Loads of Questions for Suby fans....might get quite a discussion going!

[Timmy]

Hello everyone, I have been scanning the posts in this NG for the past
three hours and I am confident the questions I have will get answered
(at least give me some food for thought) by some knowledgeable Subaru
fans...

I am moving to the Vancouver area after several years abroad and will
be looking for a new car as well. I will be living and working in the
city during the week, but I forsee many weekend jaunts into the great
outdoors and communte to Whistler EVERY weekend during the
Ski/Snowboard season.

At the moment, I am considering the following options (in no particular order)

1. Audi A3
2. Audi A3 Quattro
3. Subaru Outback
4. Subaru Legacy
5. Subaru Legacy Wagon
6. Subaru Impreza Wagon
8. Audi A4 Sedan
9. Audi A4 Wagon
7. Audi A4 Quattro Sedan
8. Audi A4 Quatto Wagon
9. VW GTI

Becuase I plan on driving in some adverse mountian weather, AWD is a
feature I require. I have not had a chance to try ANY of these cars
yet, as I am still on the road, but I would like to get some feedback
on these choices. Basically, I have kind of grouped these choices into
groups along these lines.

1. GTI-A3-Impreza Wagon
2. Legacy-A4
3. Outback-Legacy Wagon-A4 Wagon

I am espcially looking forward to hearing people's thought on the
Outback Vs. Legacy Wagon. What are some of the major differences?
Also, does anyone else consider the Impreza Wagon to be able to compete
with the A3? I would LOVE it if the VW came with an AWD system, but
after hearing some pretty bad things about VW reliability, I might have
to rethink it.

What are the qualitative differences between Audi's Quattro system and
Subaru AWD?

What about Navi systems? Does anyone have any experience using them?
I have been living in Japan for the past four years and most cars on
the road (including taxis) come equipped with them. They are IMMENSELY
useful, and to be honest I don't think I would drive in Japan in a car
without one. What is the perception of them in North America? Useful
or just "show-off" toys?

Thanks for ANY help anyone can give!

 

[Larry Van Wormer]

I am espcially looking forward to hearing people's thought on the
Outback Vs. Legacy Wagon. What are some of the major differences?

I have recently test driven both of the wagons (base models). The major
differences:

- the Outback is quieter on the road, about 3-4 dbA quieter at 100 kph.

- the Outback has a better equipment spec, and sits a bit higher.
Limited slip differential, roof rack bars, and a few other items.

The similarities are larger. They both handle fine on the road, the
Legacy a bit better than the Outback, IMO, simply because it's a bit
lower. (The Outback is just a Legacy that's got a raised suspension,
basically.)

I prefer the manual transmission, finding the Subaru automatic a bit
crude (though based on everything I've read and heard, quite reliable).

Also, does anyone else consider the Impreza Wagon to be able to compete
with the A3?

Compete in what way? The finish levels are *quite* different, but for
driving in the snow and general handling, the Impreza can compete
easily. Not as sophisticated a car, but *very* effective.

Larry Van Wormer

 

[Body Roll]

Hello everyone, I have been scanning the posts in this NG for the past
three hours and I am confident the questions I have will get answered
(at least give me some food for thought) by some knowledgeable Subaru
fans...

I am moving to the Vancouver area after several years abroad and will
be looking for a new car as well. I will be living and working in the
city during the week, but I forsee many weekend jaunts into the great
outdoors and communte to Whistler EVERY weekend during the
Ski/Snowboard season.

At the moment, I am considering the following options (in no particular order)

1. Audi A3
2. Audi A3 Quattro
3. Subaru Outback
4. Subaru Legacy
5. Subaru Legacy Wagon
6. Subaru Impreza Wagon
8. Audi A4 Sedan
9. Audi A4 Wagon
7. Audi A4 Quattro Sedan
8. Audi A4 Quatto Wagon

If you have the dough and want to get a stick get an A4 Quattro. I
haven't driven one, but
I suspect just about anything should be better than a Subaru 5sp (the
slick Subaru 6sp in STi for example ))
I might be in minority here but I absolutely *hate* the rubbery shifter
feel in my Impreza. Automatic should be just fine and that's what I
should've got. Anyhow, if you are in the US #2 is not an option. AWD A3
is not sold in the US I think. And for a good reason: A3 (in europe)
and TT have a shitty Quattro variety: Haldex. It's the system that does
not work in Volvo (and now should not work in the same way in Ford
500).

 

[Andrew Taylor]

The Outback has stiffer springs and more ground clearance. Better for
off-road. But it handles more like a truck than the Legacy. The Legacy
wagon sits lower, has a smoother ride, plus sportier handling. Both have
AWD, so if it just snow and ice you are worrying about getting stuck in,
either one will do.

