LL Bean H6 Problems....Any Ideas?

[Jon Macey]

I have a 2001 LL Bean Outback H6 I have been having annoying problems with
for about the last couple of years. The dealer has been less than
forthcoming with helping with these issues. I don't know if they truly
cannot fix these things (if this is the case then their mechanics suck)
or they just don't want to take the time to correctly diagnose and fix these
things. SOA has been less than helpful also.

A brief description of the problems:
1) I had posted this a while back: A recurring problem with the RPM bouncing
up (as much as 500 RPM) when I release the gas and have my foot on the brake
when slowing to a stop. I can also feel slight engine surges when driving at
slow speeds; like the engine is revving itself. The dealer had replaced a
"throttle position sensor" and then the ECU was "recalibrated", both not
having any effect on this problem.

2) At high RPM (~3000 to 4000 when shifting) there is a clicking/ticking
sound and the RPM hang a bit before coming back down. I did just have the
"recall clip for the cruise control cable" done. This has had no effect on
this problem.

Also the "upgraded" Subaru stereo speakers suck. One has already been
replace in the driver's door; another is going in the front passenger door.

This has been happening for the last couple of years or so. I like the car;
but my faith in Subaru and Subaru "reliability" has greatly diminished.
I am torn between dealing with this constantly or trading on a 2001 or so
BMW 325 xi.

Any helpful thoughts/ideas?

TIA.

 

[MH]

I have a 2001 LL Bean Outback H6 I have been having annoying problems with
for about the last couple of years. The dealer has been less than
forthcoming with helping with these issues. I don't know if they truly
cannot fix these things (if this is the case then their mechanics suck)
or they just don't want to take the time to correctly diagnose and fix these
things. SOA has been less than helpful also.

A brief description of the problems:
1) I had posted this a while back: A recurring problem with the RPM bouncing
up (as much as 500 RPM) when I release the gas and have my foot on the brake
when slowing to a stop. I can also feel slight engine surges when driving at
slow speeds; like the engine is revving itself. The dealer had replaced a
"throttle position sensor" and then the ECU was "recalibrated", both not
having any effect on this problem.

2) At high RPM (~3000 to 4000 when shifting) there is a clicking/ticking
sound and the RPM hang a bit before coming back down. I did just have the
"recall clip for the cruise control cable" done. This has had no effect on
this problem.

Also the "upgraded" Subaru stereo speakers suck. One has already been
replace in the driver's door; another is going in the front passenger door.

This has been happening for the last couple of years or so. I like the car;
but my faith in Subaru and Subaru "reliability" has greatly diminished.
I am torn between dealing with this constantly or trading on a 2001 or so
BMW 325 xi.

Any helpful thoughts/ideas?

TIA.

According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average
car, and J.D. Power's 2004 Initial Quality Study
(http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/index.jsp) places Subaru a bit below
average. Every domestic make except Ford comes out on top when compared to
Subaru. I have a 2001 Subaru Outback Limited Sedan myself that has had
caused many minor annoyances, and have no plans to purchase another Subaru
in five years or so.

 

[Skweezieweezie]

It interesting to note that when you look at the vehicle
ratings by selecting up any 2001 to 2004 Subaru Outback,
many categories come back with "NO DATA" as the
response. One can see that without a large amount of
responses, the statistics created are useless.

Yes, I've had minor annoyances with my Subaru, but when
compared to ANYTHING I've driven from the Big Three,
they were just that. Minor.

I always wondered how the variants between Buick, Olds,
Pontiac, and Chevrolet could score vastly different on these
surveys when they make essentially the same vehicle.
Same series body, engine, transmission, but different nameplate.

Just my .02!

Back to the original poster now.

I have occasionally felt a slight surge when parallel parking
sometimes when the power assist kicks in/out for the steering.
Nothing real dramatic, since most cars I have driven seemed to
have done this occasionally.

I can feel the center diff in the trans split the torque from back to
front occasionally after I hit highway speeds when the trans shifts
to 90%front 10% rear. This comes as a slight surge since the trans
is no longer powering the rear wheels as much so the load on the
engine decreases. This is only BARELY noticeable, and you really
have to look for it.

I've heard no clicking when shifting in the 3K to 4K RPM range.

