Oil in a 150K Outback

[RAJP53]

I have a 1996 Outback with 150,000 miles. What kind of oil should I be putting
in it? I live in NY and average 80 miles a day. Thanks.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I have a 1996 Outback with 150,000 miles. What kind of oil should I be putting

Hi,

If the engine has little appreciable oil consumption, and oil pressure
is sufficient (does the car have a pressure gauge?) I'd stick with
whatever the book recommends. If you don't have the book, go to
www.subaru.com for recommendations. I'd go for something at the heavier
end of the spectrum for summer use.

OTOH, if your car shows some of its miles, you might want to go a little
heavier than what the book calls for. I've had good luck with Chevron
Delo 400 15W-40 in mine. It actually holds oil pressure in SoCal (100+
deg F) summer weather than some of the 20W-50s that I've used in the
past--we don't really have "winter" where I am, so I'm concerned with
hot performance much more than cold. Don't know if the Chevron's
available on the East Coast. If not, Mobil has Delvac and Shell has
Rotella in the same weight. All of these 15W-40s were originally
designed for diesel use, but have gasoline ratings, too. For the
naysayers who will warn against using these oils in a gasoline engine
(there are some), I'll only say my engine's got 336k miles and is doing
just fine.

You're gonna get as many opinions on which oil (brand, weight, type) to
use as you receive answers, so you've gotta experiment a little to see
what works best for you.

Good luck,

Rick

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

The only thing I could add to Rick's post is, if your car is burning a
little oil and you find yourself topping off the oil regularly DO NOT be
tempted to think "Well, I've been putting oil in more often so I can go
longer between oil changes". In an engine with worn piston rings (and
other componenets) you get increased 'blow-by'. One thing this causes is
gasoline fumes from the compression stroke getting into the oil reducing
it's effective viscosity. Keep up the maintainence schedule to get the
contaminated oil out.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[UserEddie214]

Rick:

I'll only say my engine's got 336k miles
and is doing just fine.

Wow!

Did you use 15w-40 from the beginning?
Any additives in the oil, or perhaps gas?

Your milage is remarkable!

How frequently did you do oil changes?
Any particular oil filter brand? Also, is your
engine the 2.5l or 2.2l, or some other.

I am asking all these questions because I have
a fairly new Impreza 2.2L, barely broken-in, and
was thinking whether I should use synthetic, or
semi-synthetic. The "diesel-type" option sounds
interesting (surely these are excellent quality oils).

I have used mineral Valvoline 10w-30, so far.

s.z.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Wow!

Hi,

Let's see if I can answer all your questions... sorry if it turns into a
ramble!

I bought this car with 209k miles on it. It's a '90 Loyale with a 1.8l,
non-turbo, a 4wd, 5spd wagon. The guy who had it before me was a little
less than religious with some of his maintenance. He drove it on a lot
of dirt roads, and it burned oil at about 1 qt/1200-1400 miles. Since it
doesn't smoke, and passes smog testing ok, I've always assumed this to
be a function of dead valve seals, and maybe valve guide wear cuz of the
gobs of fine dust the car was breathing all the time. PCV system's been
checked, valve replaced at regular intervals and all, so I'm sticking
with the worn seals idea.

I used several brands and types of oil when I first got the car. I've
used Castrol GTX for years, so I started with it, in 10W-30 (book
recommendation.) Oil pressure ran at the bare minimum (according to the
gauge and book figures) and that kinda bothered me. Next I tried 10W-40,
20W-50 in Castrol, and Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic. Then someone here on
the group, an auto shop instructor, suggested Delo 400. I tried it and
have been using it since, almost 100k miles.

Oil pressure with the Delo 400 is better than other brands except the
Mobil 1, oil consumption has remained pretty predictable at 1 qt/1200
miles regardless of conditions. Even though the "diesel" oils are
supposed to clean somewhat better than gasoline oils, I've added Rislone
about every 10k miles to help quiet the famous valve tapping noises.
About 20k miles ago, I switched over to Marvel Mystery Oil at each oil
change, using Bill Putney's advice. It's done a better job of quieting
the valves, and judging by how quickly the oil turns black since
starting to use it, there's still a lot of crud in the engine that't
being cleaned out.

