
And we're using Network News Transport Protocol,
not Hyper Text Transfer Protocol for the world wide web.
 
No it's not. This is the internet.
And we're using Network News Transport Protocol,
not Hyper Text Transfer Protocol for the world wide web.

... which happily existed in its current form for at least
10 years before WWW was invented...

It's funny that in 10+ years HTTP hasn't been able to come
up with anything remotely as conveneint as Usenet. All these
webboards, forums, discussion boards, etc still have long
way to go to reach usability of Usenet.

DK
 
Sounds like there might be a reliability issue with the auto, guess I should
buy an extended warranty for it. Thanks for the many responses to my
posting.
LT
 
There certainly is a lot of bias against the Autos. Many of the technical
details I don't deny, but what's this about 'more rugged'. Just stick to the
actuals, please.

I tell you one thing, I take my Forester offroad, and despite the manual in
Australia having low range, my manual counterparts often stall when tackling
difficult rocky terrain - especially up steep hills. Bit I can slowly crawl
up with my blessed torque converter - constantly outdoing the manual. Who
cares about a slightly faster AWD action whey you've stalled mid way up a
hill?
 
Not likely a reliability issue w/ the auto, just a personal preference. If
you don't want to shift all the time, buy an auto, if you want "control" of
your car buy manual.
 
It also uses acceleration and decelleration as a measure, and thus will
provide assistance from the rear at start and in some other situations,
pro-actively. But under normal driving, it is 90:10 (almost FWD) -
which means you can get into trouble much more easily than with the MT
AWD (50:50 from the outset).


The front to rear drive split varies - different markets have different
"static" drive splits.
 
Sounds like there might be a reliability issue with the auto, guess I should
buy an extended warranty for it. Thanks for the many responses to my
posting.
LT



In Subaru's case, the reliability issues are usually with the manuals and
their factory clutches.
 
Losiho said:
The front to rear drive split varies - different markets have different
"static" drive splits.

Really? Which markets have which splits? I'm interested in finding out.
 
Really? Which markets have which splits? I'm interested in finding out.


It was discussed in this newsgroup a couple of months ago. For example, here
in Australia the static ratio is 60:40, and the clutch pack automatically
adjusts drive anywhere from 95 : 5 to 50:50 depending on grip and
conditions.

http://subaru.com.au/awd/
 
Losiho said:
It was discussed in this newsgroup a couple of months ago. For example, here
in Australia the static ratio is 60:40, and the clutch pack automatically
adjusts drive anywhere from 95 : 5 to 50:50 depending on grip and
conditions.

http://subaru.com.au/awd/

That marketing nonsense has been highly criticized. There is almost
nothing correct in either the graphics nor in the associated text.

Think! For both the AT and VTD systems, the information claims 50:50 as
the most extreme torque distribution it can achieve (away from RWD
emphasis for the VDT, or away from FWD emphasis for the ATS). If that
were true, Subarus would be horrible to drive on slippery surfaces,
since 1/2 of the torque would go to the slipping axle, whose wheels
would spin like crazy with all that torque and no resistance! In the
end you would go nowhere, since no significant torque can be transmitted
to the slipping wheels, and 50% of almost nothing is still (almost) nothing.

I continue to claim that a system without center differential and just a
clutch pack cannot be engineered much away from 90:10 or so under
standard usage. It is the (mostly planetary) center differentials that
provide some AWD cars with a set initial fore/aft ratio significantly
different from 100:0 (MB, BMW, and others). A clutch pack cannot do
this due to friction and wear. It operates more in an on-off mode (with
neither position being completely open or locked).

- D.
 

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