How to tell if there is a head gasket leak (Legacy 2.5)?

[Vanguard]

Mom just got a 2002 Legacy 2.5L wagon. Extremely nice condition and passed
with flying colors both by the dealer's mechanics (it's a certified used
car) and also took it to an certified car shop (all are master mechanics) to
pay for a comprehensive inspection (took 4 hours). However, there have been
several owners that ended up with the head gasket leak problem. One
solution is the Subaru coolant additive (which probably acts like a sealer
on small leaks). My aunt has a 2003 Legacy L Wagon also with the 2.5 engine
and hasn't had a problem.

She didn't get the dealer's extended warranty "plus" policy (that would
include the head gaskets) and which only lasts a year. It costs $800.
There's only the 1-month, 1,000-mile limited warranty and they said she
could get the extended warranty before that expires so the price doesn't go
up. It would be pretty tough for mom to cough up another $800 and I'm not
in a position to help.

I'm wondering if there would be tell-tale signs of a head gasket leak. I've
seen some posts where the user mentioned smelling coolant through the dash
vents, but that's probably the smell from the spewage out the overflow tank
when the gasket leaks gas into the coolant cavities to overpressurize it so
it gets pushed into the overflow tank and out of it. The dealer detailed
the car so there would be no evidence of coolant leaks on the engine. There
weren't any leaks spotted by the car shop.

Would there be any way to find any tell-tale signs of leakage before
catastrophic demage? Would there be any evidence of coolant in the engine
oil? Would a small leak keep pushing up the level in the coolant overflow
tank, or maybe repeated loss of coolant level in the radiator?

Obviously when researching a vehicle, the matches that turn up would be
about users complaining about problems, not of users extolling their
satisfaction. So it's hard to guage how many of the 2.5 engines are having
the gasket leak. I talked to the car shop and they feel that the incidence
of leaks is too high to be normal (i.e., they see more Subaru 2.5 engines
with the problem than what would be considered average), but again that is
just one shop's experience and a sampling population of 1 car shop is tough
to accept as a solid indicator of probability, but there are those users
complaining about their woes, too.

 

[DG]

It's safe to say that there is a head gasket issue on these cars. Look
carefully along the junction of each head and the block on its underside,
especially the driver's side firewall closest to the firewall. If you see
any oil or coolant there, that spells trouble. It can leak externally well
before there is an internal leak that would show up in your cooling system
as vapors or worse.

 

[Josh Assing]

the 2.5 is known for headgasket leaks.
In fact subaru's "fix" is to include "stop leak" at regular intervals.

Most 2.5 gaskets leak coolant OUTSIDE (as opposed to into the cyl. walls or oil.

I know a few people that swapped the 2.5 for 2.2 to be done with it.

Keep an eye on the garage floor, check the oil & coolant levels regularly.

Mom just got a 2002 Legacy 2.5L wagon. Extremely nice condition and passed
with flying colors both by the dealer's mechanics (it's a certified used
car) and also took it to an certified car shop (all are master mechanics) to
pay for a comprehensive inspection (took 4 hours). However, there have been
several owners that ended up with the head gasket leak problem. One
solution is the Subaru coolant additive (which probably acts like a sealer
on small leaks). My aunt has a 2003 Legacy L Wagon also with the 2.5 engine
and hasn't had a problem.

She didn't get the dealer's extended warranty "plus" policy (that would
include the head gaskets) and which only lasts a year. It costs $800.
There's only the 1-month, 1,000-mile limited warranty and they said she
could get the extended warranty before that expires so the price doesn't go
up. It would be pretty tough for mom to cough up another $800 and I'm not
in a position to help.

I'm wondering if there would be tell-tale signs of a head gasket leak. I've
seen some posts where the user mentioned smelling coolant through the dash
vents, but that's probably the smell from the spewage out the overflow tank
when the gasket leaks gas into the coolant cavities to overpressurize it so
it gets pushed into the overflow tank and out of it. The dealer detailed
the car so there would be no evidence of coolant leaks on the engine. There
weren't any leaks spotted by the car shop.

Would there be any way to find any tell-tale signs of leakage before
catastrophic demage? Would there be any evidence of coolant in the engine
oil? Would a small leak keep pushing up the level in the coolant overflow
tank, or maybe repeated loss of coolant level in the radiator?

