Spotting leaking headgaskets

[Jim Lofgren]

I've got a 2k Legacy OB that I'm really curious about these blown headgasket
problems. It now has 56K miles on it and has no performance problems.
Where do I look to see the leaks (if they are there) I don't want to take
it to the dealer unless I have to. Fortunately we bought the extended
warranty!

Regards,
Jim Lofgren
Redmond, WA

 

[Jim Stewart]

I've got a 2k Legacy OB that I'm really curious about these blown headgasket
problems. It now has 56K miles on it and has no performance problems.
Where do I look to see the leaks (if they are there) I don't want to take
it to the dealer unless I have to. Fortunately we bought the extended
warranty!

Stick a screwdriver in the coolant reservoir
and see if there's any sign of oil on it.
If you see any, take it in.

Look at the the oil dipstick for signs of
water. If you see any, take it in.

Look under the engine. You'll see 2 fore
and aft dividing lines on each side. The
outermost is the valve cover to head seal.
A little oil staining there is not a problem.
The innermost is the head gasket. Any gross
staining should be shown to your dealer.

 

[R]

Stick a screwdriver in the coolant reservoir
and see if there's any sign of oil on it.
If you see any, take it in.

Look at the the oil dipstick for signs of
water. If you see any, take it in.

Look under the engine. You'll see 2 fore
and aft dividing lines on each side. The
outermost is the valve cover to head seal.
A little oil staining there is not a problem.
The innermost is the head gasket. Any gross
staining should be shown to your dealer.

Also, borrow a carbon monoxide detector, place it in a plastic bag,
take a sample of air from the coolant overflow tank after a bit of
driving, and squirt it into the bag. A leaky head gasket will
sometimes send exhaust into the cooling system, which will show up using
the CO detector.

 

[ChrisP]

From what I've heard, your 2000 model (Phase II, SOHC) won't have the
"coolant in the oil" type of problem. I'd look for coolant leaks under the
car. Sounds like you'll be hearing from SOA soon and will have the stop
leak added, as will I.

My 2Cents: This is my first and last Subaru (2001 Legacy GT). If a car
company can't get something as basic as a head gasket right... what else in
the car is also poorly designed? I've had engine "ping" from day 1 - no
dealer has found cause or cure.

-Chris

 

[Rick Courtright]

My 2Cents: This is my first and last Subaru (2001 Legacy GT). If a car
company can't get something as basic as a head gasket right... what else in
the car is also poorly designed? I've had engine "ping" from day 1 - no

Hi,

2 more cents worth: if headgasket design is your criterion for not
buying a car, you probably want to stay away from Toyota, Nissan, GM and
perhaps many others, too. Blame emissions regs before you chastise the
engineers: heads have to be designed with so much water capacity to keep
things cool that many no longer have enough metal to be strong enough to
resist warping and other "movement" in operational conditions. Sorry,
the end of the days of iron blocks with heavy iron heads spelled the
start of a whole new series of problems.

As for the pinging problem, I assume you've eliminated the usual
suspects: changed brand/grade of fuel, checked/adjusted timing (if
possible on your engine,) checked/replaced plugs with proper brand/heat
range, etc. If so, you might try some of this stuff: www.rxp.com. It
helped with a "perpetual" pinging problem on my car.

Good luck,

Rick

 

[ChrisP]

Hi,

2 more cents worth: if headgasket design is your criterion for not
buying a car, you probably want to stay away from Toyota, Nissan, GM and
perhaps many others, too. Blame emissions regs before you chastise the
engineers: heads have to be designed with so much water capacity to keep
things cool that many no longer have enough metal to be strong enough to
resist warping and other "movement" in operational conditions. Sorry,
the end of the days of iron blocks with heavy iron heads spelled the
start of a whole new series of problems.

As for the pinging problem, I assume you've eliminated the usual
suspects: changed brand/grade of fuel, checked/adjusted timing (if
possible on your engine,) checked/replaced plugs with proper brand/heat
range, etc. If so, you might try some of this stuff: www.rxp.com. It
helped with a "perpetual" pinging problem on my car.

Good luck,

Rick

Rick, Good reply. And I somewhat agree, as my previous car (924S) had a
major head gasket problem. But I still maintain that engineering the
gasket - head - block - bolts has been ongoing for 100 years. Seems to me
that much is known and mistakes should be few and far between.

