Rotors warped in WRX? No way!

[Mark]

All:
Need some advise. As stated in a earlier post, my 02 WRX is having the
1st gear syncro replaced to *fix* the 1st gear grind. While the car
was at the dealer, I asked them to check the front brakes bacause when
you slow down (from 50mph) I get a lot of wheel shudder. This
indicates to me that the front rotors are warped. They problem I have
is the car ONLY has 12,000 miles on it. It seems that a car at this
low of milage should NOT have rotor problems. When I asked the
dealer, they said they have seen cars with as low as 1,000 miles have
warped rotors (hahah, I laughed at this).

My questions to my fellow Subaru owners is, should rotors warping be a
problem ONLY after 12,000 miles? I can attest that the car has not
been rallied or abused while I owned it (I bought it with 2,000 miles
on it). All my past cars have had 35,000 miles until the front pad
wore out and even then the rotors were OK.

Plus, My wife has a 04 Forester that now has 20,000 miles on it. Her
brakes are smooth as they were the day we drove the car home.

Thanks in advance to any help/advise you all can give me.

Mark

 

[Edward Hayes]

Could very well be that the brakes were seriously abused during the first
few thousand miles. Brakes do need a break-in to burnish the pads and
rotors. eddie

 

[dundo]

I had even stranger experience with warped rotors on my 2002 WRX. I
already posted this here some month ago. My car was sitting in a garage
for full two months while I was working in Europe. It was around 12000
miles then. I came back and at the first ride felt vibrations on a wheel
while braking. Service diagnosed warped rotors. Had to have rotors re-cut
and pads replaced. Since then no problem at all.

 

[Mike G.]

Mark,

I've got a 2002 WRX and have had the same problem. In fact, I just turned
mine several weeks ago. The car started developing the braking shudder
around 12,000 just like yours. Bought the car new, no rallying,
auto-crossing, or abuse.

If you turn or replace the rotors yourself you may need a hammer to get the
rear rotors off the hub, both of mine were really wedged on.

Mike

 

[S]

Hi Mark!

My questions to my fellow Subaru owners is, should rotors warping be a
problem ONLY after 12,000 miles?

I haven't had any warping problems (yet ;-), but one face of one rotor
(outside, left, front) has some pretty significant grooves showing
after ~18K on my '02 rex.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[S]

Hi Mark! Again!

My questions to my fellow Subaru owners is, should rotors warping be a
problem ONLY after 12,000 miles?

I haven't had any warping problems (yet ;-), but one face of one rotor
(outside, left, front) has some pretty significant grooves showing
after ~18K on my '02 rex.

Sigh. Overly enthusiastic usenet tool . . .

Anyway, as I was saying, grooves. I _do_ drive my car pretty hard, but
only on one rotor, and only one side?!? I'd bitch to the dealership,
but why waste my breath. When the time comes I'll install decent
aftermarket rotors and pads and be done with it.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Guest]

It's easy to do if someone did not torque the lug nuts evenly when they
rotated the tires....maybe even from the factory.

 

[Guest]

the 2 biggest culpprits are over-torqued lug nuts, & OVERHEATED
brakes.
given a decent grade nearby, i can take a brand new car,
with properly torqued nuts, and warp the rotors in 20 miles. over-
-torqued nuts just increase the problem.

i might ask when you first noted this vibration.

it is not how many miles youve driven, it's how hot
you got them. iv'e seen a lot of brakes, & typically the cars that
come in with warped rotors, show discoloration from heat as well.
what does that tell you? of course, your response will be
what a great driver you are & this could never happen to you,
& they must be defective, blah blah.
or maybe you've been driving the car with warped rotors
since you bought it at 2k miles? yeah that's it.



jlmx
(don't fry any wooden fish)

 

[Rob Munach]

Warped rotors are a myth. Go to this web site and read all about it:
www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

I don't believe a word of that.

 

[Edward Hayes]

I read the article that Rob refers to and I agree with much/some of it. I do
however believe that rotors can be warped by 1. over torque the wheel bolts,
2 not braking in the rotors/pads by brutalizing them i.e. hard hi speed
stops without allowing rotors to cool down, using the wrong pads for the
intended use. eddie

 

[bill g]

Mark,
Mine were "warped" when I bought the car with 90 miles on it. Took it back
at 12k for the same thing and now at 22k they are pulsating again. And I
generally make it a point to stop lightly and I drive like a geezer. I
think they're just bad design or steel or something.
How'd you talk 'em into fixing the syncro? I've got an intermittent catch
in 1 and 3. I just changed the fluid to Castrol synthetic and that helped
some. I haven't really pursued it with the dealer because they are such
dipsh*ts.
bill g

 

[Ken Gilbert]

i've said it before but it bears repeating:

TORQUE YOUR OWN LUGNUTS TO 65 FT-LBS (in the case of subies).

that's got to be the single biggest reason for warped rotors in the
history of automobiles.

jm2c
ken

 

[Mark]

Disclaimer:
Just for sake of argument, lest assume that I have NOT abused this car
in any way besides normal everyday driving.


Update:
Talked to my local dealer (check the zip code in my e-mail address to
see who i'm talking about) and came to the conclusion they are
useless. They said they turned the rotors "a little" and everything
should be ok now. Oh, they also said they did not replace the pads,
they were OK. (thought you always replace the pads when you turn the
rotors???)

Well, I called Subaru customer-no-service line and was told they do
NOT replace rotors when they are within spec. OK, I kind of
understand that positon but leads to another problem.

