J
JohnO
Can you imagine being on this road?
-John O
-John O
N
Nick Danger
JohnO said:
What amazes me is that there were people standing around out on the road. If
I were there, I would have been up on the rooftop where the guy with the
video camera was. I wonder how long it took before the fire truck got
nailed.
I've been in ice storms where the salt/sand spreaders had to drive in
reverse. Not even a Subaru with studded snow tires can get you through that
stuff. I just watched the show from a safe distance.
A
aschlemm
JohnO said:
If the road was sheeted over with ice I don't think having an AWD Subaru
would have helped much. I'm over on the eastside outside Seattle and with
the ice I saw a Subaru go spinning down an icy covered road. In the first
snow we had in the Seattle area back in November I lost count though of the
number of RWD BMWs and Mercedes which littered the roadside.
I have a Legacy sedan and I took it slow and easy with all of the ice around
Seattle. AWD helps but it doesn't allow me to defy the laws of physics when
it comes to driving and stopping in snowy or icy conditions.
Tony
S
strchild
Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
with each other. )-; They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
machines able to turn the Californian "I don't know how to 4WD but I have
one" driver into a good driver (no offense to the good Cali drivers). I saw
way too much overconfidence out there from our fellow Soob drivers. I vote
for better mass transit, as nobody here knows how to drive very well! Oh,
and can some parents get their kids out of the streets where cars are still
driving as their sleds don't mix well with cars!
~Brian
with each other. )-; They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
machines able to turn the Californian "I don't know how to 4WD but I have
one" driver into a good driver (no offense to the good Cali drivers). I saw
way too much overconfidence out there from our fellow Soob drivers. I vote
for better mass transit, as nobody here knows how to drive very well! Oh,
and can some parents get their kids out of the streets where cars are still
driving as their sleds don't mix well with cars!
~Brian
I
isquat
strchild said:
A question from a clueless californian: do dedicated studless snow
tires help
on ice? Can't stud the tires here. Besides a californian with studs
would
look stupid, don't you think?
S
strchild
In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires. Noisy, and really only
beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must
drive under those conditions you might just as well chain up, plus
deceptively slippery on regular and wet pavement,. I'm sure others have
their own opinion, but I feel the trade-offs outweigh the benefits, plus how
often are they needed in this area? Only road I couldn't traverse this last
bit of ice and snow with my all-season tires, dedicated studs would have
been equally as useless. Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to
say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.
Just my opinion though. (-;
~Brian
beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must
drive under those conditions you might just as well chain up, plus
deceptively slippery on regular and wet pavement,. I'm sure others have
their own opinion, but I feel the trade-offs outweigh the benefits, plus how
often are they needed in this area? Only road I couldn't traverse this last
bit of ice and snow with my all-season tires, dedicated studs would have
been equally as useless. Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to
say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.
Just my opinion though. (-;
~Brian
Y
y_p_w
First thing - studded tires aren't legal in California. I'm pretty
sure true studless snow tires will make things better but don't
perform miracles. The Tire Rack did some testing on an ice rink with
everything from a true studless ice tire to a summer tire that was
downright scary. It's still not going to make a performance car
handle as well as a land yacht in dry conditions. There needs to
be a good deal of respect that winter conditions are still challenging,
even with dedicated winter tires. What really should work well on
ice are the "Z" type chains. Unlike radial chains, they're designed
such that part of the chain is contacting the surface at all times.
People still need to drive slowly.
<http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=80>
BTW - I heard studs aren't legal in Minnesota. Go fig.
Y
y_p_w
strchild said:
I bought a bag of kitty litter the last time I was up in the Sierras,
just in case I needed it to get myself or anyone moving. Supposedly
works wonders but then again, I don't think I can sprinkle it for
an entire 6 mile trip.
I've driven in the snow and ice. From the video, it looked like
everyone gave way too much gas and got enough traction to get
momentum, but not enough to control the car. I learned quickly
that you need to brake gently (and very early) the first time I
skidded in a parking lot in South Lake Tahoe. Luckily it was just
five feet and I got a better feel for steering braking on ice.