Obviously when researching a vehicle, the matches that turn up would be
about users complaining about problems, not of users extolling their
satisfaction. So it's hard to guage how many of the 2.5 engines are having
the gasket leak. I talked to the car shop and they feel that the incidence
of leaks is too high to be normal (i.e., they see more Subaru 2.5 engines
with the problem than what would be considered average), but again that is
just one shop's experience and a sampling population of 1 car shop is tough
to accept as a solid indicator of probability, but there are those users
complaining about their woes, too.

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[John Rethorst]

It's safe to say that there is a head gasket issue on these cars.

Google < subaru "head gasket" leak > and get 16,000 hits. I bought my '01
Outback in Sept. 04 with 36,000 miles. At about 40k the dealer noticed the leak
during an oil change and replaced it. The service mgr. said they expect this to
happen.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

It's safe to say that there is a head gasket issue on these cars.

Google < subaru "head gasket" leak > and get 16,000 hits. I bought my '01
Outback in Sept. 04 with 36,000 miles. At about 40k the dealer noticed the leak
during an oil change and replaced it. The service mgr. said they expect this to
happen.
[/QUOTE]

toyota "head gasket" leak = 42,900
toyota sludge problem = 91,000

doesn't prove anything. some of those sites are trying to SELL a head
gasket for your car. AND leak stop or something

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[Michael Pardee]

Google < subaru "head gasket" leak > and get 16,000 hits. I bought my '01
Outback in Sept. 04 with 36,000 miles. At about 40k the dealer noticed
the leak during an oil change and replaced it. The service mgr. said they
expect this to happen.

toyota "head gasket" leak = 42,900
toyota sludge problem = 91,000

doesn't prove anything. some of those sites are trying to SELL a head
gasket for your car. AND leak stop or something

Carl
1 Lucky Texan
[/QUOTE]
"alien abduction" = 740,000 ;-)

Mike

 

[Mickey]

Mom just got a 2002 Legacy 2.5L wagon. Extremely nice condition and
passed with flying colors both by the dealer's mechanics (it's a
certified used car) and also took it to an certified car shop (all are
master mechanics) to pay for a comprehensive inspection (took 4 hours).
However, there have been several owners that ended up with the head
gasket leak problem. One solution is the Subaru coolant additive (which
probably acts like a sealer on small leaks). My aunt has a 2003 Legacy
L Wagon also with the 2.5 engine and hasn't had a problem.

She didn't get the dealer's extended warranty "plus" policy (that would
include the head gaskets) and which only lasts a year. It costs $800.
There's only the 1-month, 1,000-mile limited warranty and they said she
could get the extended warranty before that expires so the price doesn't
go up. It would be pretty tough for mom to cough up another $800 and
I'm not in a position to help.

I'm wondering if there would be tell-tale signs of a head gasket leak.
I've seen some posts where the user mentioned smelling coolant through
the dash vents, but that's probably the smell from the spewage out the
overflow tank when the gasket leaks gas into the coolant cavities to
overpressurize it so it gets pushed into the overflow tank and out of
it. The dealer detailed the car so there would be no evidence of
coolant leaks on the engine. There weren't any leaks spotted by the car
shop.

Would there be any way to find any tell-tale signs of leakage before
catastrophic demage? Would there be any evidence of coolant in the
engine oil? Would a small leak keep pushing up the level in the coolant
overflow tank, or maybe repeated loss of coolant level in the radiator?

Obviously when researching a vehicle, the matches that turn up would be
about users complaining about problems, not of users extolling their
satisfaction. So it's hard to guage how many of the 2.5 engines are
having the gasket leak. I talked to the car shop and they feel that the
incidence of leaks is too high to be normal (i.e., they see more Subaru
2.5 engines with the problem than what would be considered average), but
again that is just one shop's experience and a sampling population of 1
car shop is tough to accept as a solid indicator of probability, but
there are those users complaining about their woes, too.

From what I was told it was during the 2002 model yr the last HG went
into production and in general most HG problem disappeared after that.
You might want to follow that lead with a conversation with a Subie
dealer/shop. For the engine of that yr that had Hg problems, the leak
was typ left side rear cyl. On my 2000 I could see where coolant was
leaking slowly but did show up as drops on a couple bolts at the
bottom of the flywheel area.