Oil filters and change intervals: Subies seem to be more particular
about filters than other cars I've owned or serviced. I've had the best
luck with Subie OEM filters, though I use Purolator (they make the Subie
filter) and NAPA Gold as backups if I can't get to the Subie dealer.
Some will advise against using the orange Fram filters: I won't condemn
Fram across the board, since I've used their filters with no problems in
other cars, but will agree they're probably not the best choice for a
Subie. I TRY to adhere to 3,000 mile change intervals, but because of my
driving patterns, a couple of changes may go 4500-5000 miles each year.
I don't worry too much about that, cuz those particular miles are
usually in 5-6 week intervals.

Now a couple of things have changed since my car was built which might
affect your choices. On mine, 5W-30 oil was only recommended in winter,
and there's a warning about not using it for extended high-spd driving.
And somewhere I found a TSB or other letter from SOA that said Subaru
does NOT recommend synthetic oil in my car.

Today, I believe Subaru's basic oil recommendation is a 5W-30, with
10W-30 as an alternative "summer" recommendation. I don't know if they
recommend anything heavier, or what their position on synthetics is
today. Lots of people are using them in newer engines, and most report
pretty good results. While the change intervals outside the US are
increasing, ours here are still pretty much the old 3000 mile standard
for "severe" service, which, when you read the book, consists of driving
the car under the conditions most of us see every day. Some will claim
that's a marketing trick to sell more oil. I won't argue that, but I
also know we don't always get the best oil in the world here in the
States, so the shorter change intervals just seem to be cheap insurance
to me. Regardless of oil choice, you need to adhere to the book change
intervals while you're under warranty, which might make synthetics a
less economically viable choice, depending on your budget and attitudes
toward these things!

So if I were you, I'd probably not put the heavier "diesel" oils in your
car at this time. They won't HURT anything, but you may find fuel
economy actually drops since they're heavier than what a new engine's
designed for, and if you live somewhere that has a REAL winter, you
might experience some starting problems. But for a high mileage engine,
they seem to work well. You could always try one of the "diesel" oils
for one or two change intervals and keep good records to see if there's
any downside in fuel economy, too. If so, go back to lighter oil--if
not, make your choice whichever way you wish.

Sorry to go on and on, but hope this helps! Just remember these are only
one person's experience with one car, so YMMV!

Rick

 

[UserEddie214]

Rick:

I bought this car with 209k miles on it. It's a '90 Loyale
with a 1.8l, non-turbo, a 4wd, 5spd wagon.
(...)

I used several brands and types of oil when I first got
the car. I've used Castrol GTX for years, so I started
with it, in 10W-30 (book recommendation.) Oil pressure
ran at the bare minimum (according to the gauge and book >figures) and that

kinda bothered me. Next I tried 10W-40,

20W-50 in Castrol, and Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic. Then >someone here on the

group, an auto shop instructor,

suggested Delo 400. I tried it and have been using it since, >almost 100k

miles.

Thanks for the reply Rick.

I am in Reno, where we have cold winters and probably
15w-40 is not the way to go with a low milage car, but
I have lived in Las Vegas for years and had good results
with 20w-50 Castrol, and Valvoline straight 40- for
summer. This was with a GM 2.8 V6 engine that has
made so far 170k- not bad for a 1989 GM product.

Oil pressure with the Delo 400 is better than other brands >except the Mobil

1, oil consumption has remained pretty >predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles
regardless of conditions.

Even though the "diesel" oils are supposed to clean
somewhat better than gasoline oils, I've added Rislone
about every 10k miles to help quiet the famous valve
tapping noises. About 20k miles ago, I switched over to
Marvel Mystery Oil at each oil change, using Bill Putney's >advice. It's done

a better job of quieting the valves, and

judging by how quickly the oil turns black since
starting to use it, there's still a lot of crud in the engine that't
being cleaned out.

I use MMO occasionally in the gas, usually small amounts.
Helps keep things clean. I believe in two other products: Berrymans B12
Chemtool- this is an excellent and
inexpensive product for cleaning injectors. Walmart
has it for only $2.37 a bottle. It is very strong though,
works great on GM cars, but never tried it on anything
else. I also believe in Restore Engine Restorer, used it
several times and seems to do a good job in restoring/
evening out compression, so the engine runs smoother
and regains some lost power.

Oil filters and change intervals: Subies seem to be more >particular about

filters than other cars I've owned or serviced. >I've had the best luck with
Subie OEM filters, though I use >Purolator (they make the Subie filter) and
NAPA Gold as >backups if I can't get to the Subie dealer. Some will advise

against using the orange Fram filters: I won't condemn
Fram across the board, since I've used their filters with no >problems in

other cars, but will agree they're probably not

the best choice for a Subie. I TRY to adhere to 3,000 mile >change intervals,

but because of my driving patterns, a

couple of changes may go 4500-5000 miles each year.
I don't worry too much about that, cuz those particular
miles are usually in 5-6 week intervals.