S
strchild
You get kinda used to the ice when you do a 40 mile paper route in it at
1000' elevation and up. (-; 1st gear is your friend, works a bit like
anti-lock breaks. It's funny to watch your spedometer bottom out instantly
when your front tires lock up and slide. Can kinda use it as an indicator
for slippage, at which point, you either let off the breaks, or well, go
wherever the car is going to go, and that's probably not where you're
steering. Course, I'm not talking anti-lock breaks so, don't just take my
word for it, learn how your own car will react in the slick conditions
before you go out to play. I learned early during the first three months I
was driving, in a heavy, Plymouth Volarie, with a nice 318 V8 and rear wheel
drive. Amazing how much speed you pick up, going down a steep, iced over
hill, but I never did wreck the thing for the bad weather. (-;
I agree about the video. I say, try 1st gear, and noooooo gas at all.
Getting somewhere late is better than wrecking the car and not getting
anywhere. Wonder how many of those vehicles had anti-lock breaks, but then
how well do wheels not lock-up when they are sliding sideways? (-;
~Brian
1000' elevation and up. (-; 1st gear is your friend, works a bit like
anti-lock breaks. It's funny to watch your spedometer bottom out instantly
when your front tires lock up and slide. Can kinda use it as an indicator
for slippage, at which point, you either let off the breaks, or well, go
wherever the car is going to go, and that's probably not where you're
steering. Course, I'm not talking anti-lock breaks so, don't just take my
word for it, learn how your own car will react in the slick conditions
before you go out to play. I learned early during the first three months I
was driving, in a heavy, Plymouth Volarie, with a nice 318 V8 and rear wheel
drive. Amazing how much speed you pick up, going down a steep, iced over
hill, but I never did wreck the thing for the bad weather. (-;
I agree about the video. I say, try 1st gear, and noooooo gas at all.
Getting somewhere late is better than wrecking the car and not getting
anywhere. Wonder how many of those vehicles had anti-lock breaks, but then
how well do wheels not lock-up when they are sliding sideways? (-;
~Brian
K
KLS
I suspect most of these sliding idiots also were standing on their
brake pedals, which doesn't help improve traction once it's lost.
N
nobody >
No real help with dedicated ice treads, they do grip a 'little' bit
better on ice but it wouldn't have helped in the stuff in that video.
The only solution there would have been chains on all 4 corners and even
then it would have been dicey. There's no way to predict what the idjits
are going to do, witness the silver Lexus(?) SUV showing their foot into
it for a 7(+) point carom shot.
Depends on which leather bar you go to, 'big boy' ;}
J
Jim Stewart
strchild said:
Well said Brian.
Engineering can't repeal the laws of physics.
S
S
Hi Brian, All!
I run my old GL in a "studded-tire" class, in our winter ice
rally-cross series. They make a huge difference, probably 15- 20
seconds on a 90-100 second course, vs the "bare-tire" guys on fresh
Blizzaks. They enable a savvy driver to start, initiate turns, and
(most importantly) stop with authority. Chains are probably marginally
better on ice (if you can stand the vibration), but where they really
shine is in deep snow (or mud, FWIW). Dedicated ice tires are quite
good when new, but still not as positive as studs. Once the treated
rubber is gone, they are no better than regular all-seasons
Nothing will do much good, however, if the driver doesn't know how to
work the car (all too common, alas); simply mashing harder on the
brake pedal during a slide just isn't gonna help matters.
And you're quite right; studs, especially fresh ones, do reduce the
tires ultimate grip somewhat on dry pavement. One more factor for the
equation. I'm sure chains have the same effect, but with chains
mounted, you're unlikely to go fast enough for it to be a concern.
I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps
because they do offer at least _some_ grip to work with.
I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the
studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep,
the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge
The
missus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the
fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well
past in the spring.
ByeBye! S.
PS: Last event, we had someone show up in an "exhibition class" WRX
rally car set up with screws in his tires, similar to the setup the
motorcycle ice racers use. Couldn't believe how fast he was going, and
with this HUGE grin . . . obviously having _way_ too much fun.
Next season . . .
ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
I run my old GL in a "studded-tire" class, in our winter ice
rally-cross series. They make a huge difference, probably 15- 20
seconds on a 90-100 second course, vs the "bare-tire" guys on fresh
Blizzaks. They enable a savvy driver to start, initiate turns, and
(most importantly) stop with authority. Chains are probably marginally
better on ice (if you can stand the vibration), but where they really
shine is in deep snow (or mud, FWIW). Dedicated ice tires are quite
good when new, but still not as positive as studs. Once the treated
rubber is gone, they are no better than regular all-seasons
Nothing will do much good, however, if the driver doesn't know how to
work the car (all too common, alas); simply mashing harder on the
brake pedal during a slide just isn't gonna help matters.
