Hybrids are coming...get your name on the list

P

Peter Eberl

Kidd you not...2 years tops..Hybrid drive vehicles are in development
stage..no idea if Honda or Toyota drive versions...at the same time I'm
bugging dealership to see if Subaru will drop a V6 into the Forester
anytime soon. I've got a Forester and a H6 VDC Sedan that really ROCKS
 
Toyota and Honda have had hybrids for about 3 years now. My friend has a
Prius. He got one of the first ones available.
 
Have you been hiding under a rock? I'm thinking 5 years or so is when the
first mass produced Honda insight went on sale. The hybrids have not been a
big deal though....The insight and Prius are extremely ugly and the insight
doesn't have any room, the Civic is nice and a fairly normal car but what's
the point? The economy isn't that great.
Now if Mitsubishi rolls out the all-wheel-drive Eclipse hybrid in '06 I
WILL get exited. TG
 
Have you been hiding under a rock? I'm thinking 5 years or so is when the
first mass produced Honda insight went on sale. The hybrids have not been a
big deal though....The insight and Prius are extremely ugly and the insight
doesn't have any room, the Civic is nice and a fairly normal car but what's
the point? The economy isn't that great.

Using today's average gas price here, the typical 20k kms per year
and city consumption (the hybrid forte), yearly gas costs are:

Civic Si (gas only) $1456
Civic Hybrid $892
Insight $710
Prius $728

I would say the Prius (or any hybrid) makes lots of economic sense.


Gas today here is 91¢/litre
Consumption, city, from CanadianDriver.com
Civic Si 8.0l/100km
Insight 3.9l/100km
Civic Hybrid 4.9l/100km
Prius 4.0l/100km
 
Dave Null Sr. said:
Using today's average gas price here, the typical 20k kms per year
and city consumption (the hybrid forte), yearly gas costs are:

Civic Si (gas only) $1456
Civic Hybrid $892
Insight $710
Prius $728

I would say the Prius (or any hybrid) makes lots of economic sense.


Gas today here is 91¢/litre
Consumption, city, from CanadianDriver.com
Civic Si 8.0l/100km
Insight 3.9l/100km
Civic Hybrid 4.9l/100km
Prius 4.0l/100km

From your analysis it looks like this type of vehicle makes sense where you
live. I'm in the US and this past week E-85 fuel was on a promotional sale
of US$0.85 per gallon. At this price, I believe that the annual fuel cost
for an FFV Ford Taurus would be lower than the Insight. Admittedly, E-85 is
not usually priced that low, but an FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle) Taurus is
much more readily available and is more spacious than any of the Hybrids you
listed. I believe that the Taurus would have lower initial and maintenance
costs too. Too bad Subaru doesn't do FFV, Bi-Fuel CNG or LPG (the solution
I like the best), or Hybrid.

I realize that your reply is based on the previous poster's claim that "the
economy isn't that great" and that statement has to be put into context.
For you, that statement might not be true. For him - and me - his statement
is very true. Here is why: Even with what are historically high prices for
gasoline (in my area it is actually E-10 fuel that is sold as regular
petrol), it still is substantially lower priced than $0.91/liter. The
recent "outrageously high" price would be about US$0.54/liter, and during
bargain times it would be about half that price. With that low a price for
fuel, even for what we consider high priced gas, it would likely take longer
than the life of the car for the fuel cost savings to pay back the
additional cost of a Hybrid or most any other alternate fuel vehicle. E-85
is the exception, because manufacturers are not charging extra for this
feature. Unfortunately most of them aren't doing a very good job of
advertising its availability.

Walt Kienzle
 
Using today's average gas price here, the typical 20k kms per year
and city consumption (the hybrid forte), yearly gas costs are:

Civic Si (gas only) $1456
Civic Hybrid $892
Insight $710
Prius $728

I would say the Prius (or any hybrid) makes lots of economic sense.

You may have missed a few recent articles in US newspapers regarding
hybrids. It seems they get MUCH worse mileage than their EPA ratings. The
EPA tests do not accurately measure the true fuel consumption of a hybrid
vehicle.

Charles Perry P.E.
 
Charles Perry said:
You may have missed a few recent articles in US newspapers regarding
hybrids. It seems they get MUCH worse mileage than their EPA ratings. The
EPA tests do not accurately measure the true fuel consumption of a hybrid
vehicle.

Charles Perry P.E.

Note that they're still getting the best mileage overall. The big
problem is that Toyota, et al, CANNOT use realistic numbers -- they are
required by law to display and advertise the EPA numbers and as you
note, the EPA's testing gives erroneous numbers for hybrids.

-FPtM
 
Dave Null Sr. said:
I would say the Prius (or any hybrid) makes lots of economic sense.