As for my perennial "ping" problem (now I worry that this will exacerbate
the gasket failure), I've experimented with the usual fixes, dealer(s) say
there computer shows no problems. Yes, I now suspect that the plugs could
be of the wrong heat range or at least a change could eliminate this
possibility. As for having to add anything to fix a problem that has
existed from day 1 - there is an inherent problem with this car - it should
work with the correct fuel. (BTW, either one or two grade increases in
octane had no effect.)
-Chris

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Sometimes carbon will build up and cause preignition - maybe a borescope
or just some type of carbon treatment (SeaFoam,etc.) would help?

 

[CompUser]

Sometimes carbon will build up and cause preignition - maybe a borescope
or just some type of carbon treatment (SeaFoam,etc.) would help?

Hopefully it only causes *detonation*, not
preignition ;-)

Steve

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

OK - your just DYING to explain the difference so - go ahead!

;^)

Carl
1 Lucky texan

 

[Rick Courtright]

major head gasket problem. But I still maintain that engineering the
gasket - head - block - bolts has been ongoing for 100 years. Seems to me
that much is known and mistakes should be few and far between.

Agreed, at least in principle! BUT... for 75 or 80 of those 100 years,
blocks and heads were both iron (same expansion coefficients when
heated) and standard running temps were in the 180 deg F range. When the
politicians stepped into the game and thought they could out-engineer
the engineers with the stroke of a pen (emissions laws), the problems
started. Alloy heads on iron blocks expand at different rates than iron
heads, so there's some "movement" going on, regardless of how well
engineered the system is (and I can only guess at how much "motion" is
involved with an all alloy engine like the Subie's.) Some of it can be
offset by using more metal, but then many heads won't flow enough water
to keep from self-destructing when coolant operating temps of 195 to 215
deg F become the norm. Unfortunately, no engineer in the world has been
good enough to out-engineer the laws of physics, but the politicians
think they are. So we have problems.

Then we add the bean counters... no sense going there. Except to say
that I'd gladly pay a buck to cover what some idiot with a calculator
says he can save a penny at by leaving out. Just the cost of a single 30
second TV commercial with Lance Armstrong would probably cover the cost
of R&D for a head gasket that would seldom fail. But will it happen?
Doubtful.

In the meantime, I'm wondering out loud if Subie engines would respond
well to the treatment we used to find helpful with early watercooled VW
and Honda engines: periodic retorquing of the head bolts? This
eliminated a LOT of headgasket failures from what I saw. Of course, if
Subaru is using "stretch bolts" on the heads, that becomes an
impossibility. Even if not, the labor involved in getting the engine
opened up enough to retorque the heads is probably not that different
from what's involved with headgasket replacement.

Life used to be simpler...

Rick

 

[CompUser]

OK - your just DYING to explain the difference so - go ahead!

;^)

Why, soitanly!

Actually, I'll let Allen W. Cline explain it...

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Det
onation/index.php

 

[jeff]

My 2k Legacy wagon with 97k miles started leaking coolant several
weeks ago. Took it to the dealer and they called back to tell me it
was the left head gasket. OUCH! The good news was that Subaru would
pay for everything. While they had the head off they checked it for
flatness and found it out of spec. So I also got a new head,
no-charge!. Whahooo! Also had them replace the timing belt. Life is
good.

Jeff

 

[Florian Feuser /FFF/]

Agreed, at least in principle! BUT... for 75 or 80 of those 100 years,
blocks and heads were both iron (same expansion coefficients when
heated) and standard running temps were in the 180 deg F range. When the
politicians stepped into the game and thought they could out-engineer
the engineers with the stroke of a pen (emissions laws), the problems
started.

Engineering problems predate emissions laws by quite a bit of time. The point
you're trying to make shows a little political bias, doesn't it?

Alloy heads on iron blocks expand at different rates than iron
heads, so there's some "movement" going on, regardless of how well
engineered the system is (and I can only guess at how much "motion" is
involved with an all alloy engine like the Subie's.) Some of it can be
offset by using more metal, but then many heads won't flow enough water
to keep from self-destructing when coolant operating temps of 195 to 215
deg F become the norm. Unfortunately, no engineer in the world has been
good enough to out-engineer the laws of physics, but the politicians
think they are. So we have problems.

So all the semi- and closed-deck blocks used for racing are on the verge of self-
destruction?
Controlling the combustion and its products is a valid engineering challenge,
just as maximizing efficiency (power/fuel consumption).