For me, the Legacy was the better choice, especially given that the
Outback costs several thousand more. I would rather have the sporty
handling of the Legacy since I rarely go off-road. I would have chosen
the Legacy even if they had been priced comparably. But most people seem
to get the Outback; I think it has something to do with the exterior
styling.

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

If you have the dough and want to get a stick get an A4 Quattro.

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive
maintenance/repair costs.

I
haven't driven one, but I suspect just about anything should be
better than a Subaru 5sp (the slick Subaru 6sp in STi for example
)) I might be in minority here but I absolutely *hate* the
rubbery shifter feel in my Impreza.

I have a 5sp WRX wagon, and I certainly don't associate words like
"rubbery" with the shifting. The turbo lag is a little annoying, but
the shifting itself feels fine ...

I also don't know how the WRX shifting compares to the regular Impreza
compares to the Legacy ...

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive
maintenance/repair costs.




I have a 5sp WRX wagon, and I certainly don't associate words like
"rubbery" with the shifting. The turbo lag is a little annoying, but
the shifting itself feels fine ...

I also don't know how the WRX shifting compares to the regular Impreza
compares to the Legacy ...

I agree with Monique - plus, if they upgraded the rest of the Impreza
line like the '06 WRX, it has a shorter shifter now and better first
gear synchros. I cannot comment about how it actually feels as it is my
first 5spd soob. Take a look at www.cars101.com for some of the 'new'
features over the '05s.

maybe you could rent an Audi and a soob for a weekend? Also, if you
trade often, I'd investigate the resale value of the models you're
interested in.
Have fun with your new car!

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[KLS]

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive
maintenance/repair costs.

I'm not a friend of yours, but the maintenance on my 98.5 Audi 2.8 A4
Quattro has not been frequent. It has, I admit, been expensive when
needed, but overall, I am satisfied with the tradeoff: I have a very
reliable car (it's never stranded me and now has 97k miles), and the
repairs were known issues with the marque. The car drives like a
dream and is a joy to travel in over long distances and in severely
bad winter weather (where I live, in western New York). My personal
vehicle has experienced far fewer incidences of these known issues, so
it has cost me less to keep running, an average of about $1,500 a
year, excluding oil/filter changes and tires. I can't buy a new car
on that kind of budget, and I love this car.

FYI, I also run a 99 Subaru Legacy OBW which has had its own
repair/maintenance needs, and those have been not very much less
expensive than the Audi. The Audi is the superior vehicle, but the
Subaru is very good.

 

[Body Roll]

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive
maintenance/repair costs.


I have a 5sp WRX wagon, and I certainly don't associate words like
"rubbery" with the shifting. The turbo lag is a little annoying, but
the shifting itself feels fine ...

I also don't know how the WRX shifting compares to the regular Impreza
compares to the Legacy ...

My understanding is that WRX has the same transmission and the throttle
linkage.
Anyhow I should not be too harsh on them. After all the buttery Honda
or at least Mazda shifter feel is not easy to replicate. My problem is
that they DO have a 6sp in STi that is snickety snick.
And they had it for what? 3-4 years in a mass produced car? Probably
more because
it was available outside the US for long before then and was selling in
no small numbers
there either. And what they did to improve the shifter feel on the rest
of the impreza line?
Exactly. NOTHING. My Protege that cost about half to 2/3 of what OBS
was bought for and was made a few years before OBS shifts about two
times better.

Anyhow, to pacify you a little big about the turbo lag issue in WRX:
the engine in the normally aspirated impreza does not feel any better.
You press the go pedal and nothing happens until
the needle hits about 3.5-4k. Then it pulls. But the engine revs soooo
unwillingly.

Subs are just specialized vehicles for people who live in bundocks. If
you live in a snowbelt
and have to go on gravel roads to reach your home you'd probably
worship the car.
But I live in a sunbelt and drive mostly on paved roads. Sooo, until
Sub attends to the fun to drive
issue in their mundane lineup I'd say the increased sales in the
sunbelt that they started to
covet recently hopefully ain't gonna happen.

After all, people are not stupid. They read car magazines. And what do
reviews say?
I haven't seen a single glowing review of impreza (save for the $$$$$
STi) in a loooong
time. Why? Because Subaru had been sitting on its ass for more a decade
doing NOTHING
to significantly improve the base Impreza. Which is understandable,
given that they sell maybe
25000 or Imprezas a year of which there are probably 18000 WRXes
anyway.
That is not to say that I think that slapping a turbo on a base impreza
and improving the
spring stiffness by a whopping 15% makes the car that much more fun to
drive.