Don't forget the cost of batteries! I understand Toyota recently upped
their warranty on the battery pack to 100k miles to help entice people
to buy the Prius. Why? The article I read said the battery pack alone is
$2000 US. Something to think about...

Rick
 
Charles said:
You may have missed a few recent articles in US newspapers regarding
hybrids. It seems they get MUCH worse mileage than their EPA ratings. The
EPA tests do not accurately measure the true fuel consumption of a hybrid

Hi,

FWIW, a Los Angeles TV station recently did a head to head with a Honda
Insight and a Toyota Prius to see what they would do in a typical "drive
around SoCal" kinda loop of freeway, city, etc. with lots of traffic all
the way. At the end of the test, the Honda returned ~55 mpg, the Toyota
~59 mpg. Don't know how that compares to EPA specs, but we can't forget
where "YMMV" originally came from!

Rick
 
Factor in the Toyota Echo and other high fuel economy gas only models that
cost 1/2 as much as the hybrids....initial and overall cost are important,
not just how much you save on gas. TG
 
The Toyota Echo can be had for under $10,000 at 38 MPG combined.
The Volkswagen Golf and Jetta TDI models get 32/41 respectively (combined
city and hwy) and cost thousands less than the hybrids. Hybrids are getting
better and I like the development of new choices but they are certainly not
answer for the vast majority of consumers at this point. TG
 
You may have missed a few recent articles in US newspapers regarding
hybrids. It seems they get MUCH worse mileage than their EPA ratings. The
EPA tests do not accurately measure the true fuel consumption of a hybrid
vehicle.

These are not EPA ratings.
 
in
[chop]
his statement is very true. Here is why: Even with what are
historically high prices for gasoline (in my area it is actually E-10
fuel that is sold as regular petrol), it still is substantially lower
priced than $0.91/liter. The recent "outrageously high" price would be
about US$0.54/liter, and during bargain times it would be about half
that price. With that low a price for fuel, even for what we consider
high priced gas, it would likely take longer than the life of the car
for the fuel cost savings to pay back the additional cost of a Hybrid or
most any other alternate fuel vehicle.
[chop]

Of course all my numbers were local, including Canadian $ and ¢.
So our gas is approximately 66¢US/litre. Our taxes are higher
here.

Given the same size of vehicle, and that the Prius is actually
a chunk larger than the one gas-only Civic, the ~C$700 per year
will pay for batteries long after the warranty has expired.
It is also assumed that the Prius (or Civic) will have the same
bulletproof type reputation (or even better). Toyota or Honda
know that people are going to jump on the reliability statistics
and have probably spent more than 'normal' on quality control
and design.

Gas will only be going up in price. Maybe not as dramatically
as in the last couple of months, but given the world oil situation
and China's increasing rate of consumption, up is a given.

That means the C$700 number is likely very conservative in
the longer term.
 
Fruit said:
Note that they're still getting the best mileage overall. The big
problem is that Toyota, et al, CANNOT use realistic numbers -- they are
required by law to display and advertise the EPA numbers and as you
note, the EPA's testing gives erroneous numbers for hybrids.

-FPtM

I own a 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid, which now has close to 5000 miles on
it, and also follow the Prius-2G group on Yahoo Groups. The following
is my 2 cents on this whole hybrid thread and not specifically in
response to the above messages.

I can tell you that indeed Prius owner mileage varies and this has been
an active topic on the group. My wife commutes about 45 miles each way
to work on I-66 in Northern Virginia and averages about 55 mpg and has
seen one tank over 60 mpg. Others report from around 40 mpg to over 70 mpg!

If one buys a hybrid *solely* for gas mileage, they will find a
relatively long payback period of several years as compared to other
high-mpg cars that are not hybrid. However, hybrids -- and the Prius in
particular -- offer a variety of features; such as, very low emissions,
good overall driveability and size, interesting (indeed fascinating)
technology and features in addition to the high mpg. An important
feature for buyers in Norther Virginia is that the hybrids qualify for
special Clean Fuel license plates, which in turn permit (through June,
2006) the cars to be operated in High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes with
only the driver aboard.

Battery pack replacement expense is not the only issue. With all of the
high tech components and computers, it appears advisable to buy Toyota's
7yr/100k service contract and replace the car about the time the
contract runs out. Fortunately, history with the 2001-2003 Priuses
bodes well for the 2004 model's reliability and longevity.

What is *important* to understand is that hybrid technology appears to
be a viable alternative and that hybrids can and do drive with much of
the feel and performance that one would normally expect from a car. It
will be interesting to see how the Toyota Highlander, Lexus, Ford and
other brands of hybrid SUV's perform.

Anyone interested in the hybrids should view the FAQ's at Yahoo
Groups/Prius-2G or http://www.vfaq.net.

Ed P
Reply To address munged.
 