Now a couple of things have changed since my car was
built which might affect your choices. On mine, 5W-30
oil was only recommended in winter, and there's a warning >about not using it for extended high-spd driving.
And somewhere I found a TSB or other letter from SOA that >said Subaru does

NOT recommend synthetic oil in my car.

Today, I believe Subaru's basic oil recommendation is
a 5W-30, with 10W-30 as an alternative "summer" >recommendation. I don't know

if they recommend anything >heavier, or what their position on synthetics is

today.

My 2000 Impreza manual recommends heavier
oils for extreme weather conditions or for towing.

Lots of people are using them in newer engines, and most >report pretty good

results. While the change intervals outside >the US are increasing, ours here
are still pretty much the old >3000 mile standard for "severe" service, which,
when you read >the book, consists of driving the car under the conditions most

of us see every day. Some will claim that's a marketing trick to >sell more

oil. I won't argue that, but I also know we don't >always get the best oil in
the world here in the

States, so the shorter change intervals just seem to be cheap >insurance to

me. Regardless of oil choice, you need to adhere

to the book change intervals while you're under warranty, >which might make

synthetics a less economically viable choice, >depending on your budget and
attitudes toward these things!

So if I were you, I'd probably not put the heavier "diesel"
oils in your car at this time. They won't HURT anything, but >you may find

fuel economy actually drops since they're

heavier than what a new engine's designed for, and if you
live somewhere that has a REAL winter, you might
experience some starting problems. But for a high mileage >engine, they seem

to work well. You could always try one of >the "diesel" oils for one or two
change intervals and keep good >records to see if there's any downside in fuel
economy, too. If >so, go back to lighter oil--if not, make your choice
whichever >way you wish.

Sorry to go on and on, but hope this helps! Just remember
these are only one person's experience with one car, so >YMMV!

Thanks, it is always a good thing to learn what others
are doing, and share some information in the process.
I wish you plenty more miles on your Subie! Don't forget
to report back when you hit the 400k mark.

s.z.

 

[Rick Courtright]

else. I also believe in Restore Engine Restorer, used it
several times and seems to do a good job in restoring/
evening out compression, so the engine runs smoother
and regains some lost power.

Hi,

I've seen Restore advertised for years, but I think you're the first
person I've found who's actually used it. I read a can at the parts
store once, and it looked like you are supposed to use it with each oil
change.

Is that how you've used it, or did you put it in once, go a few changes,
then use it again? Results in the ads, of course, look pretty
impressive, but it's always good to hear from folks who've got ~real
life~ experience!

Thanks!

Rick

 

[Bill Putney]

You should leave a line between the quote and what you reply.

This thread is of great interest for me... But I've had a real hard time
understanding who answers to what in that post. Thanks!

The solution lies in your knowing how to read the successive posts - no
extra lines are necessary to decipher who said what.

The clues are in the '>' marks. If C is responding to B who responded
to A, then you will see formating like this:

[whatever A wrote]

[whatever B wrote]

[whatever C wrote]

It's generally encouraged for successive posters to delete previous
posts except for what he/she is directly responding to (also optionally
leaving in what may be needed from previous posts for context).

UserEddie did something else very useful - and that is interleaving his
comments with the various comments that he is replying to (again - you
can distinguish his remarks from what he is responding to by the fact
that there are no '>' marks before his lines of comment). That keeps
things in immediate context so you don't have to search around in the
entire previous post to figure out what he is commenting on

Things do get confusing when some people in a given thread top post and
others bottom post - but that's going to happen no matter how much
people complain about top posters. The key to knowing who said what and
in what order will **always** be the '>' marks.

Now that you know the "code", try reading back thru and see if things
make more sense.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[thierry]

Bill Putney, 7/8/03 20:32 :

Now that you know the "code", try reading back thru and see if things
make more sense.

I master the code. Have you read the post yourself? There are ">" digged
right in the paragraph so the color codes get mixed up.

Now I see that this is most probably because of line wraps he was caught
with, so you have to read the whole thing to see what he was answering to.

Oil pressure with the Delo 400 is better than other brands >except the Mobil

1, oil consumption has remained pretty >predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles
regardless of conditions.
</Example>

Who answers what here? No one...

The post needed a clean up before sending... And I definitely needed a
coffee break at that time.
Sorry for being so picky. I just had a hard time reading through.

