Do the Japanese or Germans make better cars?

[Harry Wilke]

Do the Germans or Japanese Make Better Cars?

by Trevor Hofmann, auto123.com / Canadian Auto Press (December 1, 2003)


German Study Turns Up Unexpected Response

German cars are better right? While that might hold some credence among
luxury car buyers, according to a consumer satisfaction survey compiled by
German automobile association ADAC, together with the Center for Automotive
Research (CAR), the majority of the fatherland's car owners disagree.

Altogether more than 38,000 German vehicle owners were asked how satisfied
they were with their car or SUV and the service its dealer provided, with
the results leaving domestic automakers Mercedes-Benz, Opel and Volkswagen
hardly topping the charts.

Contrarily, Japanese automakers swept one through seventh in owner
satisfaction. The only German automaker to break the top ten was Porsche.
Just like in North America, Japanese carmaker Toyota was the cream of the
crop with Subaru, Honda, Mazda and then Nissan taking the first five spots.

In North America, German and Japanese manufacturers experience similar
results. According to J.D. Powers and Associates 2003 Vehicle Dependability
Study (VDS), the top five positions are held first by Toyota's Lexus
nameplate, second by Nissan's Infiniti, third by GM's Buick division with
fourth held by the first German, once again Porsche. Fifth place goes to
Honda's Acura brand. Other than Porsche no German brands rank in the top 10.

Behind Porsche the highest rated German nameplate is BMW in 13th place, with
Audi next but much farther down the scale in 26th and Mercedes-Benz close
behind in a rather pathetic 27th out of 37 total automakers. Volkswagen, a
name once synonymous with reliability and owner satisfaction, ranks near the
bottom of the barrel in 33rd place.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The results for the local brands weren't favourable when
38,000 German)vehicle owners were surveryed about their consumer
satisfaction.
(Photo: Trevor Hofmann, Canadian Auto Press)





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just like in North America, Japanese carmaker Toyota was the cream of the
crop with Subaru, Honda, Mazda and then Nissan taking the first five spots.
(Photo: Trevor Hofmann, Canadian Auto Press)

 

[Joseph Meehan]

These reports are interesting, but should be considered carefully as to
their meaning.

"... more than 38,000 German vehicle owners were asked how satisfied
they were with their car or SUV and the service"

The results do not represent how good, or bad, the cars are, but it
represents how well they meet their owners expectations. Not exactly the
same thing. It may well be that the results also reflect quality, but that
should not be assumed.

 

[Harry Wilke]

If you read the article, it states that german vehicle owners were asked...

I wonder what the response would be if you asked american vehicle owners the
same question? In Vancouver, I can't help but notice that asians drive a
disproportionate amount of german and swedish cars.... mmmm do they know
something we don't? My guess it's a "grass is greener" mentality.

 

[Randolph]

J. D. Power and Associates ask American car owners those kinds of
questions on a regular basis, and the Japanese vehicles come out on top
in the US as well. I'd still pick a Golf over a Corolla any day.

 

[L. Kreh]

Price?!?! It's easier to make a great car for $50,000 (i.e., German)
than it is for $25,000 (i.e., Japanese). Moreover, it's easier to
ignore minor quality problems in the $25,000 price range than it is in
the $50,000 price range. In my mind, the survey is meaningless if
they didn't vehicles in the same price range.

LK

 

[Felix Crashalot]

What's a better car? Aside from size and cargo considerations:
a) a car that is pleasant to drive
b) a car that is reliable?
c) a car that looks good?
d) a car that is more affordable for the same features?
e) all these answers are good.

The bug is that no car has "e" as an answer. The Legacy 2005 is a good
step in this direction! Will it pass the "d"?

IMHO, european cars are stronger in "a", japanese cars are in "b",
american cars try to be "d", and koreans are "d".

Every Volks owner that I know likes his car, but everyone also has a
long list of troubles and repairs. The latest generations of Mercedes
look very good. There's a dealer two blocks from my home. I see many
new Mercedes being towed to the garage. German manufacturers don't
admit that they make mistakes. The result is cars that exhibit the
same trouble model after model. Remember the valve sleeves on the
Rabbit? Oil consumption became a feature in a Volks. On Golfs, the
manual said something like a quart of oil per 1000 miles was
considered normal.