Dave Null Sr. said:
in news:(e-mail address removed): [snip]
Of course all my numbers were local, including Canadian $ and ¢.
So our gas is approximately 66¢US/litre. Our taxes are higher
here.

I don't see what your point is here. My point was that you can't say that
the previous poster was incorrect because of the circumstances where you
live or how much you or some mythical "average person" drives. Your prices,
higher taxes included, may make what you say true for you, but please don't
claim that someone else is wrong because of that. BTW I noticed you
deleted, without comment, my text about fuel in my area that costs about
US$0.21/litre. No matter. Just as a basis of comparison, the last time I
fueled up (aside from the US$0.21/liter) I paid about US$0.41/liter.

I also question your price adjustment from CAN$ to US$ for the cost of gas.
Are your wages increased by 20% or so compared to someone working in the US
to make up for the lower value of the CAN$? Unlikely. Please correct me if
I am wrong, but I expect that a CAN$ being spent by you has the same impact
on the family finances as a US$ spent by me. As an example of how prices
are adjusted down to correspond to the lower value of the CAN$, I know that
many cars (Chrysler minivans come to mind) that are identicaly equipped to
the US conterparts and are sold for substantially less in Canada because of
this differential - so much so that US residents buy their cars in Canada
and import them themselves to save thousands of dollars. The problem has
gotten so bad that US dealers have been given approval to deny warranty
service for vehicles bought in Canada. Exceptions are made for Canadians
experiencing warranty issues while traveling in the US.
Given the same size of vehicle, and that the Prius is actually
a chunk larger than the one gas-only Civic, the ~C$700 per year
will pay for batteries long after the warranty has expired.

Actually I dispute this number also, primarily because I only drive 12,000km
per year. Again, averages don't apply to everyone, so you can't shoot down
someone else's claim because of circumstances applicable to you but not to
them. Even if the number is accurate and the savings will pay for the $2000
batteries, it wouldn't have also fully paid for the extra $5,000 to $10,000
initial purchase price (compared to a similarly sized conventional car, plus
the markup above list price that many dealers are charging for these limited
supply hybrids) and the extra insurance costs for a car more expensive to
buy and repair.
It is also assumed that the Prius (or Civic) will have the same
bulletproof type reputation (or even better). Toyota or Honda
know that people are going to jump on the reliability statistics
and have probably spent more than 'normal' on quality control
and design.

Probably not a good thing to assume with new technology like this. I expect
that the extra quality control and testing will make the quality ratings
break even with the normal vehicles at best, particluarly with the low
volume hybrid cars. Do you realize that Toyota only sold about 4,000 Prius'
last year?
Gas will only be going up in price.

People have been saying this for the past 30 years, and I don't believe this
any more now than I did last year, or the year before, or the year before
that, etc. Adjusted for inflation, gas in the US is still less expensive
than it was 20 years ago. Sure, we will run out eventually, but by that
time I expect to be dead, my Subaru will be an antique, and technological
advancements will have a replacement solution fully implemented. Crude oil
prices are dropping already from $42/barrel to 40.50/barrel, but that is
only a small part of why prices are high. The cost of gasoline is high in
the US because of a drop in the number of refineries over the past 30
years - not a single new refinery has been built in the US since the early
1970's, but many refineries have been closed since then because of age, lack
of profitability, or inability or lack of cost effectiveness to make
improvements required by regulations (environmental, safety, etc). That,
combined with with governmental requirements for different blends of fuel in
various regions which change twice a year is causing a supply shortage in
gasoline that causes a temporary shortage during the transition from winter
to summer fuels that happens each Spring, and to lesser extent each Autumn.
When supply finally catches up with demand, I fully expect prices to drop by
20% from their current levels. I have been doing my part - I haven't bought
gasoline since the end of April.
Maybe not as dramatically
as in the last couple of months, but given the world oil situation
and China's increasing rate of consumption, up is a given.

That means the C$700 number is likely very conservative in
the longer term.
According to my figures, I didn't even buy $700 worth of gas for all of my
driving last year -- or any other year. My credit card company reports that
I have bought $252 of gasoline so far this year (that doesn't include the
$20 in fuel rebates I received from BP/Amoco recently). Even adjusting that
amount to make it comparable with the CAN$, it would be impossible for me to
save $700 unless I didn't drive at all. No hybrid needed for that.
 
I agree. My brother has a '92 Saturn sedan. 35/40 mileage. Then again, the
car is made mostly out of fiberglass.
 
Dave Null Sr. said:
(e-mail address removed): [snip]
Of course all my numbers were local, including Canadian $ and ¢.
So our gas is approximately 66¢US/litre. Our taxes are higher
here.