The problems the EJ25 is facing has literally nothing to do with the efforts to
make a cleaner running engine. The problem started when the US domestic market
called for a bigger engine and Subaru engineers took the EJ22 and increased the
bore size without redesigning and reinforcing the block.

florian

 

[Shrek]

Well then you probably don't want to buy any GM product either. They had tons
of internal head gaske leaks for over a decade.

I've my HG is going to leak, I rather have an external leak.

 

[Verbs Under My Gel]

Agreed, at least in principle! BUT... for 75 or 80 of those 100 years,
blocks and heads were both iron (same expansion coefficients when
heated)

True. The head and block are made of the same material (cast iron).
Cast iron has the same coefficient of expansion as cast iron.

Alloy heads on iron blocks expand at different rates than iron
heads, so there's some "movement" going on, regardless of how well
engineered the system is
Agreed.

(and I can only guess at how much "motion" is
involved with an all alloy engine like the Subie's.)

Here the heads and block halves are made of an aluminum alloy. How is
there any more "movement" in this case than in the iron/iron case
mentioned above?

Then we add the bean counters... no sense going there. Except to say
that I'd gladly pay a buck to cover what some idiot with a calculator
says he can save a penny at by leaving out. Just the cost of a single 30
second TV commercial with Lance Armstrong would probably cover the cost
of R&D for a head gasket that would seldom fail. But will it happen?
Doubtful.

I'm with you, here! Open-deck blocks can be die-cast (a cheaper
process than the sand-casting used for closed-deck blocks), and I
believe that the open-deck design allows the cylinders to wobble a
bit, perhaps weakening the head gasket seal.

In the meantime, I'm wondering out loud if Subie engines would respond
well to the treatment we used to find helpful with early watercooled VW
and Honda engines: periodic retorquing of the head bolts? This
eliminated a LOT of headgasket failures from what I saw. Of course, if
Subaru is using "stretch bolts" on the heads, that becomes an
impossibility. Even if not, the labor involved in getting the engine
opened up enough to retorque the heads is probably not that different
from what's involved with headgasket replacement.

I'll have to check the FSM (tomorrow) to see what type of bolts are
used. How frequenty would one re-torque the bolts on said Honda
mills?

 

[Verbs Under My Gel]

Hi,

2 more cents worth: if headgasket design is your criterion for not
buying a car, you probably want to stay away from Toyota, Nissan, GM and
perhaps many others, too. Blame emissions regs before you chastise the
engineers: heads have to be designed with so much water capacity to keep
things cool that many no longer have enough metal to be strong enough to
resist warping and other "movement" in operational conditions. Sorry,
the end of the days of iron blocks with heavy iron heads spelled the
start of a whole new series of problems.

I'd wager that Subaru uses aluminum blocks and heads for weight
savings. Remember, in these cars the _entire engine_ overhangs the
front axle, so as far as balanced handling is concerned, the lighter
the better.

Take my '02 Legacy GT sedan, for example. It has a 55%/45% front-rear
weight distribution. Not too shabby for a car whose entire engine and
part of its transmission is ahead of the front axle, no?

The heads on the Phase-II (SOHC) 2.5 are pretty darn stout! I believe
the _blocks_ are the problem. I wouldn't be the lease bit surprised
if the 2.5 is little more that a bored-out 2.2 Anyone know for
certain?

As for the pinging problem, I assume you've eliminated the usual
suspects: changed brand/grade of fuel, checked/adjusted timing (if
possible on your engine,) checked/replaced plugs with proper brand/heat
range, etc. If so, you might try some of this stuff: www.rxp.com. It
helped with a "perpetual" pinging problem on my car.

I've had success with Chevron Techron Concentrate. I usually add it
shortly before an oil change, as I'm not sure what the little bit that
blows past the rings will do to the oil.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I'll have to check the FSM (tomorrow) to see what type of bolts are
used. How frequenty would one re-torque the bolts on said Honda
mills?