 

[UserEddie214]

Rick:

Hi,

I've seen Restore advertised for years, but I think
you're the first person I've found who's actually
used it. I read a can at the parts store once, and it
looked like you are supposed to use it with each oil
change.

Is that how you've used it, or did you put it in once,
go a few changes, then use it again?

I"ve used it both ways and can say that
there is a definitive cumulative effect.

If you use it consequtively, say several oil
changes in a row, the effect is greater and
lasts longer. By that I mean you can go one
oil change, or perhaps even two, without
the Restorer and still feel a difference.

My experience is with use in an engine that
has relatively good compression, overall, but
runs a bit rough due to uneven compression
among cylinders (one cylinder is particularly
problematic). It uses very little oil without
the Restorer and nearly none with it.

Regards,
s.z.

ps. to the guy that had problems reading my
reply: Sorry, my browser is set rather narrow
and it breaks the quoted text line if too long.
I did leave empty lines before and after replies.

 

[Bill Putney]

Bill Putney, 7/8/03 20:32 :


I master the code. Have you read the post yourself? There are ">" digged
right in the paragraph so the color codes get mixed up.

And I wouldn't expect that to be manually cleaned up. The fact is you
can still fairly easily distinguish UserEddie's comments from the
previous poster's by the total lack of '>' marks on UserEddie's lines.

Now I see that this is most probably because of line wraps he was caught
with, so you have to read the whole thing to see what he was answering to.

Yep - not much that could be done about that other than manually editing
every line, but again, all the visual clues that are needed are there.

1, oil consumption has remained pretty >predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles
regardless of conditions.
</Example>

Who answers what here? No one...
OK

The post needed a clean up before sending...

I've seen a lot worse - such as people leaving all previous 150 lines of
thread dialogue with no trimming, and a one line comment at the very end
(or at the very beginning depending on top/bottom posting). I know I
can get careless if I'm running against the clock in order not to be
late for work - it's either make the post or not make the post because
there's not time to really clean it up.

And I definitely needed a
coffee break at that time.
Sorry for being so picky. I just had a hard time reading through.

Well I certainly hope you feel better! 8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[thierry]

Winter... Summer...
Here in Montreal, Qc, Canada we have temperatures dropping to minus 31F in
winter and going up to 95F in the summer... Quite a range.

I'd like to know what oil I should put into my 95 Legacy Wagon this summer
until the cold weather comes. Subaru recommends 5w30 always. Is that crazy
with such a temperature range?

Thanks!

 

[uglymoney]

My 2000 Forester manual call for 5w30 up to ~ 100 F and 1030 from ~40 up. I
guess I would use 5w30 winter and if you do alot of 95 F driving,like trips
then go 1030. I use Mobil 1 as it flows nicely at -40 F. Ed

I have been using 0w-30 in the winter, and I think I used it
last summer. This summer I went with 5w-30 since I couldn't
find any Mobil 1 0W.

nate

 

[Rick Courtright]

until the cold weather comes. Subaru recommends 5w30 always. Is that crazy
with such a temperature range?

Hi,

I think a lot depends on your engine... as I was describing to
UserEddie, a nice tight engine MAY see some drop in fuel economy if one
uses too heavy an oil for the conditions. OTOH, I've always been a bit
paranoid about oil pressure (spun a bearing in a '61 MGA way back when
and it made an impression???) and like to go on the heavier side, so I'd
personally be inclined to use the 10W-30 (if using dino oil) from late
spring into early fall given the temps you mention. Here where I am in
SoCal, there are summer days when 95 deg F seems COOL. I feel for the
engines...

OTOH, a friend uses 5W-30 Mobil 1 year round in a V-10 Ford Super Duty
pickup, and even when we load it up pretty well and take it to the
desert during the summer, there's no apparent change in oil pressure or
consumption, so that might be a good choice, too!

Best of luck!

Rick

 

[Bill Putney]

...Here in Montreal, Qc, Canada we have temperatures dropping to minus 31F in
winter and going up to 95F in the summer... Quite a range.

I'd like to know what oil I should put into my 95 Legacy Wagon this summer
until the cold weather comes. Subaru recommends 5w30 always. Is that crazy
with such a temperature range?...