Honestly but I'd like to see a reliable car from one of the big three.

 

[imaginuity]

trebant is German

 

[Tom Resi]

TrAbant wAs East German

 

[Lance B]

TrAbant wAs East German

To Harry Wilke,

Asians who are not Japanese are the only ones who do not like to buy
Japanese cars. Chinese, buy German cars because they still did not
like what the Japanese did to them in WW2. Koreans do not like the
Japanese at all. Alot of Asian countries do not get along together.
Just because they are Asian doesn't mean they stick together and only
buy Asian cars. That is just plain silly. Do you buy German cars just
because they NOT Asian? I don't think so (I would hope not anyway).

To L.Kreh,

In Germany, a BMW or Mercedes does not cost $50,000 and a Japanese car
cost $25,000. BMW's & Merc's are cheap in Germany, like GM, Ford etc
are cheap in the US, so, when they compare a BMW to a Japanese car in
Germany (with import duties and freight etc) the prices are similar
(with the correct model). They use BMW's and Mercs as taxis in Germany
they're so cheap.

Germans are renowned for making technologically advanced, safe, well
made cars, but the Japanese have caught up. Look at the latest
offerings from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru. I have just bought
the NEW Outback H6 3.0R here in Oz. Superb car. This 3lt motor puts
out 240+hp. This is standard level BMW type advancement for a motor of
this size (not including the M3 of course which costs 3 times as
much). The Liberty/Legacy GT (2lt turbo 240+hp) would compare with any
BMW of twice the price here in Oz. I know as I've driven both
extensively. Wheels magazine (Oz publication) said that "the
Liberty/Legacy GT was possibly one of the best touring cars ever".

The perception of BMW's and Mercedes being the "best" cars is a legacy
(no pun intended) left over from years ago when they WERE far superior
to the Japanese or any other make of cars. This is no longer the case.
The Japanese have caught up and now produce cars of equal or better
quality for a cheaper price. Face facts and get over it!

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

The Asian community most prevalent in my part of the country (Texas) is
mostly made up of 1st and 2nd generation Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai and
some Cambodian and they GREATLY prefer high end Japanese (branded) cars
- Lexus and Toyota especially.

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[Ron]

Tom Resi <(e-mail address removed)> wrote in message

To Harry Wilke,

Asians who are not Japanese are the only ones who do not like to buy
Japanese cars. Chinese, buy German cars because they still did not
like what the Japanese did to them in WW2. Koreans do not like the
Japanese at all. Alot of Asian countries do not get along together.
Just because they are Asian doesn't mean they stick together and only
buy Asian cars. That is just plain silly. Do you buy German cars just
because they NOT Asian? I don't think so (I would hope not anyway).

To L.Kreh,

In Germany, a BMW or Mercedes does not cost $50,000 and a Japanese car
cost $25,000. BMW's & Merc's are cheap in Germany, like GM, Ford etc
are cheap in the US, so, when they compare a BMW to a Japanese car in
Germany (with import duties and freight etc) the prices are similar
(with the correct model). They use BMW's and Mercs as taxis in Germany
they're so cheap.

Germans are renowned for making technologically advanced, safe, well
made cars, but the Japanese have caught up. Look at the latest
offerings from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru. I have just bought
the NEW Outback H6 3.0R here in Oz. Superb car. This 3lt motor puts
out 240+hp. This is standard level BMW type advancement for a motor of
this size (not including the M3 of course which costs 3 times as
much). The Liberty/Legacy GT (2lt turbo 240+hp) would compare with any
BMW of twice the price here in Oz. I know as I've driven both
extensively. Wheels magazine (Oz publication) said that "the
Liberty/Legacy GT was possibly one of the best touring cars ever".

The perception of BMW's and Mercedes being the "best" cars is a legacy
(no pun intended) left over from years ago when they WERE far superior
to the Japanese or any other make of cars. This is no longer the case.
The Japanese have caught up and now produce cars of equal or better
quality for a cheaper price. Face facts and get over it!