As far as the speakers go, how loud are you listening to your music?
I have a hearing problem and rarely need to go above volume setting
13 on the stock head unit to jam out. If you need more volume, I would
suggest an aftermarket amp and speakers. A lot of times you can blow
speakers by having too little power, as from a stock head unit.
Once you turn the volume up to a point where the stock unit runs out
of power and the outputs start to clip and distort, the nice sine wave
going to the speakers turns into a square wave, and all power handling
capability of the speaker is out the door. Most of the time this is blamed
on "sucky speakers," when the user is requesting more power than the
stock head unit can produce. The stock unit does start to run out of
headroom
at the 12-13 setting in my opinion.
Buy an amp and better speakers.

 

[John M.]

According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average
car, and J.D. Power's 2004 Initial Quality Study
(http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/index.jsp) places Subaru a bit below
average. Every domestic make except Ford comes out on top when compared to
Subaru. I have a 2001 Subaru Outback Limited Sedan myself that has had
caused many minor annoyances, and have no plans to purchase another Subaru
in five years or so.

I'm sorry you've had 'many minor annoyances' with you Subaru. I have owned
3... 2 of which I still have, the latest being an '02 VDC H6 Sedan. I have
had virtually no issues with it, though it is not perfect. I think the
automatic climate control system stinks... but all three of my Subarus have
blown away any domestic vehicle I have ever owned.
Additionally, I place no credence on *any* survey, whether it be JD Power,
Consumer Reports, etc... You will never convince me that they are not biased
or influenced. As another poster mentioned, a smaller sample group is
generally statistically inaccurate.

John

 

[MH]

I'm sorry you've had 'many minor annoyances' with you Subaru. I have owned
3... 2 of which I still have, the latest being an '02 VDC H6 Sedan. I have
had virtually no issues with it, though it is not perfect. I think the
automatic climate control system stinks... but all three of my Subarus have
blown away any domestic vehicle I have ever owned.
Additionally, I place no credence on *any* survey, whether it be JD Power,
Consumer Reports, etc... You will never convince me that they are not biased
or influenced. As another poster mentioned, a smaller sample group is
generally statistically inaccurate.

John

Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience
with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of
samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or
influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test
cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced?

 

[MH]

It interesting to note that when you look at the vehicle
ratings by selecting up any 2001 to 2004 Subaru Outback,
many categories come back with "NO DATA" as the
response. One can see that without a large amount of
responses, the statistics created are useless.

What vehicle ratings are you referring to? CR has complete data for most
Subarus via category. As for JD Power, the 04 IQS doesn't rate by
individual categories, and as such "no data" is not applicable here.
Response wise, JD Power has more than 51,000 datapoints. You are entering
into evidence that a reasonable number of responses have not been acquired,
but without any facts behind it.

Even if there are no data for, say, fit and finish, that doesn't mean that
you can just ignore large amounts of negative feedback for, say, engine
unreliability. If you don't know that category "X" is reliable or not, but
category "Y" shows problems, are you still going to feel comfortable in
purchasing the vehicle? Especially if another vehicle has info in those
missing categories, and that data *does* show above average rates of
reliability?

 

[CompUser]

Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience
with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of
samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or
influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test
cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced?

JD Powers is a hired gun.

You contract them to find (not "create") SOME
category that your organization, product or
service is #1 in....

For a fee, they will collect, analyze, slice,
dice and categorize the numbers until one or more
areas emerge that show YOUR organization, product
or service, as number one.

If you read the fine print in the ads and
commercials, some of those JD Powers
proclamations get real esoteric..."Number One for
the past three years (in new model complaints,
from first time auto buyers, during the 6th-12th
months of ownership)".

Note, what they come up with is not untrue. But,
it can be so narrow in focus, that it can be
practically meaningless.

CR, OTOH is a "free-standing" non-profit
organization. I've been a CR reader for decades.
Some complaints of "ballot stuffing" to influence
vehicle ratings by dealership employees has been
made, but it would have to be orchestrated at a
corporate level practically, to have an
influence, I would guess.

Steve

Steve

 

[MDCORE]

According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average

car,

Might I ask where in CR you found this bit of information? I would like to see
it for myself, as I am a subscriber both to the magazine and the online site.

Thanks!
Duke

 

[John M.]

Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience
with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of
samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or
influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test
cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced?