I don't honestly recall what the Honda factory suggested (if they did at
all), but IIRC the VW book used to call for retorquing at either 15k or
30k miles. Since the book called for valve adjustment at 15k intervals,
I used that as a guide. Independent Honda wrenches I knew back then
(late '70s) suggested the same interval. Some of the guys I knew said
you should retorque initially at 5k, then you could go to 30k intervals.
When I blew a headgasket on a Toyota truck, my machine shop guy said to
torque the headbolts 5 ft/lbs over the book spec when the head was first
reinstalled, then check 'em at 30k intervals. My Toyota book was silent
on the subject. So I guess it's probably less important to worry about
the ACTUAL interval and more important to make sure one retorques at
SOME kind of reasonable and regular interval. Of course the problem with
Subie engine is that with the labor involved, what's "reasonable and
regular?"

Rick

 

[Rick Courtright]

Engineering problems predate emissions laws by quite a bit of time. The point
you're trying to make shows a little political bias, doesn't it?

If you wish to view it that way. The point I was trying to make without
writing a thesis has much more to do with the fact the general public
wasn't exposed to this problem much before emissions engines. If you
recall, there were few successful mass produced alloy head/iron block
engines in the pre-emissions era. Yes, the problems predate the laws.
But IMO the engineers basically threw in the towel until they were
forced to work on the emissions problem by legislation.

So all the semi- and closed-deck blocks used for racing are on the verge of self-
destruction?

IME an entire racing engine is on the verge of self-destruction much of
the time, but since it doesn't usually stay put together long enough to
see some of the effects we see in "street" cars after many tens of
thousands of miles, I'm not sure racing engines are a valid benchmark.

Controlling the combustion and its products is a valid engineering challenge,
just as maximizing efficiency (power/fuel consumption).

And it remains so!

called for a bigger engine and Subaru engineers took the EJ22 and increased the
bore size without redesigning and reinforcing the block.

I'm sure what you mention is PART of the problem. Now what about those
engines that predate the current horsepower race? I don't think leaky or
blown headgaskets are new to Subies: I first heard of 'em in the
mid-80s, long before Subaru was getting any kind of output from their US
engines. In fact, there's a '90 EA-82 marking its territory in green in
my garage--just as it has for over 100k of its 349k miles--even as I
type this... and I'd suggest a 90 hp 1.8l engine is understressed if
anything.

Rick

 

[Florian Feuser /FFF/]

If you wish to view it that way. The point I was trying to make without
writing a thesis has much more to do with the fact the general public
wasn't exposed to this problem much before emissions engines. If you
recall, there were few successful mass produced alloy head/iron block
engines in the pre-emissions era. Yes, the problems predate the laws.
But IMO the engineers basically threw in the towel until they were
forced to work on the emissions problem by legislation.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth - any discussion involving
environmental issues has a certain political aspect to it.

IME an entire racing engine is on the verge of self-destruction much of
the time, but since it doesn't usually stay put together long enough to
see some of the effects we see in "street" cars after many tens of
thousands of miles, I'm not sure racing engines are a valid benchmark.

Good point. However, in order to win a race, you've got to finish it. Therefore
weak spots tend to be eliminated in racing engines - the fact that they ARE
constantly on the verge of self-destruction is a matter of how they are driven,
not their construction.

To the point: If closing the deck or otherwise stabilizing the block would
significantly reduce the engine's cooling capability, racers wouldn't do it.

I'm sure what you mention is PART of the problem. Now what about those
engines that predate the current horsepower race? I don't think leaky or
blown headgaskets are new to Subies: I first heard of 'em in the
mid-80s, long before Subaru was getting any kind of output from their US
engines. In fact, there's a '90 EA-82 marking its territory in green in
my garage--just as it has for over 100k of its 349k miles--even as I
type this... and I'd suggest a 90 hp 1.8l engine is understressed if
anything.

Subaru's engineers may have a tradition of neglecting that issue, or it may be a
problem inherent to their engine design as you stated (different amounts of heat
expansion of engine components).

My personal experience is limited to the 2.2l and the 2.5l. Not too much being
different between those engines, it is fairly obvious what causes the head-
gasket problems the EJ25 is particularly famous for.

florian

 

[jeff]

My 2k Legacy wagon with 97k miles started leaking coolant several
weeks ago. Took it to the dealer and they called back to tell me it
was the left head gasket. OUCH! The good news was that Subaru would
pay for everything. While they had the head off they checked it for
flatness and found it out of spec. So I also got a new head,
no-charge!. Whahooo! Also had them replace the timing belt. Life is
good.

Jeff

Just to clarify, I'm not happy about having to replace the head. I am
VERY happy to not have to pay for any of it.

Jeff