I finally found her

[Body Roll]

I'm happy to report that after much of angst and misery (with the much
hated 2005 outback sport) I have found a suitable replacement for it.

I'm happy with 2003 A4 quattro (sport package).
No body roll despite the 17mm or so rear sway bar -> proper tuning of
sport package
is suspected.
No signs of understeer (how is that possible on the car that employs
the same 50/50 front/back power distribution is beyond me, proper
polishing
of torsen is suspected)

Now I'm sure some pundits would point that the comparison is not fair
and I should use Legacy GT
or something like WRX. Well, there is NO comparison: the shifter
action is silky smooth,
there are no irritating creaks and rattles and the whole power band is
usable since
the 4 banger is barely audible at 5k rpm.

You truly get what you pay for in this case. Amen.

 

[weelliott]

I'm happy to report that after much of angst and misery (with the much
hated 2005 outback sport) I have found a suitable replacement for it.

I'm happy with 2003 A4 quattro (sport package).
No body roll despite the 17mm or so rear sway bar -> proper tuning of
sport package
is suspected.
No signs of understeer (how is that possible on the car that employs
the same 50/50 front/back power distribution is beyond me, proper
polishing
of torsen is suspected)

Now I'm sure some pundits would point that the comparison is not fair
and I should use Legacy GT
or something like WRX. Well, there is NO comparison: the shifter
action is silky smooth,
there are no irritating creaks and rattles and the whole power band is
usable since
the 4 banger is barely audible at 5k rpm.

You truly get what you pay for in this case. Amen.

I'd only say it's not fair because the price comparison when new is
huge--you truly do get what you pay for. If you were expecting sport
from the outback sport, it's not surprising that you were
disappointed. The outback sport is built more for offroad use than
sporting use. Kind of like the sport in SUV. Also, I don't think the
rattles and creaks are representative of a typical subaru.

The lack of understeer might also be a function of the suspension
settings. The Germans are willing to create a more neutral car, and
since the audi is so nose heavy, they needed to bias the spring and
sway bar settings to a point closer to neutral to compensate.

Although, if the experience of the two peoople that I know with Audis
is any indication, you will have more issues with it than the subie.
But if you hated the subie,a nd love the audi, you'll likely come out
happier in the end anyway.

Congratulations on your purchase and I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Steampunk]

I'd only say it's not fair because the price comparison when new is
huge--you truly do get what you pay for. If you were expecting sport
from the outback sport, it's not surprising that you were
disappointed. The outback sport is built more for offroad use than
sporting use. Kind of like the sport in SUV. Also, I don't think the
rattles and creaks are representative of a typical subaru.

The lack of understeer might also be a function of the suspension
settings. The Germans are willing to create a more neutral car, and
since the audi is so nose heavy, they needed to bias the spring and
sway bar settings to a point closer to neutral to compensate.

Although, if the experience of the two peoople that I know with Audis
is any indication, you will have more issues with it than the subie.
But if you hated the subie,a nd love the audi, you'll likely come out
happier in the end anyway.

Congratulations on your purchase and I hope you enjoy it.

Audi's are cool cars...

They really look good from underneath when they're on the lift, and unless
the OP got an exceptional one, that's the view he'll be seeing a lot of
the time.

 

[Nobody > (Revisited)]

Although, if the experience of the two peoople that I know with Audis
is any indication, you will have more issues with it than the subie.
But if you hated the subie,a nd love the audi, you'll likely come out
happier in the end anyway.

Congratulations on your purchase and I hope you enjoy it.

One of my old bosses (none of those now, I'm retired) had (may still
have, as he couldn't get rid of it for any decent amount) a 2002 A4.

Bought used as a corporate lease (1 yr) in 03, and it spent more time
in the shop than on the road for 2 years until he parked it in the back
yard in disgust. IIRC, he spent over $6K in the process himself, not
counting what Audi paid for.

He drooled all over my 00 OBWL.




--
"Shit this is it, all the pieces do fit.
We're like that crazy old man jumping
out of the alleyway with a baseball bat,
saying, "Remember me motherfucker?"
Jim “Dandy” Mangrum

 

[Nobody > (Revisited)]

Audi's are cool cars...