Normally, a set of rotors *should* (under normal conditons) last
between 55,000 and 75,000 miles. Usually you turn the rotors when you
have new pads installed. So, a set of front pads *should* last about
30 - 35,000 miles. This usually means you turn the rotors once and
then on the second front pad replacement, you replace the rotors since
not enought surface is left to grind them down again (hence 55 -
75,000 miles).

I feel that since so few miles is on the car, the rotors should have
been replaced (call it a defect?). Subaru calims that since they are
now in spec, keep driving. However now if normal wear and tear
happens, I'll have to replace the rotors at the first front break pad
service, around 36,000 - 40,000 miles, which is outside the warantee.
So, looks like I'll be stuck with the bill for new rotors.

Subaru no-service did say typically the WRX is driven aggressively by
it's owners and this is how *I* did it to my car. I told Subaru that
since this is billed a *performance* car, aggressive driving is
implyed. I then asked "Are you telling me the brakes are sub-standard
for this car?". "No" was the answer. So, I assume they are speaking
out of both sides of their mouth.

Final note:
I'm sure some Subaru/WRX owners will say they have never had a problem
with the brakes so *I* must be the cause of this problem. Well, let's
assume that *your* experiences and *my* experences are different. The
point of my posting,is this anyway for a car company to treat a
customer? Clearly a WRX is a performance car. Meaning it should have
performance parts. If one of the parts is not up to par, then it's a
design problem, not a driver issue when it "breaks".

Come on Subaru... don't play us for a fool.

 

[Mark]

Mark,
Mine were "warped" when I bought the car with 90 miles on it. Took it back
at 12k for the same thing and now at 22k they are pulsating again. And I
generally make it a point to stop lightly and I drive like a geezer. I
think they're just bad design or steel or something.
How'd you talk 'em into fixing the syncro? I've got an intermittent catch
in 1 and 3. I just changed the fluid to Castrol synthetic and that helped
some. I haven't really pursued it with the dealer because they are such
dipsh*ts.
bill g

Bill:
Well, it wasn't easy. ;-) I found on my car the first gear problem
was easily reproduced when 1) The transmission is warmed up to normal
temp (About 10 miles of driving) 2) Gearning down from 3rd -> 2nd,
clutch out then in 2nd -> 1st, clutch out grind!!! 3) reverse then
into 1st. 4) with car in neutral (clutch out) pop clutch in and then
(within a second) go into 1st gear GRIND!!

I made an appointment and took the car in and have them drive it as
soon as I arrived. They found the problem once I told them these 4
steps. They then called Subaru and was told to replace the 1st gear
syncro. After 4 days in the shop, it's ready and I'll pick it up after
work. I'll report back tomorrow if this fixes the issue.

My suggestion to you is find a easy way to reproduce the problem and
then ride along with the mechanic and show him what to look for.

As for the dipsh*ts, I totally agree with you. (Getting of subject,
might be better to open a new post...)

I'm also a pilot and have worked around airplanes for MANY years.
Recently I've been a mataince office for several planes. My job is to
keep them airworthy and in good shape. In the course of this job,
I've became friends with a local A&P mechanic. Let me tell you these
guys are the best. When I reported a problem, they used that word
auto mechanics never heard of "DIAGNOSE"! Aircraft mechinics ass is on
the line if they don't fix a problem correctly. On the other hand, I
would guess 95% of todays auto mechanics are useless mind numb robots.
I'm sure this will envoke a flame war, and I know there are some
great auto mechanics but they are few and far between. If someone
dosen't do their job, then I'll stick to their ass till they do it
correctly. I guess this is why I'm so insistant on getting this fixed
properly.

I used to own a Dodge and a local small dealership had one of the best
service shops I've ever seen. These guys uses the brain God gave them
and FIX the issue. Too bad they don't work on Subaru's.....

 

[Mark]

(e-mail address removed) (Mark) wrote in message >
Warped rotors are a myth. Go to this web site and read all about it:
www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

I did read this the other day. In some aspects I think it's accurate.
I think when I use the term *Warp* I mean a physical warpage of the
metal rotor. If the metal rotor was physicially warped, you could lay
it down on a flat table and see edges not in contact when the table. I
would image that if a disk was physicially warped, it would damnaged
the calipers by shaking them. This vibration would lead to
shaking/pulsating in the stearing wheel.

With this said, how could such a thick metal disk get warped this
easily? You would think the tolorances would be enough to componsate
for the heat build up even during the most agressive braking.

 

[Dan Duncan]

Using this same line of stupid thinking... If I sold a NEW computer to
a cusomter and after a few weeks they called and said it won't boot
up, what do you think the cusomter would think (and tell his friends)
if I replied "Wow, you should be happy it lasted that long. I had
another cusotmer that bought a new computer from me and it quit
working after 5 days!!! I wouldn't complain!".

This is normal behavior for Windows.

-DanD

 

[Mark]

i've said it before but it bears repeating:

TORQUE YOUR OWN LUGNUTS TO 65 FT-LBS (in the case of subies).

that's got to be the single biggest reason for warped rotors in the
history of automobiles.

jm2c
ken

I agree. I got the car back this evening and checked the torque. It
took everything to break the lugnuts off the car. It's amazing how
little pressure it takes (70 Ft. Lbs) to properly tighten them.

The brakes now feel a little soft. But since the rotors were just
turned (they did NOT replace the pads), i'm going to wait a little bit
to see if it improves.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[SuperPoo]

Warped discs are a myth-- an unscientific attempt explain an event. My WRX
developed a brake pulsation at 16k-- put on new pads went through a proper
break-in and voila no more pulsation. If you do not believe www.stoptech.com
(as another poster suggested) try http://www.ifriction.com/reports102.htm

Steve