I don't see what your point is here. My point was that you can't say
that the previous poster was incorrect because of the circumstances
where you live or how much you or some mythical "average person" drives.
Your prices, higher taxes included, may make what you say true for you,
but please don't claim that someone else is wrong because of that. BTW
I noticed you deleted, without comment, my text about fuel in my area
that costs about US$0.21/litre. No matter. Just as a basis of
comparison, the last time I fueled up (aside from the US$0.21/liter) I
paid about US$0.41/liter.

Nowhere did I say anybody was wrong. I just stated that for a typical
driver here a hybrid can make economic sense. I also didn't mention
that Venezuelans rioted a few years ago when gas went from 5¢ to 10¢ a
gallon.
I also question your price adjustment from CAN$ to US$ for the cost of
gas. Are your wages increased by 20% or so compared to someone working
in the US to make up for the lower value of the CAN$? Unlikely. Please
correct me if I am wrong, but I expect that a CAN$ being spent by you
has the same impact on the family finances as a US$ spent by me. As an
example of how prices are adjusted down to correspond to the lower value
of the CAN$, I know that many cars (Chrysler minivans come to mind) that
are identicaly equipped to the US conterparts and are sold for
substantially less in Canada because of this differential - so much so
that US residents buy their cars in Canada and import them themselves to
save thousands of dollars. The problem has gotten so bad that US
dealers have been given approval to deny warranty service for vehicles
bought in Canada. Exceptions are made for Canadians experiencing
warranty issues while traveling in the US.

And I have virtually free health care. It's a different country with
different tax structures.
All I said was that hybrids make sense here.

Since the mini-van you're talking about is made here, there are cost
advantages for us.
Actually I dispute this number also, primarily because I only drive
12,000km per year. Again, averages don't apply to everyone, so you
can't shoot down someone else's claim because of circumstances
applicable to you but not to them. Even if the number is accurate and
the savings will pay for the $2000 batteries, it wouldn't have also
fully paid for the extra $5,000 to $10,000 initial purchase price
(compared to a similarly sized conventional car, plus the markup above
list price that many dealers are charging for these limited supply
hybrids) and the extra insurance costs for a car more expensive to buy
and repair.

And I drive less than 5,000 kms per year so a hybrid is not cost effective
for me. People need to do their own comparisons. Some people value clean
air. As soon as the tax system is reformed to penalize polluting vehicles
here, the hybrids will have major economic advantages.
Probably not a good thing to assume with new technology like this. I
expect that the extra quality control and testing will make the quality
ratings break even with the normal vehicles at best, particluarly with
the low volume hybrid cars. Do you realize that Toyota only sold about
4,000 Prius' last year?

Likely because they're limiting their quality control costs.
People have been saying this for the past 30 years, and I don't believe
this any more now than I did last year, or the year before, or the year
before that, etc. . . .

Which is why SUV and truck sales continue.
According to my figures, I didn't even buy $700 worth of gas for all of
my driving last year -- or any other year. My credit card company
reports that I have bought $252 of gasoline so far this year (that
doesn't include the $20 in fuel rebates I received from BP/Amoco
recently). Even adjusting that amount to make it comparable with the
CAN$, it would be impossible for me to save $700 unless I didn't drive
at all. No hybrid needed for that.

Which is why I always promote lowering consumption as a tool to keep
your costs down - it is very effective.
 
Dave Null Sr. said:
Which is why I always promote lowering consumption as a tool to keep
your costs down - it is very effective.

I agree, but it seems to be an alien concept to way too much of our
population. TV stations trying to make news are having a field day with
runaway gas prices here in SoCal, and only one thing seems to be
constant with the attitude of people interviewed: "I can't afford these
prices, but no way am I gonna get rid of my gas hog or cut back on my
driving." With that kind of attitude, is there any solution until we run
out completely?

Rick
 
That's funny. They took the same attitude over the rolling blackouts. New
power plants were needed to be built, but "not in my backyard" attitude
prevailed.

Just an observation.
 
Using today's average gas price here, the typical 20k kms per year
and city consumption (the hybrid forte), yearly gas costs are:

Civic Si (gas only) $1456
Civic Hybrid $892
Insight $710
Prius $728


Hybrids are most effective in city driving -- lots of stop-and-go. This is
the environment where internal combustion engines are least efficient. Here
in the US most people (not all) tend to drive longer distances at constant
speeds. I know I do. Hybrids lose their advantage in such long-distance
driving. This is why they're so much more popular in Japan and congested
parts of Europe than here in the United States. I'm not trying to dismiss
the benefits of hybrids, just to put those benefits into a realistic
context. The benefit a particular person will see from a hybrid depends a
great deal on the type of driving he does. And my mother owns a Prius, so
I'm not talking *completely* out of my butt here.

- Greg Reed
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
13,889
Messages
67,365
Members
7,364
Latest member
Cimarron49

Latest Threads

Back
Top