They really look good from underneath when they're on the lift, and unless
the OP got an exceptional one, that's the view he'll be seeing a lot of
the time.

<}}


--
"Shit this is it, all the pieces do fit.
We're like that crazy old man jumping
out of the alleyway with a baseball bat,
saying, "Remember me motherfucker?"
Jim “Dandy†Mangrum

 

[clare]

Audi's are cool cars...

They really look good from underneath when they're on the lift, and unless
the OP got an exceptional one, that's the view he'll be seeing a lot of
the time.

Audi, Mercedes, Jag , Porsche, Cadilac- -
Anybody who thinks he is somebody needs to own at least ONE ____
You don't need a garage at home - they spend enough time in the
dealer's garage the time they spend "out in the open" is
insignificant!!

 

[Steampunk]

Audi, Mercedes, Jag , Porsche, Cadilac- -
Anybody who thinks he is somebody needs to own at least ONE ____
You don't need a garage at home - they spend enough time in the
dealer's garage the time they spend "out in the open" is
insignificant!!

Volvo 1800ES. Nice car, fun to drive...to the Independant Volvo Repair...

 

[AD]

Ok, put it another way: if I had $20-25k I still would've got
an older audi than a new or slightly used WRX/LGT

Now with the recent forced soft offroading I might have to reconsider
though.

The upcoming winter will put all dots in I.

I somehow doubt it. All comparos of STI vs Evo
are quick to mention how unwilling STI is to rotate compared
to the tailhappy evo. And for me, personally, understeer is
a major fun killer.

The first thing I did on OBS was to ditch the 13mm rear for the 20mm
sway bar from STI.
That did not remove one bit of understeer.
Then went the rear springs (STI oem, black) - not a yota of understeer
is gone.

I guess it's the function of the center diff.

Audi's are cool cars...

They really look good from underneath when they're on the lift, and unless
the OP got an exceptional one, that's the view he'll be seeing a lot of
the time.

Time will tell. I already had the clutch along with the adjusted part
replaced yesterday.
$550 for the parts, much less in labor as I;m not in the states.
I claimed the responsibility but the parts guy consoled me saying
there is no way I could have trashed the disk to the bare metal in one
soft off roading sitting pulling my rwd beater out of a grass covered
clay field.

To do subaru justice: neither obs nor legacy (both manuals) would've
spun the front wheels
with the rears sitting idly as my A4 did in the process.
If there is a 50:50 split in the normal case I'm not seeing it.

Anyhow, Subaru makes good enough cars for most people,
but they just don't suit me and don't mix well
with local luddites at the yearly technical car inspections spinning
the wheels
one axle at a time to check the brakes.

I guess the viscous coupling on anything south of STi would not get
thick enough
quick enough to get any damage to the center differential, but I just
don't want to
take any chances.

Since torsen is mechanical I wonder if it would fare any better though
than a viscous coupling diff
on a subaru with a stick.

I probably lied about the rear sway bar thickness: from the looks of
the car on a lift
the front looks about 32mm and the rear is S4 grade 20mm. (Mine has
sport package)

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

ing
there is no way I could have trashed the disk to the bare metal in one
soft off roading sitting pulling my rwd beater out of a grass covered
clay field.

To do subaru justice: neither obs nor legacy (both manuals) would've
spun the front wheels
with the rears sitting idly as my A4 did in the process.
If there is a 50:50 split in the normal case I'm not seeing it.

wondering if the trick of applying a little brake would have sent more
power to the other axle?

Anyhow, Subaru makes good enough cars for most people,
but they just don't suit me and don't mix well
with local luddites at the yearly technical car inspections spinning
the wheels
one axle at a time to check the brakes.

I guess the viscous coupling on anything south of STi would not get
thick enough
quick enough to get any damage to the center differential, but I just
don't want to
take any chances.

Since torsen is mechanical I wonder if it would fare any better though
than a viscous coupling diff
on a subaru with a stick.

the center diff is viscous LOCKING.
I HAVE heard of some upgrade to the fluid to get it to lock more
quickly after slippage.

Does the OBS or the Audi have rear LSD? I know my WRX and my wife's
Outback do. I admit I don't softroad much though.