If you don't mind one more opinion (but it isn't much different than the
advice already offered): I wouldn't use 5W-30 in conventional oil at any
time, especially in warmer weather - too many compromises (viscosity
extenders) to get the '5W' part of the spec. If you're using a good
synthetic, then no problem in using 5W-30 all year around as you don't
have the same compromises in the oil formulation.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Jim Stewart]

If you don't mind one more opinion (but it isn't much different than the
advice already offered): I wouldn't use 5W-30 in conventional oil at any
time, especially in warmer weather - too many compromises (viscosity
extenders) to get the '5W' part of the spec. If you're using a good
synthetic, then no problem in using 5W-30 all year around as you don't
have the same compromises in the oil formulation.

I tried 2 or 3 different weights of synthetic when I first
got my '99 Legacy Outback and I found that Mobil 1 15W-30,
always kept topped up, reduced the warmup valve clatter to
a minimum. I suspect that the 0W and 5W stuff is largely
a gimmic to improve EPA mileage. I admit that I'm an old
fart and have an irrational suspicion against water-thin
oils.

 

[Rick Courtright]

a minimum. I suspect that the 0W and 5W stuff is largely
a gimmic to improve EPA mileage. I admit that I'm an old
fart and have an irrational suspicion against water-thin

Jim

From one OF to another... I'm not sure you're off base! A couple of
years ago, the Castrol website mentioned pretty much the same thing: the
light oils are spec'ed for fuel economy, but they suggested heavier oils
would give better overall protection. I noticed last time I visited the
site this "info" or "advice" was absent. Still, with dino oils, I think
you, Bill and I are of the same mind!

Rick

 

[Bill Putney]

I tried 2 or 3 different weights of synthetic when I first
got my '99 Legacy Outback and I found that Mobil 1 15W-30,
always kept topped up, reduced the warmup valve clatter to
a minimum. I suspect that the 0W and 5W stuff is largely
a gimmic to improve EPA mileage. I admit that I'm an old
fart and have an irrational suspicion against water-thin
oils.

I also buy into your old fart conspiracy theory. Witness the fact that,
for example, in vehicles that FoMoCo specs. 5W-30 oil for in the U.S.,
they spec. 10W-30 oil in essentially the same engines and vehicles in
essentially the same climates in Europe. The difference? We have CAFE
numbers here.

Sacrifice engine longevity (nothing catastrophic, mind you, but finite
nonetheless) for miniscule fuel mileage number gains

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Rick Courtright]

There is no use to put a thick oil into an engine if it won't flow
though. It would be pretty stupid to use 15w50 even in "warm"
winters of nothern california. Don't you think?

Agreed... to a point! As I mentioned in one or more of my earlier posts,
a lot depends on your engine. I personally would have no problem with a
15W-50 (or the 15W-40 I run in my car) in NorCal winters, assuming my
driving pattern was the same as it is in SoCal: fire up the garaged car,
drive 70 miles thru heavy traffic, then turn around and repeat the
scenario a couple of hours later coming home.

OTOH, if I were to use my sister's pattern (she's up in your part of the
state) where the car may have sat outside all night, and she's going 3/4
of a mile to the post office and back, then parks the car for several
hours, I'd be inclined to go much lighter. Assuming I'm not losing
pressure or increasing oil consumption by going too light for the
condition of the particular engine (remember, mine's got over a third of
a million miles, so it's hardly a competitor in the "tightness"
department with even a 150k engine, let alone one still under warranty!)

Today there are way too many variables to make the choices as easy as
they were back in the days when you ran 20, or even 10 weight, oil in
the winter, 30 in the summer. Until the engine started burning oil, then
you might switch to 40 in the summer. Some of the OF's here probably
remember those days. Now, with engines being built so much tighter than
even 20 years ago, you want to stay as light as you can as long as you
can... being an oil engineer today sounds like a great way to get gray
hair and an ulcer to me!

Having said that per recent testing by MCN Mobil 1 15w50
seemed to deteriorate slower than Mobil 1 5w30 in most of their tests.
Dunno if that applies to the car engines though.

That's not surprising, since multi-grades supposedly start as
lightweight oils with a variety of "magic juice" added to achieve the
desired characteristics over their life expectancies. As others have
mentioned in past oil discussions, some grade ranges take a lot more in
the additive package than others, so it wouldn't surprise me they break
down faster.

As to the engines, Castrol hinted in not too subtle terms a couple of
years ago the engine is going right along with the oil--the faster the
oil breaks down, the faster the engine will wear. Surely a
generality--definitely hard to prove--and maybe that's why they don't
say so any more on their website!

Glad your summer's not too hot yet--I think we're making up for you down
here. Save us some water, eh?

Rick