Mickey

 

[Rick Courtright]

toyota "head gasket" leak = 42,900
toyota sludge problem = 91,000

doesn't prove anything. some of those sites are trying to SELL a head

Good point, Carl!

Further googling leads to:

Subaru head gasket leak--59900
Fiat head gasket leak--33600
Yugo head gasket leak--10800

So we are to believe Yugo's the best one out there?

Rick

 

[Vanguard]

Google < subaru "head gasket" leak > and get 16,000 hits. I bought my '01
Outback in Sept. 04 with 36,000 miles. At about 40k the dealer noticed
the leak during an oil change and replaced it. The service mgr. said they
expect this to happen.

toyota "head gasket" leak = 42,900
toyota sludge problem = 91,000

doesn't prove anything. some of those sites are trying to SELL a head
gasket for your car. AND leak stop or something[/QUOTE]


I get a lot fewer Google matches by entering a decent set of search terms.
For
http://www.google.com/search?q=+subaru++legacy++"head+gasket"++leak++"2.5",
there were 792 matches. A Google Groups search of
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+subaru +legacy +"head gasket" +leak +"2.5"
shows only 12 matches. Since I am interested only in the 2.5L engine in a
Legacy, I'd only be looking for reports on that car. Not many showed up for
matches. However, I assumed that the 2.5L was used in other models but
don't know which ones. Obviously you never get posts from folks extolling
that they had no leaks on a Subaru 2.5L for the entire life of the car so
you could guage how many incidences there are at what mileages and how many
occur in the population of Subary 2.5L owners.

We'll have to watch for coolant leaks and watch the radiator level (and
overflow tank level, too) to see if the problem crops up. I don't know if
the Subaru dealer put in the recommended coolant additive but will tell them
to add it. Presumably it is just their brand of a stop leak additive.

If the leak goes into the coolant system, would we hear gurgling from
bubbles in the coolant?

 

[Vanguard]

From what I was told it was during the 2002 model yr the last HG went into
production and in general most HG problem disappeared after that. You
might want to follow that lead with a conversation with a Subie
dealer/shop. For the engine of that yr that had Hg problems, the leak was
typ left side rear cyl. On my 2000 I could see where coolant was leaking
slowly but did show up as drops on a couple bolts at the bottom of the
flywheel area.

I saw some mention of Phase I and Phase II engines and that one had the
problem and the other didn't. However, I don't know how to differentiate
between the different phase models of the engine.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I get a lot fewer Google matches by entering a decent set of search
terms. For
http://www.google.com/search?q=+subaru++legacy++"head+gasket"++leak++"2.5",
there were 792 matches. A Google Groups search of
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+subaru +legacy +"head gasket" +leak +"2.5"
shows only 12 matches. Since I am interested only in the 2.5L engine in
a Legacy, I'd only be looking for reports on that car. Not many showed
up for matches. However, I assumed that the 2.5L was used in other
models but don't know which ones. Obviously you never get posts from
folks extolling that they had no leaks on a Subaru 2.5L for the entire
life of the car so you could guage how many incidences there are at what
mileages and how many occur in the population of Subary 2.5L owners.

We'll have to watch for coolant leaks and watch the radiator level (and
overflow tank level, too) to see if the problem crops up. I don't know
if the Subaru dealer put in the recommended coolant additive but will
tell them to add it. Presumably it is just their brand of a stop leak
additive.

If the leak goes into the coolant system, would we hear gurgling from
bubbles in the coolant?

NO ONE that I know of DENIES that a coupla generations of the 2.5L had a
disappoiningly high failure rate for HGs (late 90s - bad internal leaks
into the coolant, early 00s external weeping leaks, most notably on cars
in colder climates). I've read it was as high as 2-3%. Those failures
are completely different from 'user induced' falures regarding improper
coolant filling techniques - admittedly tricky on soobs AND OTHER CARS.

Of course, if it happens to YOU it's 100% Subarus fault for making crap,
and nowadays folks rush to the internet to complain about everything.

Subarus are not immune from problems. Neither are Toyotas or any other
car. My God - folks bought Jaguars for DECADES even when they
consistently won the 'most likely to strand you at the roadside'
surveys! I've read there is a spate of bad power steering pumps failing
in some Toyotas - happened to a friend of mine on a trip from cali. back
to D/FW. He was stuck in West texas and no part could be found, had to
return home in a loaner, go back to get the Toy, blah,blah. Does that
mean Toyotas are crap? Would you buy another one if it happened to you?