 

[AD]

wondering if the trick of applying a little brake would have sent more
power to the other axle?

the electronic gizmos on A4 are supposed to do that for you with no
driver intervention.
I have to admit I turned off ESP at the first sign of wheel slippage
but, in retrospect,
probably would've been better off if I left it on

the center diff is viscous LOCKING.

the bastards at the inspections give the same single axle brake
testing
treatment to the subarus (according to their technician).

 I HAVE heard of some upgrade to the fluid to get it to lock more
quickly after slippage.

Does the OBS or the Audi have rear LSD? I know my WRX and my wife's
Outback do. I admit I don't softroad much though.

Turning one rear wheel while the car is on the lift in neutral does
not move
the opposite wheel (or the fronts).

I guess it's the same brake based unstuck assist that LSD in the late
WRXs and outbacks
was "replaced" with.

The only subaru in the whole lineup with the remaining LSD AFAIK is
STI
and the rear LSD is unlike in lesser WRXs is mechanical.

Still, LSD is a moot point when no power is transferred to the rear
axle.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

the electronic gizmos on A4 are supposed to do that for you with no
driver intervention.
I have to admit I turned off ESP at the first sign of wheel slippage
but, in retrospect,
probably would've been better off if I left it on













the bastards at the inspections give the same single axle brake
testing
treatment to the subarus (according to their technician).



Turning one rear wheel while the car is on the lift in neutral does
not move
the opposite wheel (or the fronts).

I guess it's the same brake based unstuck assist that LSD in the late
WRXs and outbacks
was "replaced" with.

The only subaru in the whole lineup with the remaining LSD AFAIK is
STI
and the rear LSD is unlike in lesser WRXs is mechanical.

Still, LSD is a moot point when no power is transferred to the rear
axle.

The system in my stickshift 06 WRX wagon is as (somewhat poorly)
described in the bottom section here;

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/viscous+coupling/

On it and my wife's 03 Outback, turning one rear wheel off the ground
turns the other side in the same direction - LSD.
However, she has a 4EAT autotran. and it has a wet clutchpack and
torque split is variable depending on control to a valve in the
transmission.

If the systems have changed or are offered with different gear in some
locations, that's a bad decision on Subaru's part I think.

 

[AD]

Looking at http://www.awdwiki.com/en/quattro/
I figure I might be fine since I have quattro IV system and to quote:
"Cons: When both front or both rear wheels are on ice, ROLLERS, or
raised in the air, the four wheel drive does not work."

I do not envy local subaru owners, but winter comes and I start
spinning wheels on ice if I cheapen on winter rubber
that might change ;-)
Still, I do not miss driveline lash one bit, something that either was
not ever present on audi since the days Quattro I
or was eradicated in the subsequent generations (Torsen allows for
separate tuning of coast mode, a feat that
is likely impossible to achieve with viscous coupling)

It would do Subaru some good to combine center diff with viscous
coupling in FT-86 connecting front wheels
ONLY when rears are slipping thusly eliminating the lash (with no
preload in the VC that is).
The same approach I believe used in bmw 325/330 xi

The system in my stickshift 06 WRX wagon is as (somewhat poorly)
described in the bottom section here;

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/viscous+coupling/

On it and my wife's 03 Outback, turning one rear wheel off the ground
turns the other side in the same direction - LSD.
However, she has a 4EAT autotran. and it has a wet clutchpack and
torque split is variable depending on control to a valve in the
transmission.

If the systems have changed or are offered with different gear in some
locations, that's a bad decision on Subaru's part I think.

Carl,
LSD is long gone on WRX sold IN THE US of A, replaced by electronic
"differential" lock,
so you may want to hold onto your wrx and outback if any softroading
is in the pipe -> not an issue
if you don't own a ranch in the states as the opportunities for
softroading are limited
by lack of open space (at least in san francisco bay area)

Check the subaru.com site: there is NO lsd offered on anything cheaper
than STI.
I dunno about other locations

 

[AD]

One of my old bosses (none of those now, I'm retired) had (may still
have, as he couldn't get rid of it for any decent amount) a 2002 A4.

audi without torsen in center and/or back is pretty useless

there are plenty of cheaper front wheel drivers that will do just fine
and won't require meticulous timing belt changes in the process

i'm not surprised he could not get rid of a castrated A4.
I would not be surprised if understeer on a front wheel driver
is as severe as on other front wheel drivers. what's the point
aside from awesome rust resistance of the audi chassis?