Funny, when I visited Japan a few years ago, the Police
drove Mercedes...They said they were built to last... Whereas
the Japanese cars in general, were disposed of after 2 or so years...
The government mandated inspection & emissions testing made it
impractical to keep a vehicle over a few years old. I think it was
something like, the 1st year, govt paid 100%, next year, they paid 75%,
next year 50%, next 25%, next 0%, and by that time, 4-5k
for inspections/testing was the norm.

 

[Dermott]

2001 Jetta GLS automatic. Bought the car mainly because it appeared
to be the heaviest car in it's group and the safety features. Last
Thursday our daughter was broadsided on the drivers side by a 4 door
Chevy Blazer.

Fortunately no one was hurt. Both she and the other young girl are
okay. Rear right wheel bent, doors bent. Front and rear bumper
covers ripped off. Three airbags deployed the car. She felt her head
hit the side airbag that drops from the side/top. All she felt was a
little pull from the seat belt.

The quality is okay, a few problems but nothing big.

The car did what it was supposed to do..she's fine.

We'll fix it and yes when the time comes, we'll buy another one.
Nothing like success to get a happy customer!

 

[Bruce Hoult]

Funny, when I visited Japan a few years ago, the Police
drove Mercedes...They said they were built to last... Whereas
the Japanese cars in general, were disposed of after 2 or so years...
The government mandated inspection & emissions testing made it
impractical to keep a vehicle over a few years old. I think it was
something like, the 1st year, govt paid 100%, next year, they paid 75%,
next year 50%, next 25%, next 0%, and by that time, 4-5k
for inspections/testing was the norm.

That's why car dealers from New Zealand go to Japan, buy up 3 - 5 year
old high spec cars with 50,000 - 100,000 km for next to nothing, bring
them to NZ, sell them for mostly US$3k - US$6k, and we happily run our
reliable & cheap used cars for another 100,000 - 150,000 km.

Thank you, Japanese Government!

-- Bruce

 

[L. Kreh]

LB,

For the most part, you missed my point, which was that you'll get a
different level of feedback from a customer that's critiquing a $25K
car versus a $50K car. A survey that doesn't even the playing field
by factoring in price is a pointless survey. That's it.

I didn't say "BMW and Mercedes are the best," much less that one class
of cars is better than another. That's coming from you, not me.

-LK

 

[Lance B]

LB,

For the most part, you missed my point, which was that you'll get a
different level of feedback from a customer that's critiquing a $25K
car versus a $50K car. A survey that doesn't even the playing field
by factoring in price is a pointless survey. That's it.

I didn't say "BMW and Mercedes are the best," much less that one class
of cars is better than another. That's coming from you, not me.

-LK

No, I didn't miss the point. A Japanese car imported into Germany is
thrust into a higher price bracket in comparison to the locally made
product. A 318i BMW in Australia costs around AU$55,000 and a Subaru
2.5i Premium Liberty (Legacy)costs around AU$46,000. In Germany these
prices would be reversed as the Liberty has higher import duty into
Germany than Australia and the BMW has no import duty or any other
taxes as it is made in Germany. Therefore the Subaru could concievably
be more expensive than the BMW. This would apply to all levels of
vehicles sold into Germany.

Now, when you say the customer is critiqing a $25,000 car to a $50,000
car it is more likely in Germany that the import is the dearer of the
two. Further more, why would a customer be critiquing that level of
difference in a car. Generally when people are purchasing/critiquing a
car it is on the same cost basis. Why would anyone normally look at a
$50,000 car when they can only afford a $25,000 car, or look at a
$25,000 car when what they really want is a $50,000 car. I would even
say that the survey would only critique cars of similar value in
Germany.

So, my point is that, no one would critique a $25k car to a $50k car
and when comparing cars IN GERMANY of the same value a car like the
Liberty/Legacy would be of similar value to a BMW 318i and therefore
the survey reflects that the Subaru has a better customer satisfaction
result.

 

[Randolph]

product. A 318i BMW in Australia costs around AU$55,000 and a Subaru

2.5i Premium Liberty (Legacy)costs around AU$46,000. In Germany these
prices would be reversed.

The prices certainly would be reversed.

According to the price list in the 2003 edition of Automobil Revue, the
price of a BMW 318i in Germany is EUR 25,800. The Legacy 2.5 GX (the
only 2.5 l Legacy sedan listed) is EUR 29,340.