And the final drop: does anyone know why exactly did they have to
remove the lock from
the gate of the wagon? Having to use the switch on the front door to
open the gate absolutely
drives me nuts.

 

[Sheldon]

Hello everyone, I have been scanning the posts in this NG for the past
three hours and I am confident the questions I have will get answered (at
least give me some food for thought) by some knowledgeable Subaru fans...

I am moving to the Vancouver area after several years abroad and will be
looking for a new car as well. I will be living and working in the city
during the week, but I forsee many weekend jaunts into the great outdoors
and communte to Whistler EVERY weekend during the Ski/Snowboard season.

At the moment, I am considering the following options (in no particular
order)

1. Audi A3
2. Audi A3 Quattro
3. Subaru Outback
4. Subaru Legacy
5. Subaru Legacy Wagon
6. Subaru Impreza Wagon
8. Audi A4 Sedan
9. Audi A4 Wagon
7. Audi A4 Quattro Sedan
8. Audi A4 Quatto Wagon
9. VW GTI

Becuase I plan on driving in some adverse mountian weather, AWD is a
feature I require. I have not had a chance to try ANY of these cars yet,
as I am still on the road, but I would like to get some feedback on these
choices. Basically, I have kind of grouped these choices into groups
along these lines.

1. GTI-A3-Impreza Wagon
2. Legacy-A4
3. Outback-Legacy Wagon-A4 Wagon

I am espcially looking forward to hearing people's thought on the Outback
Vs. Legacy Wagon. What are some of the major differences? Also, does
anyone else consider the Impreza Wagon to be able to compete with the A3?
I would LOVE it if the VW came with an AWD system, but after hearing some
pretty bad things about VW reliability, I might have to rethink it.

What are the qualitative differences between Audi's Quattro system and
Subaru AWD?

What about Navi systems? Does anyone have any experience using them? I
have been living in Japan for the past four years and most cars on the
road (including taxis) come equipped with them. They are IMMENSELY
useful, and to be honest I don't think I would drive in Japan in a car
without one. What is the perception of them in North America? Useful or
just "show-off" toys?

Thanks for ANY help anyone can give!

I live at a ski resort, and it's "still" snowing here. Every other car here
is an Outback or Legacy. The sporty set likes the WRX, as it's an all year
round sports car for this climate, but we do have our share of Porsche's and
Ferrari's. We even have an Enzo.

I recently traded an older Subaru Loyale 4WD for a later model Outback.
Haven't had much trouble with either, and the sheriff's dept. also drives
Outback's. The biggest problem I have with the car is finding mine in a
parking lot among a sea of Subaru's.

While the Audi's and others are fine automobiles (I also have a Porsche)
look at the stats. Subies are well respected in areas around the country
where it snows a lot. Just put on a set of studdless ice tires and you're
all set.

BTW, I did get to play with a navi system in a Lexus SUV. Worked like a
charm here in Colorado.

 

[Jim Stewart]

Friends of mine with Audis complain of frequent and expensive
maintenance/repair costs.

Just mention "Brake Job" to a Quattro
owner and watch him cringe...

 

[CompUser]

But I live in a sunbelt and drive mostly on paved roads. Sooo, until
Sub attends to the fun to drive
issue

...bwah haha...bwah hahahahahahah!

 

[Body Roll]

..bwah haha...bwah hahahahahahah!

If that means in English: "You should've bought STi and did not bitch
about the bag of sticks
you got instead" I agree.

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

Subs are just specialized vehicles for people who live in bundocks.
If you live in a snowbelt and have to go on gravel roads to reach
your home you'd probably worship the car. But I live in a sunbelt
and drive mostly on paved roads. Sooo, until Sub attends to the fun
to drive issue in their mundane lineup I'd say the increased sales
in the sunbelt that they started to covet recently hopefully ain't
gonna happen.

Well, I live close to the Rockies in Colorado. I chose the WRX
carefully because it had what I wanted, which absolutely includes the
ability to get me to ski areas in inclement weather and get me to
trailheads in nice weather. It drives like hell when it's nice, and
it makes nasty weather much less stressful. It's as much fun as you
can have, I think, and still be able to drive with confidence in heavy
snow.

Maybe you just chose ... poorly. My wagon is perfect for what I need.
(Although there's a good chance I'll switch to an Outback wagon in a
few years ... the extra space makes a difference.)

 

[Body Roll]

can have, I think, and still be able to drive with confidence in heavy

snow.

I'm not denying that the car is an absolute blast to drive on snow. It
definitely is.
Even with Crapenza 92.