Carl

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I saw some mention of Phase I and Phase II engines and that one had the
problem and the other didn't. However, I don't know how to
differentiate between the different phase models of the engine.

I forget those details, but a search or posting at www.usmb.net would
be a good resource.

Carl

 

[Vanguard]

I forget those details, but a search or posting at www.usmb.net would be
a good resource.

Thanks for the site. I forgot about them.

Also, are the extended warranties worth their cost? I asked the dealer
specifically for a plan that would include both inner and outer gaskets
(i.e., to cover any head gasket leaks) and they came up with some "Plus"
plan that costs $800 for 1 year. Too much for mom so I'm trying to
determine if I can come up with it before the 1-month, 1000-mile warranty
expires (they said the price would go up if we got it later). Some folks
like them (that have used them) and others claim they are a waste of money.
But $800 upfront would be cheaper than $3000 later (but then $800 is a waste
if nothing happens). As with any insurance, you're betting there will be a
problem and the insurer is betting their won't.

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[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Thanks for the site. I forgot about them.

Also, are the extended warranties worth their cost? I asked the dealer
specifically for a plan that would include both inner and outer gaskets
(i.e., to cover any head gasket leaks) and they came up with some "Plus"
plan that costs $800 for 1 year. Too much for mom so I'm trying to
determine if I can come up with it before the 1-month, 1000-mile
warranty expires (they said the price would go up if we got it later).
Some folks like them (that have used them) and others claim they are a
waste of money. But $800 upfront would be cheaper than $3000 later (but
then $800 is a waste if nothing happens). As with any insurance, you're
betting there will be a problem and the insurer is betting their won't.

It's a gamble like any insurance policy. I say, put that $800 in a
special 'car' savings account, add to it occasionally. (say you change
you own oil, well, whatever it would cost you to have the dealer change
it, put that in the account when you do it.)
Likely, if something major happens, at least it will be partly offset by
those funds. If not - well, use it on a down payment on you next car or ???

I DID once own a Windstar van and the ext. warranty paid for itself 2.5
times over!



Carl

 

[Michael Pardee]

Further googling leads to:

Subaru head gasket leak--59900
Fiat head gasket leak--33600
Yugo head gasket leak--10800

So we are to believe Yugo's the best one out there?

Rick

I'm sure the Yugos out there rarely have head gasket leaks. They also have
rear window defrosters to keep your hands warm while you push ;-)

Mike

 

[ibuildthings]

One sure indicator of a leaky head gasket is milky colored oil. Check the
oil with the dipstick. If it looks milky, i.e. white substance, that is
coolant that crept throught a split in the gasket, and ended up in the oil.

Good luck.

 

[Mickey]

One sure indicator of a leaky head gasket is milky colored oil. Check the
oil with the dipstick. If it looks milky, i.e. white substance, that is
coolant that crept throught a split in the gasket, and ended up in the oil.

Good luck.

news:dub1it$ek1$(e-mail address removed)...

With the car in question, a SOHC design, the typ failure is coolant
leakage to the outside world, not internally.

Mickey

 

[Josh Assing]

One sure indicator of a leaky head gasket is milky colored oil. Check the
oil with the dipstick. If it looks milky, i.e. white substance, that is
coolant that crept throught a split in the gasket, and ended up in the oil.

the 2.5's mostly leak coolant OUT (not IN to the oil)


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[Vanguard]

the 2.5's mostly leak coolant OUT (not IN to the oil)

That's what it looks like is probably the case where the coolant leaks out.
Hopefully that it is the case because loss of coolant would be slow and
simply require periodic checks of the level in the radiator (or overflow
tank) rather than a sudden catastrophic expulsion by overpressurizing the
cooling system and pushing it into and out of the overflow tank.

Thanks for the tip on the milky white color on the engine oil dipstick. I
wasn't sure it would show up enough on just the dipstick to tell. Also,
when mom does oil changes, I tell her to ask the mechanic to check the oil
for coolant.

 

[John Rethorst]

toyota "head gasket" leak = 42,900
toyota sludge problem = 91,000

doesn't prove anything. some of those sites are trying to SELL a head
gasket for your car. AND leak stop or something

Not intended to prove anything, just indicate that there's discussion about the
issue.

There are more Toyotas on the road than Subies.