 

[Tom Resi]

So you sayn' when I decided that my spending limit for a car is $25k
I'll be less demanding at the quality dept. than if I'll decided for the
$50k limit. So I'll complain less for the lower price. Is that you're
driving your life?
I say you're dead wrong!
Same would go for only $15k.

 

[L. Kreh]

Your post is absurd. Where are you getting this "318i BMW" versus
"Subaru 2.5i Premium Liberty (Legacy)" argument? Obviously, as you've
shown, if spend enough time at it, you can find a comparably priced
BMW and Subaru in Germany. But this doesn't disprove my point.
Indeed, these aren't the only cars compared in the survey. Porsche
was compared to Subaru in the survey. Is that relevant? How about a
relevant comparison between a 7 series BMW and a Subaru?

 

[Hawksoob]

Newbie here...be kind.

They both make fabulous autos, but I do believe there is a difference
in manufacturing philosophy depending on the culture. Just a theory
(based mostly on personal experience with my own 96 Outback and my
girlfriend's VW Cabrio, so it may or may not be way off base in the
grand scheme of things.):
In the past, the most I'd ever done on a car myself, outside of pump
gas into it, is change an air filter....snap snap snap snap swap,
reverse. When Pep Boys estimated $65 to replace a fuel filter on my
OBW, I thought that was pretty absurd, so I decided to look into it
and see just what kinds of things I can do for myself and save some
$$$. Of course the filter was about 15 bucks and I could do it in
about 10 minutes with the help of a Haynes and a few NG postings.
Cool. I got it done for 1/4 the cost. In the last month I've gone from
knowing nothing about this stuff to having swapped said fuel filter,
changed my own oil and oil filter(sooooooo easy on the OBW. Didn't
even have to jack it up. Can't believe I've wasted so much money the
last oh so many years at Jiffy Screw etc.), replaced the PCV valve
(OK...no biggy) and replaced the knock sensor. So, basically, I have
done all that stuff to my car for about what it would have cost for
Pep Boys to replace the fuel filter. I have discovered that, for the
most part, I can maintain my Suby with the backside of a butter knife
and a cotton swab.

Change scenes to my girlfriend's Cabrio:

Can't even get to the air filter to see if it needs to be changed,
much less change it. A number of other things have to be removed just
to get the housing open...unless you aren't too fond of your knuckles
and weren't going to be using them anyway. Dealer or other mechanic
has to do it. The more I looked into it, the more I realized how many
other things are like that on her car. (Can't imagine what the cost
would be. Dealer would most assuredly sell you an OEM filter and would
probably charge for 1/2 hour labor....so, what, $50, $60, $70 to R/R
an air filter?)

My understanding is that the Japanese design cars and other mechanical
products to just last. You can do the maintenance if you must (and, of
course, you should) but if you don't you'll get only slightly less
life out of it. Germans seem to make autos and other products that
need constant tweaking and maintenance by competent professionals.
They will last and maintain peak performance if you do this. They will
require expensive repairs if not. My owner's manual gives instruction
about how to do a number of things yourself, including changing oil,
drain/refill coolant, swap out light bulbs ... even align the
headlights. Her manual says to have everything done by the dealer,
even replacing headlight bulbs. They don't want you touching ANYTHING.

In the retail photo business I have discovered this to be true in 1
hour photo lab printers. Noritsu printers just go and go and are
maintained very inexpensively. I've had employees fix them in the past
with a hammer! Agfa printers require regular (expensive) maintenance,
often requiring a $150/hour technician, and if it is not perforemd in
a timely fashion, MAJOR repairs are due. You VILL pay!

Point is, since the Germans seem to make maintenance so difficult and
expensive and, at a minimum, inconvenient, it might be done less often
than needed, at which point reliability issues come into play. Plus,
in a gogogo society, said inconvenience could affect overall
satisfaction with the product.

My 2 cents....may not even be worth that....

 

[Aron]

I wouldn't give much merrit to a study or survey that puts Buick in
the top 3 in dependability. We are talking about cars that
spontaneously shut off on the highway, sometime spontaneously turning
back on before you have to stop. We are talking about having to
replace intake manifold gaskets that are leaking coolant into the
engine. The list goes on. Aren't Acura, Honda, and Subaru much more
dependable than that?