Yes, I am basing my experience on my 3 models... and in following the
hundreds of fellow Subaru owners out there. Regardless of how 'morally'
straight you believe CR, or any other rating organization to be, the bottom
line is that someone, somewhere is going to give in and sell a rating. It's
no different than a good cop going bad. It's human nature.
Use your own judgement, form your own opinions; I trust no one else to do
that for me, nor do I rely upon anyone else to do that for me.
John

 

[MH]

Actually, I think I confused that with the Baja. 2004 auto issue. In any
case, the H6 Outback is in the used car to avoid list.

 

[John M.]

Actually, I think I confused that with the Baja. 2004 auto issue. In any
case, the H6 Outback is in the used car to avoid list.

It does sound like you are confused.
In any case, what issues put the H6 Outback in the 'avoid' list, for
whatever it's worth?
John

 

[MH]

It does sound like you are confused.
In any case, what issues put the H6 Outback in the 'avoid' list, for
whatever it's worth?
John

*Was* confused. Minor mix-up, the brand as a whole has moderate to severe
reliability problems, depending on the model. As for the issue, the issue
is with the H6 engine itself. It has a strong tendency to break down or
otherwise require repair.

 

[John M.]

*Was* confused. Minor mix-up, the brand as a whole has moderate to severe
reliability problems, depending on the model. As for the issue, the issue
is with the H6 engine itself. It has a strong tendency to break down or
otherwise require repair.

Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe
reliability problems?? Huh?
Where is your proof that there is a 'strong tendency' for the H6 to
breakdown or otherwise require repair?

I have been following this group for a couple of years, and there have been
no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning.
John

 

[MH]

Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe

reliability problems?? Huh?
Where is your proof that there is a 'strong tendency' for the H6 to
breakdown or otherwise require repair?

I have been following this group for a couple of years, and there have been
no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning.
John

You are selectively parsing one data source of variables that are not in
support of your argument, and disregarding all other data sources that
indicate a significant problem in this area. If you throw out all the data
that doesn't support your argument, of course your conclusion will be at
odds with reality.

 

[Florian Feuser /FFF/]

You are selectively parsing one data source of variables that are not in
support of your argument, and disregarding all other data sources that
indicate a significant problem in this area. If you throw out all the data
that doesn't support your argument, of course your conclusion will be at
odds with reality.

The question was: where are the data supporting YOUR argument.

Florian

 

[MH]

The question was: where are the data supporting YOUR argument.

Florian

The data was supplied, he disregarded it as it didn't fit into his
preconceived biases. If you haven't already, please feel free to read the
thread's parent posts to get up to speed on things. While the sources are
already listed, to save you time I'll point you to the 2004 CR Annual Car
issue, and the 2004 J.D. Power IQS. The former has into regarding the
problems with the H6 engine and Baja, while the latter involves the
significant drop in quality of the Subaru line as a whole. Hope this helps.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical
Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction
made between 2.5l vs 3.0l H6. This is using the link YOU supplied
several posts above.

I suggest we all stop feeding this troll.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[John M.]

AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical

Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction
made between 2.5l vs 3.0l H6. This is using the link YOU supplied
several posts above.

I suggest we all stop feeding this troll.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Carl,
I agree with you. I have found no data to support his suppositions. In fact,
I did research this last night and found no info to support his claims. On
the contrary, I found many diverse sites to reinforce the fact that Subarus
are one of the most reliable brands on the market. As for problems with the
H6, I found not a single instance (other than a problem with an air mass
flow sensor). I can supply all of the links upon request.
I do think we are dealing with a troll, and from my aspect, he/she/it is now
*history*.
John

 

[Jon Macey]

Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe
reliability problems?? Huh?
Where is your proof that there is a 'strong tendency' for the H6 to
breakdown or otherwise require repair?

I have been following this group for a couple of years, and there have been
no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning.
John

I have been following this newsgroup for a while also, even before I bought
the Outback. I have seen no discussions about the above mentioned issues
concerning the H6. I have also never seen any discussions about the issues I
am experienceing; these seem to be few and far between as well. On the
whole, I am very pleased with the overall smoothness and power of the H6.

 

[MH]

AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical
Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction
made between 2.5l vs 3.0l H6. This is using the link YOU supplied
several posts above.

I suggest we all stop feeding this troll.

Look, you are ignoring what people post. The JD Power was only *overall*
reliability. The CR reports indicate targeted areas. Please read more
carefully.