And you're quite right; studs, especially fresh ones, do reduce the
tires ultimate grip somewhat on dry pavement. One more factor for the
equation. I'm sure chains have the same effect, but with chains
mounted, you're unlikely to go fast enough for it to be a concern.
I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps
because they do offer at least _some_ grip to work with.
I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the
studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep,
the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge
Themissus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the
fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well
past in the spring.
ByeBye! S.
PS: Last event, we had someone show up in an "exhibition class" WRX
rally car set up with screws in his tires, similar to the setup the
motorcycle ice racers use. Couldn't believe how fast he was going, and
with this HUGE grin . . . obviously having _way_ too much fun.
Next season . . .
ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
Y
y_p_w
I wasn't braking hard, but I found that ABS just didn't do that much
when I started sliding in snow-covered ice. In dry/wet conditions,
I've never really felt ABS engaging except for panic braking - usually
with pedal to the floor.
I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the
studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep,
the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge
missus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the
fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well
past in the spring.
Well - what kind of chains do you use? I hear the diagonal type
chains work better and look to be easier to install with the three
connection points (and final connection on the top where there
should be more room to work with). Frankly it looks like the
same connection setup could be applied to a ladder chain.
I went through my 2004 WRX manual, and it recommends only
installing chains on the front. However - I've read enough about
winter driving to see recommendations that chains in front on an
AWD/4WD vehicle could lead to a spinout if the rear tires break
loose and the front tires have traction.
You're certainly right about speed and chains. I was driving up
I-80 to Reno last winter. Some nuts were driving 40 MPH in
falling snow with chains on; they were lucky they didn't come
off. I've been around the Lake Tahoe area and see the odd chain
here or there that ran away from its owner. Not before damaging
a wheel well, tire, and/or paint job, no doubt.
S
strchild
S said:
Sounds like an absolute blast, but I don't really wanna drive six hours in a
winter ready car to find such a sporting event. But I might, if they had
one around here... I'm not familiar with the motorcycle ice racing, but the
screws in the tires sound hilarious. (-; Would love to do up a set for my
XT6, as I ain't got no WRX, but probably wouldn't, as I would rather muck up
my Impreza since it seems easier to get replacement parts for.
Never driven a car with anti-lock breaks before. I was under the impression
they always function when breaking. Is that not the case?
One handy thing I've noticed, when my front wheels begin to slip, the spedo
dives to zip, nomatter the speed I'm still moving forward. Helps me keep my
downshifting proportional to my breaking when I can't hear the tires
slipping or the car going off of center, so I don't pull something stupid
and wind up like the folks in the videos. ... and no, I don't ignore the
road ahead to watch the spedo, hehe. But it's nice to have an idea what the
car is doing and when. (-;
~Brian
Y
y_p_w
strchild said:
"Brakes" and "braking", please. I don't get worked up over
most spelling errors or typos, but that's the one common
spelling error that drives me nuts. Now that I'm off that
soapbox......
Anti-lock braking systems don't engage every time the brakes
are used. They sense when the wheels have locked up while
the brakes are engaged, and repeatedly apply and release
pressure about 10 times a second (intervals depend on the
individual system). Slamming the brakes on dry pavement will
usually activate ABS. ABS might engage under less brake
pedal force if the pavement is wet. If ABS engages, the
driver will feel a rapid pulsation on the brake pedal as
well as a loud groaning noise from the ABS pump cycling.
When it doesn't engage, the braking system should feel just
like any other non ABS brake system.
S
strchild
y_p_w said:
Sorry, my apologies. The spelling didn't dawn on me until you pointed it
out! (-;
Thanks for the info about the anti-lock "brakes"! Sounds somewhat
distracting to me, but I suppose they do their job, and they're good for the
pedal mashers out there.
~Brian
E
Ed
strchild said:
And if you have ABS and try to pump the pedal when you hit slick
conditions is a recipe for a spin.
C
CompUser
@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
(e-mail address removed) says...
Why is that?
(e-mail address removed) says...
Why is that?
E
Ed
CompUser said:
I was listening to a guy talking about this on the radio last weekend.
He grew up in the Northeast and learned how to drive 4WD and pumping his
brakes. He now lives in Colorado and was driving with the first car he
has ever owned with AWD, traction control, and ABS. He found out that by
pumping his brakes all he did was fight the traction and ABS systems and
wound up going into a slow spin...
Why? I'm guessing he wound up causing the traction control system to
speed up the wheels on one side and slow 'em down on the other.