Bought used  as a corporate lease (1 yr) in 03, and it spent more time
in the shop than on the road for 2 years until he parked it in the back
yard in disgust. IIRC, he spent over $6K in the process himself, not
counting what Audi paid for.

I paid over $10k in 1992 legacy maintenance until I got rid of it in
disgust.
In retrospect I liked who that car drive and felt a whole lot better
than 2005 OBS

YMMV

He drooled all over my 00 OBWL.

Next time I get stuck while on a short softroad stint I might too.
But given the abundance of luddites with single wheel dynamometer in
my neck of woods
I probably won't.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Looking athttp://www.awdwiki.com/en/quattro/
I figure I might be fine since I have quattro IV system and to quote:
"Cons: When both front or both rear wheels are on ice, ROLLERS, or
raised in the air, the four wheel drive does not work."

I do not envy local subaru owners, but winter comes and I start
spinning wheels on ice if I cheapen on winter rubber
that might change ;-)
Still, I do not miss driveline lash one bit, something that either was
not ever present on audi since the days Quattro I
or was eradicated in the subsequent generations (Torsen allows for
separate tuning of coast mode, a feat that
is likely impossible to achieve with viscous coupling)

Yeah, you can find plenty of roller tests as well as side-by-side show
runs/hill climbs on Youtube, What's maddening about the snow/sand
tests, there's no mention of using the same model tires on each car!

Carl,
LSD is long gone on WRX sold IN THE US of A, replaced by electronic
"differential" lock,
so you may want to hold onto your wrx and outback if any softroading
is in the pipe -> not an issue
if you don't own a ranch in the states as the opportunities for
softroading are limited
by lack of open space (at least in san francisco bay area)

Check the subaru.com site: there is NO lsd offered on anything cheaper
than STI.
I dunno about other locations

Yeah, I suppose VDC is supposed to handle that nowadays.

I generally keep cars until the wheels fall off. I drove an '81 Civic
wagon for almost 19 years!

As long as my cars serve me and seem reliable, I'll keep them. Can't
really afford to get another now anyway. My wife has never been
'thrilled' with her Outback, but it's the best we could do after my
daughter totaled the van. I think my wife misses the higher seating.
And she isn't thrilled with the OBW's appearance.

 

[AD]

Yeah, you can find plenty of roller tests as well as side-by-side show
runs/hill climbs on Youtube, What's maddening about the snow/sand
tests, there's no mention of using the same model tires on each car!

Good catch. But I won't got as far as to claim they have intentionally
handicapped the competition.

Yeah, I suppose VDC is supposed to handle that nowadays.

Yeah, right. vw EDL equivalent in my A4 was supposed to work when I
was spinning
front wheels in the shallow mud last weekend also.

Maybe VDC is good enough for subaru to create 2.5 wheel drive car out
of
a two wheel driver but given that torsen center diff seems helpless
when both wheels on one axle are spinning EDL does little for the "get
unstuck" part of
the equation. Lets not fool ourselves here: these abs based nannies
are there
solely to keep costs down which is understandable on base wrx and
legacy but should have
raised eyebrows when it was killed on higher market niche GT and fully
loaded OBW

I generally keep cars until the wheels fall off. I drove an '81 Civic
wagon for almost 19 years!

As long as my cars serve me and seem reliable, I'll keep them. Can't
really afford to get another now anyway. My wife has never been
'thrilled' with her Outback, but it's the best we could do after my
daughter totaled the van. I think my wife misses the higher seating.
And she isn't thrilled with the OBW's appearance.

I personally like subaru (save for the bug eyed impreza of the yore)
looks just fine.
My 03 A4 avant arguably looks marginally better than 05 OBW, but this
is really splitting beans here lookwise.
Heck, TT looks good but knowing that crap haldex is under the hood is
just turning me inside out
whenever I see it.