Maybe you just chose ... poorly. My wagon is perfect for what I need.

Yes. Subaru needs to recoup all the money they spent into WRC and STI
is a good vehicle for that. I should not have pinched pennies and got
the STI.
Nevermind the whale wing. I probably chose the place to live poorly
also.
Time to move where it snows :-(

One think I don't understand is the Ford participation in WRC. What do
they get out of it?
They don't have anything remotely close to the rally car in their
lineup
(and still sell tons of crap in spite of that: just check out the
finance.yahoo.com
article on Ford 2005/2006 sales today). Makes me wonder what all the
pro American posters
are bitching about. American auto makers still have a waaaay larger
piece of pie
than they deserve. Same goes for Toyota though. Sigh.

 

[Body Roll]

What are the qualitative differences between Audi's Quattro system and

Subaru AWD?

To answer the rest of your questions: I'll probably get slaughtered
here, but I'd guess that
Quattro in A4 is somewhat better than Subaru systems. Can anyone with
5sp A4 quattro comment
how much driveline lash you have?
Btw, do you plan to get a 5sp or an automatic?

 

[Timmy]

I would prefer a 5sp, but after some more reading in these posts, am
wondering if that will have an affect on how well the AWD system
works....

 

[Body Roll]

I would prefer a 5sp, but after some more reading in these posts, am
wondering if that will have an affect on how well the AWD system
works....

If anything the Subaru AWD on 5sp should be better. If you're an
engineer you might appreciate the fact that the front diff and the
manual transmission share the same case. One fewer fluid to
worry about.

 

[Body Roll]

Compete in what way? The finish levels are *quite* different, but for

Fit in finish on Impreza is impeccable. This is one area where Subaru
did
keep abreast the competition for the last 12 years.

driving in the snow and general handling, the Impreza can compete
easily. Not as sophisticated a car, but *very* effective.

A3 does not have AWD, what kind of competition there could be on snow?
This kinda reminds me of an old commercial where a Sub guy goes to
the Beemer guy scraping snow off his 3xx and goes "Wanna race???"
THAT was priceless ))))

I somehow think that A3 would be more fun to drive when the roads are
dry though.
So I think the algorithm could be as follows: rent one of each of
these:
1. Audi A3
3. Subaru Outback
4. Subaru Legacy
5. Subaru Legacy Wagon
6. Subaru Impreza Wagon
7. Audi A4 Quattro Sedan
8. Audi A4 Quatto Wagon
9. VW GTI
for a day or two when it snows, repeat when it rains, then dries.
Then go to a dealer and repeat for the models with the stick shift.
In a month or two you'd decide what you want. What's the sales tax
where you live?

I think you can safely skip these:
8. Audi A4 Sedan
9. Audi A4 Wagon
in favor of A3.
A4 with no quattro should be a lame duck.

 

[KLS]

To answer the rest of your questions: I'll probably get slaughtered
here, but I'd guess that
Quattro in A4 is somewhat better than Subaru systems. Can anyone with
5sp A4 quattro comment
how much driveline lash you have?

I replied to this earlier and neglected to say that both cars in our
family (the 98.5 A4 Quattro and the 99 Legacy OBW) are manual
transmissions. Hope this clarifies. The clutch action and shifting
in the Audi are just much more clear and crisp than in the Subaru, and
we both feel this way. The Subaru feels more mushy and doesn't kick
in as immediately as the Audi does. Love both cars, prefer the Audi.

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

I live at a ski resort, and it's "still" snowing here. Every other
car here is an Outback or Legacy. The sporty set likes the WRX, as
it's an all year round sports car for this climate, but we do have
our share of Porsche's and Ferrari's. We even have an Enzo.

I work in Boulder, and there are an awful lot of subarus in my office
parking lot. A disturbing number of WRXes (only disturbing because
it's weird to have a car that everyone else also owns). I think there
are at least 5 WRX wagons in this 150ish person company; maybe more.

It's not unusual here in the front range to see packs of 3-4 subarus
on the road; that's how common they are. While stopped at lights, I
like to play "count the subarus."

(In contrast, when I go back East to VA, I play "try to find even a
single car rack in all this damn traffic." It's a major big deal to
find one.)

While the Audi's and others are fine automobiles (I also have a
Porsche) look at the stats. Subies are well respected in areas
around the country where it snows a lot. Just put on a set of
studdless ice tires and you're all set.

It's true that there are tons of Subarus in these kinds of places, but
I don't know if that speaks to the effectiveness of their performance
or of their marketing teams. Certainly the sheer number of Subarus in
the area influenced my decision. They're also pretty affordable.